• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Fahrenheit 9/11

hedgewizard said:
The West is certainly not the best possible world. But is certainly beats whatever else is available. And if the West is so very bad, and the alternatives are so very nice, why are people literally dying to get here? Where's the massive emmigration from Europe and the US to Africa and Asia?
People are indeed so desperate to reach the honey pots of the West, that they will risk death and enslavement to reach it.

If you think really hard about what you've just written, then you'll find that the answer is probably there in the question. They're just following the rest of the natural resources and produce from their lands.

And, there are no alternatives, as you've said yourself.
 
hedgewizard said:
Sorry, AM, but the free market economy is the only one that works. Socialist economies eventually founder. Ask the Soviets, ask the Cubans, ask the Swedes. Look at the UK. China is surviving as a limited free market. This isn't theory, this is stone simple fact.

You can dismiss it as the La-La-Land of economic theory, but that doesn't matter. Your opinion cannot change the fact that a hands-off, free market appraoch works, and works well. Read the history of Hong Kong. Cowperthwaite was strictly laissez-faire (sp?) and that produce the economic wonder of the century. Don't tell me it's all theory. The harshed laboratory in existence, the real world, proves otherwise.

We don't have Laissez-faire economies though do we? In Europe and the US we subsidise our farmers to the extent that people in the thir world can't compete with us. We also have monopolies and mergers comissions to keep competition going artificially.

Plus private enterprise often fails to deliver - the state of Britains railways being a case in point.
 
Re: Re: Re: yep! sure does hedgewizard

lopaka said:
Trying to (semi) bring this back on-topic to the film, it seems like you might be the only person on the MB who's actually seen it so far. If you're up to it (and I wouldn't blame you if you're not), could you give us a thumbnail of your impressions, experience viewing it?

It's opening in my town tomorrow night, and I do plan on seeing it and posting my reaction here. I've talked to four people who've seen it already, all, like myself, pre-disposed to wanting to like it a lot. They seem to have thought it was good, but not great. They did apparently get some *energy* from it though. (Kind of like going to a demonstration: You don't go in order to change anyone's mind, but rather get a buzz from gathering with like-minded folks and going back out into the world to effect change there.)
If your friends meant it wasn't "great" because it wasn't as funny as his previous movies, then I agree, but then I wasn't in any mood for laughter when I was watching it anyway. I didn't feel energized, I felt sick to my stomach (which isn't meant as a complaint, as I think that's the only appropriate way to feel after viewing a movie like this).

I felt sick to see the Bush's being all buddy-buddy with the bin laden's; I felt sick to see young American men and woman my own age being used as canon fodder when I'm sure many of them would have chosen go to college over going to invade Iraq if they could afford to; I felt sick to see Iraqi civilians blown to bits especially since they were portrayed as actual, feeling, flesh-and-blood human beings rather than simply "collateral damage." I felt sick for a number of other reasons but those were the main ones.
 
Well I’ve just been to see it.

As some background to my appraisal I’ve only seen one other Michael Moore movie which was Roger and Me, and I’m aware of some of the work he did with the BBC on TV Nation. Politically, he is to the left of where I (and probably most) stand. He seems to eschew a type of socialism which has pretty much been consigned to history, however the greater point made by him is that the balance is currently wrong. For me, we probably disagree on exactly how wrong. It is possible to buy into the larger points made rather than agreeing with Moore on the minutiae of what he says, which is important for the right wing bashers to understand, if they so wish.

I was half expecting a Republican lynch mob waiting outside the theatre for anyone who dared go in, and when buying a ticket, since I live in a Republican stronghold, I couldn’t help feeling like I was asking for a ticket to a porno, that I should feel guilty about it. I was also expecting the theatre to be empty with just me in there, but for a weekday matinee it was extremely well attended by a good mix of young and old, black and white.

