Forgotten History

The king of Song said to his prime minister, Tang Yang, "I have executed a multitude, yet my officials fear me even less. Why is that?"

"Those whom your majesty condemned were all not good," Tang Yang replied. "Punishing those who are evil produces no fear ...

If his majesty desires that all his officials fear him, it would be best to condemn good and not-good alike. Then all his officials would certainly fear him."

A short time later the lord of Song executed Tang Yang ...

It would have been better for Tang Yang had he not responded at all to the question."

-- The Annals of Lü Buwei 《呂氏春秋》

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1641711683688361984
 
uair01 said:
The king of Song said to his prime minister, Tang Yang, "I have executed a multitude, yet my officials fear me even less. Why is that?"

"Those whom your majesty condemned were all not good," Tang Yang replied. "Punishing those who are evil produces no fear ...

If his majesty desires that all his officials fear him, it would be best to condemn good and not-good alike. Then all his officials would certainly fear him."

A short time later the lord of Song executed Tang Yang ...

It would have been better for Tang Yang had he not responded at all to the question."

-- The Annals of Lü Buwei 《呂氏春秋》

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1641711683688361984
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What's the point of making officials fear you? Rulers should inspire obedience through gaining respect.
This involves showing wisdom, a sense of justice, mercy, foresight and so on.

The minute the king starts executing good people he'll certainly bring about fear in his subjects, followed by a desire for revenge. Then he'll learn all about fear himself right up to when he gets the chop.

Heads on spikes. What a beautiful sight. :nods:
 
That's the thing - nutjobs obtain and maintain absolute power by fear; the fear of various minions below them that prevents them deposing the despot.
Then pressure builds and overwhelms their fear and so any toppling of a despot will be a frightful, violent and damaging event. Then the country has to rebuild it's structure which needs a leader to organise. This leader 'gets the bug' for power and it all rolls over again.
 
Long before Manhattan ....

There was medieval Bologna:

bol1.png


bol2.png


Comprising an estimated 80 to 120 buildings, the stone skyscrapers constructed in the 12th and 13th centuries AD, were a combination of military defensive towers, tenements, shops, prisons and, in some cases unoccupied pointless follies or memorials. The tallest was an astonishing 97 metres in height.
In subsequent centuries many were demolished and others simply collapsed. Around 20 of the smaller towers are still standing (albeit partially in some cases).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towers_of_Bologna
 
maximus otter said:
lt kept Stalin in power for thirty years, to name but one despot.

maximus otter
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Obligatory Machiavelli quote:

Niccolò Machiavelli was a political theorist from the Renaissance period. In his most notable work, The Prince, he writes, "It is better to be feared than to be loved, if one cannot be both." He argues that fear is a better motivator than love, which is why it is the more effective tool for leaders.
 
A bit of "forgotten history" I stumbled over today: the shortest war in history.

The so called shortest war in history was the Anglo-Zanzibar War, which started at 09:00 on 27th August 1896 and finished somewhere between 09:35 and 09:45 on the same day, depending on whom you believe. It is most commonly quoted to have lasted 38 minutes.

The war itself was a typical bit of British colonialism, with Britain wishing to impose their own choice of Sultan on Zanzibar, and rejecting the one who succeeded to the position.

Shots were exchanged and the casualty figures were around 5,000 500 of the Zanzibari defenders killed or wounded, and 1 British sailor injured. He recovered. [Edit due to error.]

However, a close rival was the so-called Kettle War of 8th October 1784. Only 1 shot was fired, and it hit a soup kettle. This so called war was between the Holy Roman Empire and The Republic of the Seven Netherlands.

Presumably this does not count as a shorter war than the Anglo Zanzibar War as the official declaration of war was not until a few days later, on 30th October, and there were more skirmishes thereafter.

You can read in more detail in Wikipedia, of course.
 
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Mikefule said:
The so called shortest war in history was the Anglo-Zanzibar War, which started at 09:00 on 27th August 1896 and finished somewhere between 09:35 and 09:45 on the same day, depending on whom you believe. It is most commonly quoted to have lasted 38 minutes.

The war itself was a typical bit of British colonialism, with Britain wishing to impose their own choice of Sultan on Zanzibar, and rejecting the one who succeeded to the position.