On the whole, it is a superbly edited piece and its satirical humour is very effective and very funny, laugh out loud funny in fact. It does dredge up some of the old chestnuts, i.e. Florida 2000, and spends a chunk of time poking fun at Bush, belittling him rather than inspiring hatred. But the material on show is not necessarily the product of clever editing or removing things from context because what is on show is rather blatant.
Overall, it obviously did little to change my opinion, but the points I took away were

1) The clear conflict of interest between the War on Terrorism (I refuse to call it a War on Terror because it’s a meaningless soundbite) and the Bush family and indeed the administration’s ties with Saudi Arabia.
2) The manipulation of government funds by private companies
3) The amazing U turn by the Bush administration over whether Iraq was a threat or not post and pre 9/11.
4) The idea that 9/11 was used as an opportunity to implement policies long coveted by Republicans, rather than those which provided any genuine worth in progressing the War on Terrorism.
5) That war should only be undertaken when absolutely necessary, as opposed to its use as a piece of economic opportunism.

These are the key points to focus on whether you support or believe Moore or not. The Bush “bashing” in the movie one can take or leave. The sobbing parents of dead servicemen are also rather shameless attempts to tug the heartstrings, but the footage of the dead civilians, servicemen, and the routine stop and search of an Iraqi home with its terrified family within is something all Americans need to see, but our media chooses not to show. I was reminded of the British forces in Northern Ireland conducting similar intrusive efforts which did so much to direct Irish Republican hatred towards the British.
It is largely irrelevant whether or not Bush took x% vacation during his term. What is important, is the idea that Saudi Arabia owns a significant chunk of America, and as a result of protecting its most valued investor, there is a compelling argument that the War on Terrorism is a far too tiny piece of what is currently occurring in the Middle East.
 
Military, 9/11 families call on Bush to see Michael Moore movie

By DEEPTI HAJELA
The Associated Press
6/30/2004, 2:54 p.m. ET


NEW YORK (AP) — President Bush and everyone in Washington should screen Michael Moore's controversial anti-Bush film "Fahrenheit 9/11," a group of military and 9/11 families said Wednesday.


"What we want to say is how important Michael Moore's movie is ... in bringing back the ability to have a dialogue" about the issues surrounding the war," said Nancy Lessin of the group Military Families Speak Out, whose stepson is a Marine.

"What we're trying to do here is to tell the administration ... not only see it but then come out ... and explain why this happened, why we went to Iraq and why 9/11 happened," said Ivan Medina, a former Marine from Middletown, N.Y., who served in Iraq and whose twin brother Irving was killed there.

Moore's movie is highly critical of Bush and the decision to go to war in Iraq. It took in .9 million last weekend to become the first documentary to debut as Hollywood's top weekend film.

The movie won the top prize at the Cannes Film Festival in May. But its release here has been anything but smooth sailing. New distributors had to be found after Disney refused to let its Miramax subsidiary release it, claiming it was too politically charged. The documentary was later bought by Miramax heads Harvey and Bob Weinstein, who found Lions Gate Films and IFC Films to help distribute it.

Conservative groups have tried to mobilize the public against the film, arguing that Moore's portrayal of the Bush administration is inaccurate. Speakers at Wednesday's news conference were critical of those efforts.

"I'm disappointed that the movie would be attacked just because (Moore) wants to consider the questions," said April Gallop, a Pentagon employee injured in the 9/11 attacks.

http://www.silive.com/newsflash/metro/index.ssf?/base/news-9/1088621950158920.xml
 
Moore movie prompts more political debate

Connie Cone Sexton
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 1, 2004 12:00 AM

Phoenix resident Jon Barker had pretty much made up his mind on who would get his vote for president.

Seeing the red-hot Fahrenheit 9/11 on Tuesday night sealed the deal.

Dustin Riley, 18, caught the film the same night at a Scottsdale theater. The Republican emerged shaking his head but calling filmmaker Michael Moore a "master at wordplay."

Chandler resident Brian Johnson, 47, went just to see what all the controversy was about.

With T-minus four months to the Nov. 2 election, moviegoers are flocking to the film, breaking records along the way. Fahrenheit's debut weekend drew in .5 million, making it the highest-grossing documentary in history, with filmmaker Moore even surpassing his earlier smash, Bowling for Columbine. And with a three-day weekend at hand, theater owners are bowing to the demand.

Nationwide, the movie is expanding from 868 to 1,710 theaters.

Spider-Man 2's opening may slightly cool the Fahrenheit frenzy, but the pending election should keep the political film a top ticket.

Voters are waking up to the looming election and are focusing on the main choices for president: Republican incumbent George Bush or Democrat John Kerry, a senator from Massachusetts. And many are rushing to see the film like they're cramming for a final exam.

There is still so much uncertainty among many Americans about the war in Iraq "and whether we should still be there," said Joe Foote, a professor in the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Arizona State University. "With the run-up to the presidential election, anyone who is politically involved would want to see this movie, including those who are undecided but have heard things about it."

Pop culture prompting more interest in politics? "I think it's a positive development," Foote said, especially if "entertainment media spurs somebody's curiosity and makes them seek information."

Keith Olbermann, who hosts Countdown With Keith Olbermann on MSNBC, thinks the most likely impact on voters probably won't be on those politically astute people who see the film, who probably have their minds made up anyway, but on undecided, underinformed people who catch the movie because it's a box-office attraction.

"They may be substantially influenced," he said.

Valley residents this weekend will find it easier to catch the film.

Dan Harkins, chief executive and owner of Harkins Theatres, is adding five more screens, bringing the total to 13. He is confident that Fahrenheit 9/11 will match its total from last weekend.

"I think this baby is going to stay even in the second week," he said.

Harkins said he received a half-dozen letters supporting his decision to show the film. He said he never considered passing on the movie, though one angry letter writer threatened to boycott his theaters.

The documentary label has generated debate, with some critics charging that Moore didn't provide a balanced look at Bush. Moore doesn't hide his outrage at the president as he gives the film's narration.

Despite the debate, Harkins said he is "always going to show it."

"I think moviegoers have a right to see it and make their own decision," he said. "And furthermore, I think moviegoers are intelligent enough to make their own decision."

For 20-year-old Jon Barker, seeing the film was a mode of research. "It saved me hours looking up information on the Internet," the ASU education major said. "It put it into perspective."

His choice for president? Barker, a registered independent, is giving his vote to Kerry.

Riley, the 18-year-old Valley resident who questioned Moore's filmmaking methods, didn't think Moore said anything false.

"He's a master at wordplay. He's great at taking clips and quotes to twist and display what he wants to get across. And it's convenient that this is happening in an election year. My friends are all arguing about it."

Johnson, a Democrat, is supporting Kerry. His take on the Moore film? "There are very few non-biased documentaries."

Only a handful of calls complaining about the movie has come in to the Republican Party headquarters in Phoenix.

"They are calling to vent frustrations, not really (to) ask questions," spokesman Colin McCracken, 22, said. "A lot of people are perceiving the movie as nothing but a two-hour attack."

McCracken said he is curious about the movie and plans to see it. "I'll have to see it during a matinee. I can't justify paying full price."

He understands the allure of the film. "It's creating a buzz, and that's what people want to see."

Registered Republicans Jeff and Karen Miller of Scottsdale were not impressed. They caught a showing Monday night.

They support Bush and did not applaud, like some moviegoers have been, during the closing credits.

"When people started clapping, it made me nauseous," said Jeff, 40. "It was obvious that almost the entire audience were people who subscribe to Moore's point of view. Although there were some things I didn't know about, the movie showed extremely poor taste."

Karen, 38, said that she saw one man get up and leave. "I thought about walking out, too, but I wanted to see where Moore was going with this."

Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano gave Fahrenheit 9/11 two thumbs up.

You might think that's a predictable review considering that Napolitano is a Democrat and has been frequently mentioned by pundits as a possible running mate for Kerry.

But Napolitano said she liked the film more because it was well-made, rather than for its relentless attack on Bush, adding, "Regardless of your political persuasion, it's just a good movie."