Shots were exchanged and the casualty figures were around 5,000 of the Zanzibari defenders killed or wounded, and 1 British sailor injured. He recovered.
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Even taking the longest estimate of 45 mins, that works out to 2 Zanzibarians killed or injured every second, against 1 British sailor injured in total. Sounds like a massacre..
 
uair01 said:
Obligatory Machiavelli quote:

Niccolò Machiavelli was a political theorist from the Renaissance period. In his most notable work, The Prince, he writes, "It is better to be feared than to be loved, if one cannot be both." He argues that fear is a better motivator than love, which is why it is the more effective tool for leaders.
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We have democracy now.
 
hunck said:
Even taking the longest estimate of 45 mins, that works out to 2 Zanzibarians killed or injured every second, against 1 British sailor injured in total. Sounds like a massacre..
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My mistake. I meant 500, not 5,000. I've edited my post. Still an extreme ratio. Many of the deaths were caused by the fire that was started by the bombardment. Moral of the tale: don't hole up in a mainly timber-built palace if your enemy has explosive shells.
 
Mikefule said:
A bit of "forgotten history" I stumbled over today: the shortest war in history.

The so called shortest war in history was the Anglo-Zanzibar War, which started at 09:00 on 27th August 1896 and finished somewhere between 09:35 and 09:45 on the same day, depending on whom you believe. It is most commonly quoted to have lasted 38 minutes.

The war itself was a typical bit of British colonialism, with Britain wishing to impose their own choice of Sultan on Zanzibar, and rejecting the one who succeeded to the position.

Shots were exchanged and the casualty figures were around 5,000 500 of the Zanzibari defenders killed or wounded, and 1 British sailor injured. He recovered. [Edit due to error.]

However, a close rival was the so-called Kettle War of 8th October 1784. Only 1 shot was fired, and it hit a soup kettle. This so called war was between the Holy Roman Empire and The Republic of the Seven Netherlands.

Presumably this does not count as a shorter war than the Anglo Zanzibar War as the official declaration of war was not until a few days later, on 30th October, and there were more skirmishes thereafter.

You can read in more detail in Wikipedia, of course.
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I've got to ask- what's a soup kettle?
 
Floyd1 said:
I've got to ask- what's a soup kettle?
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These days, "kettle" tends to be used mainly for the thing with a spout and a lid that you use to boil water to make tea. However, a kettle is any lidded vessel used to heat something. Basically, a soup kettle is a cauldron, pot, or vat, with a lid, used to make large quantities of soup.
 
I have been looking at London fog during Victorian Times... and got distracted onto the Donora Smog Incident , Pennsylvania , 1948
Heavily industrialised steel city got struck by a death fog lasting 5 days. Intrigued by a phenomenon known as a weather inversion which seems to have occurred. The overall death toll was 70 .

 
One newly awakened patient in an asylum near Lyon had a severe sickness that had kept him cloudy for years. But now, on chlorpromazine, he told his doctor, Jean Perrin, that he knew who he was and where he was. He reported that he was a barber from Lyon and that now, well, he would like to go back to work. His psychiatrist responded with a challenge. ‘Give me a shave,’ the doctor suggested intrepidly to the barber, whose skills must have been at the very least rusty, dulled from years of disuse and disease. Nurses produced a bowl of warm water, a stack of clean and folded towels, some soap and an unsheathed blade, which was placed in the barber’s hand. The doctor sat in a seat while the recently revived patient smocked him with the towels and soaped up his chin and cheeks. Then, with sane and steady hands, the barber raked the razor over the iron filings of stubble until the psychiatrist’s skin was perfectly smooth and satiny.

From this excellent book:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40940300-blue-dreams?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=JDFuP5wwlI&rank=1
 
Recently have got intrigued by the Hyde Park pet cemetery which was in operation between 1881 - 1903. There were some 300 interments. There is an excellent webpost with pictures on the Burials and Beyond website .
Here is said post London's Secret Victorian Pet Cemetery .
Some of the names on the headstones are quite odd such as 'Fattie', 'Smut', and even 'Scum'.
Access now seems possible via guided tour only.
 
I was looking up the details of a small village nearish me called London Colney as I wasn't familiar with it and found this quite amusing story from WW2 in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Colney

In the early morning of 12 May 1941, a German spy, Karel Richter, descended by parachute near London Colney. Richter buried his equipment and hid for a couple of days. Driven out by hunger (he had mistakenly buried his food parcel as well), Richter was approached by two lorry drivers who asked him the way to London. Suspicious of Richter's non-committal reply and foreignness, the lorry drivers then approached Constable Alec Scott and mentioned the strange man. Scott found Richter who asked to be taken to a hospital as he was feeling unwell. Scott called his superiors who quickly sent a car to pick up Richter and take him to jail.
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staticgirl said:
I was looking up the details of a small village nearish me called London Colney as I wasn't familiar with it and found this quite amusing story from WW2 in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Colney
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Interesting post.Thank you. Found this video via Youtube about Karel Richter. There is something quite pathetic about Richter.

When Being a WW2 Spy Goes Wrong

Interesting how spies seem to be caught out by the amount of money/or type of cash that they were carrying .
 