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0701fahrenheit911.html
 
I didn't manage to see it yesterday, so a review will have to wait until the weekend. My morning paper noted that despite the fact it had already been playing on multiple screens in the large city to our east for 5 days, last night shattered the single-day gross for the art theater here in town. My friend in Fargo, North Dakota (not exactly a hotbed of radicalism or anti-Bush sentiment) tried to get a ticket for yesterday and was told none were available until Sunday's showings.

The *buzz* (to use a hollywoodism) about Fahrenheit 9/11 is truly amazing for a political (documentary, non--fiction, op-ed, polemic, whatever you want to call it) movie.
 
Cynical thought....

Here's something to muse over. Let us suppose that you are the leader/ruler of a nation that has been targeted by bad guys. They've already made one very dramatic and successful foray against your people. Would you be willing to sacrifice some of your citizens (a very small fraction of the population, and trained in combat) in order to forestall another such attack?

Iraq is a focal point for every dingbat Muslim terrorist in the world. They can get there much more easily than they can the US. They have support systems already in place. They blend in with the locals. And there are Americans that they're EXPECTED to try to kill. Makes one wonder if Bush & Co (or their Freemason/Illuminati masters) haven't decided that losing a few soldiers to keep the terrorists focused away form the US is a worthwhile endeavor.

Not that I'm claiming this is the case, but it makes for interesting consideration.
 
Re: Cynical thought....

hedgewizard said:
Here's something to muse over. ...
...

Not that I'm claiming this is the case, but it makes for interesting consideration.
A cynical Fortean thought, indeed. However, the potential of the under developed OIL reserves in Iraq is so great that I don't think The present US Administration would have risked those on such a whim.

More likely is it, that the economic/strategic importance of Iraq itself, and its pivotal role in the control of the whole region, may have led to Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Rice, et al. having their collective eye too firmly set on the wrong prize.

Understandable, but badly wrong.

What's really worrying, in a paranoid Fortean sort of way, is the possibility that Bush jr. has listened to too many snake dancing , Charismatic, fundie preachers and dial-a-prophets and thinks he's, on a mission from God and is being instumental in hastening 'The Rapture' and 'The Apocalypse', as laid out in selected clippings from 'The Book of Revelations' and 'Daniel' (King James Version).

:eek:
 
Re: Re: Cynical thought....

Originally posted by AndroMan
A cynical Fortean thought, indeed. However, the potential of the under developed OIL reserves in Iraq is so great that I don't think The present US Administration would have risked those on such a whim.

Yep, it's a war for oil, all right. That's why Iraqis are paying pennies a gallon for gas, yet America's price is still at record highs. But we're going to steal their oil somehow. Just like we stole Kuwait's oil, right?


What's really worrying, in a paranoid Fortean sort of way, is the possibility that Bush jr. has listened to too many snake dancing , Charismatic, fundie preachers and dial-a-prophets and thinks he's, on a mission from God and is being instumental in hastening 'The Rapture' and 'The Apocalypse', as laid out in selected clippings from 'The Book of Revelations' and 'Daniel' (King James Version).

Or perhaps you just need to type less when you're drinking.
 
Re: Re: Re: Cynical thought....

Ogopogo said:
Yep, it's a war for oil, all right. That's why Iraqis are paying pennies a gallon for gas, yet America's price is still at record highs. But we're going to steal their oil somehow. Just like we stole Kuwait's oil, right?


...

Or perhaps you just need to type less when you're drinking.
How cruel, Ogopogo. :(

Perhaps, somebody else will relate to you, the history of how Iraq, Kuwait and Iran, came into being after the end of the First World War, out of the ashes of the old 'Ottoman Empire', as part of Britain and the USofA's realisation of how strategically important the region's 'OIL' reserves had become.

But, right now I'm just too hurt and still sober.

Now, I'm going out for a drink, just so as I can live down to your expectations of me. :D
 
Gentlemen! Gentlemen! There is no need to descend to Micheal Moore's level of discourse!

The OIL argument is not valid. The reserves in ANWR (Arctic National Wildlife Refuge) are plentiful, and drilling there would be less dangerous (politically and otherwise) than invading a foreign country. Although we could probably annex Mexico in a week and Vincente Fox wouldn't make any sound beyond a sigh of relief.

It's my personal suspicion that Iraq is important in giving us a stable MUSLIM base in the region. Getting rid of Saddam is just a fringe benefit. With a freindly Muslim nation in the center of things, our military (and others) could actually make some changes in the region. That Iraq will also serve as a testbed and proving ground for Western style democracy and freedom in the region is secondary. It's much harder for Syria to bitch about things coming at them from Iraq than Israel.

Not very articulate today, but I hope this makes sense.
 
Was there a film about the Iraq war? Oh, right. I did go to the matinee yesterday. I would tend to agree with Bannik's & Doctor Gateau's assessments, so I'll try not to repeat too much.

Almost a packed house, which for a wekday afternoon ain't too shabby. And as far as I good tell a reasonably mixed crowd, insofar as one can guess someone's politics by their appearance (problematic at best, of course).

As to the film as film. Moore is definitely a more accomplished filmmaker than he was in Roger & Me, Canadian Bacon, Bowling For Columbine. Which is a very good thing. The editing is tight and well done. It takes the viwer's attention and keeps it there. A very mature effort compared to his previous ones.

I'm not sure if it's the gravitas inherent in the subject matter, but there's a lot less MM shtick than one is used to seeing in his stuff. And fewer cheap shots than I would have expected frankly. (I thought the shots of Bush, Powell, Rice, Wolfowitz being made up before the cameras roll were gratuitous, f'rinst. Well EVERYONE gets make up put on before they go on TV. Big woo. It was a little unneccessary for trying to make the point 'ooh, this is all artifice', 'they're such phonys' or whatever.)

My personal favorite cheap shot moment was when he was talking about the suspension GWB received when in the Air National Guard. For about two seconds the soundtrack has the unmistakable guitar riff from Eric Clapton's 'Cocaine'. No lyric and no comment. There's a fair amount of pop-music on the soundtrack and it's easily missed by a lot a viewers I'd guess.

The first half of the film laying out his thesis is needed to set up the second half, but it's the latter that's much stronger. As it mostly focusses on the personal. The soldiers, their families, the Iraqis, Flint, Michigan, potential recruits. They all have their say.

I'm sure I could write more, but I'll just say it's an impressive piece of filmmaking and one of the more important movies to get wide release in this country in who-knows-how-long. It's also a very *patriotic* film, FWIW.
I will add that unlike Bannik, I didn't feel "sick" during or after seeing it. Angry, yes, very angry. But that's not a bad thing.

I do need to put as a PS, that Ogopogo, c'mon, you're a smarter guy than that. America's gas prices are nothing like record highs, unless petrol is supposed to be the one commodity that's not adjusted for inflation. But that's a topic for any number of other threads on this board and not really germane to MM's thesis put forth in F 9/11.
 
I anyone thinks Americans are paying too high a price for petrol maybe they should come to Britain and try buying it here.

But of course Britian does have a long history of taxing things which are bad for you and it seems reasonable to extend that to things which are bad for the planet.

Cujo
 
Cujo said:
I anyone thinks Americans are paying too high a price for petrol maybe they should come to Britain and try buying it here.

We pay about four times the price they do in the US. I understand that if you take inflation into account fuel is still much cheaper than it was in the seventies. We should have learned from the oil crisis then and developed a few more alternative sources of energy.
 
lopaka said:
I will add that unlike Bannik, I didn't feel "sick" during or after seeing it. Angry, yes, very angry. But that's not a bad thing.
Sorry, Lopaka. I didn't mean to sound judgemental. I felt like I should've felt angry while watching just like I felt like I should've been laughing along with my girlfriend and others in the theatre, but the urge just didn't arise. Somehow, sickness was the only feeling that really came up. I did cry too during certain scenes like the one in which the lady who lost her husband in 911 was saying how she wanted to know the truth about how Bush handled the situation and how maybe it could've been prevented.