Lord Lucan said:
83 Years ago on May 22, Igor Sikorsky test flies the Vought-Sikorsky VS-300 helicopter in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

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I worked with Patricia Sikorsky, a member of the Sikorsky helicopter family.
She was in merchandising for a now defunct mail order catalog, and was the epitome of class, style and elegance.
You would never suspect that she was from such a high profile and wealthy family, lovely woman.
 
How Gilles de Rais was scammed by the alchemists (my personal opinion):

The Marshal was beginning to doubt the powers of his magicians, when the result of a new endeavour convinced him that sometimes the devil does appear. An invoker, whose name is lost, held a séance with Gilles and de Sillé in a room at Tiffauges.
On the floor, he drew a large circle and ordered his companions to enter it. Sillé refused; gripped by a terror he could not explain, he began to tremble all over. He stood next to an open window, murmuring exorcisms under his breath.
Gilles, bolder than the others, stood in the middle of the circle, but at the first invocations, he shuddered and tried to make the sign of the cross. The sorcerer ordered him not to move. At one point, he was seized by the neck by something unknown, and was terrified. Full of panic, he wavered and begged Our Lady, the Virgin, to save him. The invoker, furious at that, threw him out the circle, and Gilles rushed out of the room. Sillé jumped out the window and they met below, both panting in fear.
Howls could be heard coming from the room where the magician was operating. ‘A noise of falling blows, like large swords striking a wooden bed’ is heard, followed by moans, cries of distress, and calls for help from a man being murdered.
Terrified, they stood and listened, and then when the noise ceased, they ventured back and pushed the door open, only to find the sorcerer lying on the floor in pools of blood, his barely-alive body mangled, his head caved in.
They carried the groaning man out. Gilles, full of remorse, put him in his own bed, bandaged him, and had his priest hear the man’s confession, just in case he passed away. For several days the sorcerer lay there, hovering between life and death. Eventually he recovered, and fled the château.
Gilles was desperate to obtain from the devil the recipe for the sovereign magisterium. Then Eustache Blanchet’s return from Italy was announced. He had brought with him the master of Florentine magic, the irresistible invoker of demons and larvae, François Prelati.

From this excellent, and in later life devoutly Catholic author:
Sorcery In Poitou: Two Satanic Essays: Gilles de Rais and Felicen Rops
Joris-Karl Huysmans
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show...u?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=5sY3fGpdMS&rank=1
 
uair01 said:
How Gilles de Rais was scammed by the alchemists (my personal opinion):

From this excellent, and in later life devoutly Catholic author:
Sorcery In Poitou: Two Satanic Essays: Gilles de Rais and Felicen Rops
Joris-Karl Huysmans
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show...u?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=5sY3fGpdMS&rank=1
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Excellent post , thank you. Reminds me that it was time that started to read some of Huysman's work.
By the way, there is a Gilles de Rais was innocent website. I am linking the website for information purposes , I don't know much about the man.
 
The Erfurt Latrine Disaster of 1184

Not really a 'forgotten' piece of history, but a truly bizarre incident which I wasn't aware of until recently. And it might well have changed the course of the Holy Roman Empire.

In 1184 Henry VI, King of Germany and later Holy Roman Emperor, convened an assembly in Erfurt to settle a squabble between some of his subjects. I won't go into the details of the squabble: they would be interesting only to students of medieval history.

All the nobles of the Holy Roman Empire were invited to attend. The meeting was held in a deanery in Erfurt.

What they did not know was that the floor was a bit wonky and the foundations of the building had been used as a sewage disposal pit from time immemorial. This is perhaps the most bizarre point. Apparently at that time it was not too uncommon for raw sewage to be dumped into the footings of larger buildings, and if the walls were solid you would end up with a swimming-pool sized body of liquid human excrement under the floors.

The smell in the hall must have been appalling. But that didn't seem to bother Emperor or nobles.

Then the inevitable happened. The floor gave way under the weight of the crowd, and the assembled nobility of the Holy Roman Empire were deposited en masse into the sewage underneath. Between 60 and 100 died, drowned in liquid crap.

Henry himself survived, but 'departed as soon as possible.'

I'd imagine that the loss of so many of the ruling class must have had some implications for politics in the area, but I can't find much information on that part.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_latrine_disaster

https://allthatsinteresting.com/erfurt-latrine-disaster
 
Lord Lucan said:
83 Years ago on May 22, Igor Sikorsky test flies the Vought-Sikorsky VS-300 helicopter in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

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On seeing Sikorsky twiddling the controls, I was reminded of David Gunson’s legendary and hilarious after-dinner speech, The Air Traffic Controller:


In it (from memory) he describes learning how to fly a helicopter in terms like this:

“Twiddle the sticks and pedals until the aircraft does what you wanted it to do. Then - and this is important - remember where they were, because you might want to do that again…”

maximus otter
 
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