My present girlfriend was working in the city on 911, and was able to see the towers come down from where she was working. She said that the scene in which you see the people's reactions to the towers coming down felt very reminiscent for her. I also found that scene very disturbing. This movie just hit me in a way that Bowling didn't. It seemed much darker.

Also, I'll never listen to 'Happy, Shiney People' the same way again.
 
Cujo said:
I anyone thinks Americans are paying too high a price for petrol maybe they should come to Britain and try buying it here. ...
We are, indeed, paying far too high a price for petrol/gas/gasoline.


Wherever we are.
 
Side Bar - UK Fuel

I think the assertion that the government taxes what is bad for us is largely a myth... they tax what we want to buy and tell us its for our own good. Petrol duty is a marvellous case in point. Yes, it may well be a pollutant yadda-yadda, but since when did any government actually give a good damn about that until we were knee deep in bodies?

Petrol duty is one of the single largest revenue generators that this, or any other British Government has had since the sixties. An it has a knock on effect on EVERY item you don't raise and make yourself. You go to the local shop to buy local potatoes... great. How terribly green of you and supporting the local economy...however, unless the farmer carried his produce from the field by cart to the cleaning shed, and then used the cart to get it to the shop, he has to be covering his fuel price plus mark up to get the produce there, so we're paying indirect taxes on every item we buy, in every salary paid, in every transaction, be it 'zero rated' tax wise or not...

When ever a government tells you its doing it for your good, or the good of the country, or the good of the planet, always look for the revenue stream.

The cloth of righteousness that a Politico wears is usually to disguise the truth of the matter...
 
Black Gold

Hugo Cornwall said:
The cloth of righteousness that a Politico wears is usually to disguise the truth of the matter...
Not just regarding taxes eh? :D


Originally posted by Hedgewizard
The OIL argument is not valid. The reserves in ANWR (Arctic National Wildlife Refuge) are plentiful, and drilling there would be less dangerous (politically and otherwise) than invading a foreign country.

This is simply not true. I have some documents from a lunchtime seminar presented at this year's Offshore Technology Conference where a panel of oil industry experts discussed "Hubbert's Curve" which is the concept of new oil discoveries being outstripped by demand resulting in gradual depletion of global oil. I have several megabytes of graphs which clearly show that worldwide reserves are indeed sinking over the next two decades, and in order to maintain demand, the Middle East is going to have to make up the shortfall. Ergo, the Middle East is going to become more important regarding oil production. I am sure this has not been wasted upon oil industry lobbyists and the rush to secure a safe haven in Iraq.
Unless there is a Saudi-sized deposit in Alaska, which I'm sure would have been found by now, it won't make a bit of difference in the long term. The "less dependence on foreign oil" argument is mince. USA doesn't have the reserves (unless you count the Fed Reserve which is bought in from elsewhere!)

Let's for the hell of it take the cynical view for a moment. What are the benefits of securing Iraq as a friendly neighborhood oil producer?

- A friendly government with a secure production of the second largest oil reserves in the world and access to the Gulf.
- An example to the Middle Eastern nations of what happens if the US takes a dislike to you (the Big Stick approach which works so well on Arabs).
- Revenge for 9/11 and warning against trying something similar again, particularly to any government sponsorship of terrorism.
- A democracy that may or may not influence the people of the region to adopt similar regimes (quite why angry middle-easterners would follow America on this is not explained)
- Large government contracts (i.e. taxpayers money) to selected American corporations for rebuilding and modernisation of infrastructure
- American forces parked on Iran and Syria's doorstep
- A new Iraqi army to supply arms to
- A reason to boost US military spending
- A new, rich market for American business
- Removal of a pain in the ass dictator
- Settling the score with guy who "wanted to kill ma Dad."
- Ability to crow it was all done to "liberate" the country, and hence secure mass support.

Not mentioning WMD or Al Qaeda even once.

It's perfect, really. You secure your economic interests, and at the same time are able to kid the people into thinking its some sort of a moral crusade and secure support. Perhaps that's why the opportunists were onto this the day after 9/11 (according to Richard Clarke).
Only the American public are not quite that stupid, and now the pendulum is swinging the other way as things do not go as smoothly as planned and the reasons given for war have gone down the pan. And here we are today.

Mr. Ogopogo, may I ask what is it you fear and hate about voting Democrat? You don't strike me as the kind of guy that would think a blowjob in the Oval Office was particularly objectionable :D
 
Dr. G, thank you for saying what I was stumbling about trying to get across.

As for gasoline prices here in the US, they peaked in my area at $2.02 a gallon. The same place now is priced at $1.89, and I can save a dime a gallon if I want to drive 15 miles out of my way.

As for the Democratsin the US, well, they lost their way some time back. They seem to ignore the average working family (once the backbone of the party) and are engaged in supporting various special interest groups. They also seem not to understand that decreasing taxes ends up increasing revenues (although they do grasp that boosting welfare payments stimulates the economy). Millionaires in the party make a lot of noise about taxing the rich, which makes them automatically suspect (they're promising to sneak up on themselves and steal their own wallets). They certainly aren't the party they were 30 years ago.

And as for Bill Clinton, well, the issue wasn't who did what. The issue was the hired help (that's the President) lying to the boss (that's the public).
 
In my bit of the UK 1 UK gallon is around £3.36 (88.8 pence per litre) which translates to $6.16 for a UK Gallon or approx $5.13 for a US Gallon. As a comment, the US has no idea of the meaning of the phrase 'expensive gas' :D
 
Re: Black Gold

Doctor Gateau said:
Mr. Ogopogo, may I ask what is it you fear and hate about voting Democrat? You don't strike me as the kind of guy that would think a blowjob in the Oval Office was particularly objectionable

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm, ok.

I voted for Clinton in 92.
 
Hugo Cornwall said:
the US has no idea of the meaning of the phrase 'expensive gas'

From what I've read, we certainly do not. We have some of the cheapest fuel in the world. Postage is another minor thing we Yanks like to bitch about. Assuming the carrier isn't hiding the stuff instead of delivering it, I can get a letter some 1200 miles in 2 days. However, I did send a cd in an envelope that couldn't be handled by machine, and it took 14 days to arrive about 600 miles away. I could have WALKED it up in that time. Maybe...
 
The new issue of Time magazine has a cover story on MM. To me the most interesting part comes at the very end, speculating on the possible impact of 9/11 on the presidential race (especially the last of the three paragraphs quoted here):

The Democrats may not know yet how closely they want to embrace a film that sometimes lunges at Bush without regard for niceties of context and counterargument. Democratic moderates may find Moore's style too extreme, pugnacious, rabble-rousing--even if his intention is to rouse the rabble to vote the Democrats back into office. So as Kerry strategists move their man to the center, they hope to benefit from the Fahrenheit 9/11 phenomenon and to keep from being tainted by it.

Meanwhile, Republicans are hoping that Kerry does what they most want: allow a photo-op with Madman Moore, or at least offer his film a rave review. As a high Bush campaign official says, "I can't wait to see what John Kerry says about the movie." Keep waiting. "John Kerry has not seen the movie," says spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter. He has been busy, she says. Notes a senior Democratic strategist: "John Kerry has stayed away from Michael Moore, and that's very smart."

But it's possible that Fahrenheit 9/11 may be having an impact on Kerry's war chest. Last week, the day before the movie's surprise victory at the box office was announced, Internet donations to the Kerry campaign climbed to a two-day fund-raising record of $ 5 million, with no special push from the candidate. Moviegoers may be plunking down their $ 9 at the multiplexes, then going home and e-mailing more money to the Man Who Isn't Bush. Says former Kerry campaign manager Jim Jordan of the film: "It is an exaggerated message from an imperfect messenger, but it might be the phenomenon that finally poisons the political atmosphere for Bush."



Other thing I'll say about this film-as-phenomenon, is that out of curiousity I checked to see where it was playing in my state of Kansas this 4th of July weekend beyond the urban centers. The list of towns is beyond startling: Emporia, Garden City, Hays, Parsons, Pittsburg. (Parsons!!!!!). The names won't mean anything to you, but these are VERY conservative towns in VERY rural areas, populations between 12,000-30,000. GWB may well win the presidency again, but that this movie would even be showing in locales like these in unbelievable.
 
Re: Re: Black Gold

That commentary seems on the money. I remember Wes Clarke tried to align with Moore and after a disastrous on-stage appearance he did everything he could distance himself afterwards - not that it made any difference. To side with Moore would be suicide - Moore is too extreme for the swing voters (remember the Dean Scream!)
As usual with incumbents, it looks like the election is there to be lost rather than won, and so far Dubya's doing a bang-up job without Kerry lifting a finger or even a pulse rate.

Ogopogo said:
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm, ok.

I voted for Clinton in 92.
Just checking - you were starting to sound like one of those weirdos that slates the Dems for raising taxes and increasing spending versus the other guys who reduce taxes and increase spending :D
 
Re: Re: Re: Black Gold

Originally posted by Doctor Gateau

Just checking - you were starting to sound like one of those weirdos that slates the Dems for raising taxes and increasing spending versus the other guys who reduce taxes and increase spending :D

Slapnuts, when I think you know me, I'll let you know.

As I recall, I've never voted Republican ever. In 96, I voted Libertarian. 2000, I didn't even both to vote, because neither candidate really impressed me.

2004, however, is another story.

WMDs?

Bush thought he had them.
Clinton thought he had them.
Kerry thought he had them.
Putin thought he had them.

Big deal. I've never cared about his WMDs one little shit. Even before the war started I was describing human rights atrocities committed by Iraq, documented by Amnesty International.

By all accounts, there were 300,000 people murdered in Iraq during Saddam. Does this "small" level of genocide even disturb people anymore? If the war would have been waged concerning genocide resulting in 300,000 dead rather than Saddam keeping some sneeze germs in his palace, would Europeans have reacted better? Would they care?

No, because THEY KNOW WAR FIRST HAND.

Not like 500,000 American GIs, though.

Suck my fat one.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Black Gold

Ogopogo said:
...

By all accounts, there were 300,000 people murdered in Iraq during Saddam. Does this "small" level of genocide even disturb people anymore? If the war would have been waged concerning genocide resulting in 300,000 dead rather than Saddam keeping some sneeze germs in his palace, would Europeans have reacted better? Would they care?

No, because THEY KNOW WAR FIRST HAND.

Not like 500,000 American GIs, though.

Suck my fat one.
You've got the, 'War Against Terror' argument confused with the 'War Against An Evil Dictator' argument again, funny how that keeps happening.

It an argument that comes across good and emotive. But, it's still really only an after the fact justification for something the Bush mob fully intended to do, anyway.

It was strictly business.
 
AndroMan said:
You've got the, 'War Against Terror' argument confused with the 'War Against An Evil Dictator' argument again, funny how that keeps happening.

It an argument that comes across good and emotive. But, it's still really only an after the fact justification for something the Bush mob fully intended to do, anyway.

It was strictly business.

Interesting.

And I should object that they toppled a genocidal dictator and are bringing him to trial for his atrocities why, again?
 
Ogopogo said:
Interesting.

And I should object that they toppled a genocidal dictator and are bringing him to trial for his atrocities why, again?
Did I even suggest that? I am suggesting, why not settle for the truth rather than feel good fairy stories and jingoistic claptrap?

You might pause for a moment and consider just how many of those three hundred thousand massacred were originally anti-Saddam Iraqis from the south, who were called upon, by George Bush snr., to rise up against their oppressor and then left abandoned to their fate, at the end of the 'First Gulf War.'

Don't seek the High Moral Ground in this one, it's all shifting quicksands.
 
Suck my fat one

Ogo, dear boy... with political rhetoric so biting and incisive, you should be running for Govenor. Its a choice sound bite... 'Suck my fat one!' - Ogo for Govenor 2008


Or at least have a 09000 number...

As to Saddam, so, Rwanda is next then? At least SE Asia has mostly cleaned its act up as far as mass killings to genocide goes...
 
Back
Top