Found: John The Baptist's Cave

[ramonmercado]

Found in the wilderness, the cave where John the Baptist

A BRITISH archaeologist has uncovered evidence for the existence of John the Baptist that could have a huge impact on Christian history.
Shimon Gibson, 45, who has been excavating sites in Israel and the Occupied Territories over many years, has discovered a cave west of Jerusalem with a ritual baptism pool, rock carvings and pottery, which he has linked to John the Baptist and his followers.

The extraordinary discovery was revealed to The Times yesterday ahead of an international press conference tomorrow, when his findings will be announced at the cave.

The unusually large cave — 24m (79ft) by 3.5m (11.5ft) — is close to the village of Ain Karim, the Baptist’s traditional birthplace according to early Christian sources. It was also the area in which he spent his youth and early adult life.

Dr Gibson said that a figure holding a staff that is reminiscent of representations of the Baptist in early Byzantine art is among images primitively incised into the rock during the 4th and 5th centuries, by which time the cave had become a shrine to the Baptist.

Speaking from Israel, Dr Gibson said: “I am now certain that this cave was connected with the ancient cult of John the Baptist. Indeed, this may very well be ‘the’ cave of the early years of John’s life, the place where he sought his first solitude in the ‘wilderness’ and the place where he practised his baptisms.”

Religious leaders were excited by news of the discovery but few have so far been allowed into the cave because there was concern that thousands of pilgrims would descend on the site before the excavation had finished.

Dr Gibson, whose excavation was sponsored by the University of North Carolina in America, said he expects the cave to become a shrine again to the Baptist.

Until now, he noted, pilgrims have been able to visit only two nearby churches dedicated to him. Apart from 16th and 17th-century paintings, there has been nothing as substantial as a site with such a direct link to the man who was to baptise Christ in the River Jordan.

Dr Gibson said the cave contained archaeological remains from the time of the personalities and events described in the Gospels: “For the first time, we can point to a spot and say it is highly likely that this is where John the Baptist was baptising and undertaking his rituals. That is amazing.”

The cave’s entrance had been almost obscured by thorn bushes when Dr Gibson was asked by the local kibbutz, on whose land it is situated, to look inside. Initially, the only way to enter was by sliding in feet first. He was then confronted by the rock portrait. “I sensed I was on the verge of making a major archaeological discovery. I could feel tingling in my hands,” he said.

more at:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-1217975,00.html

 

[Anonymous]

John the Baptist's cave found?

From BBC News-

John the Baptist's cave 'found'

A British archaeologist says he has found a cave used by the New Testament figure John the Baptist.

Shimon Gibson spent five years excavating the site near Jerusalem, unearthing objects apparently used in ancient purification rituals.

Images carved on the walls include that of a man with wild hair and carrying a staff, said to be reminiscent of John, whom the Bible says baptised Jesus.

Biblical scholars have questioned the find, which they say is inconclusive.

Oil

The 24m (79ft) deep cave is situated on present day Kibbutz Tzuba, about 4km (2.5miles) from John's birthplace of Ein Kerem.

Mr Gibson's team found quarter of a million pieces of pottery apparently from artefacts used in the immersion process.

The explorers also uncovered 28 steps leading to a chamber containing an oval stone with a foot-shaped indentation and a niche apparently through which oil would flow onto a worshipper's foot.

"John the Baptist, who was just a figure from the Gospels, now comes to life," said Mr Gibson.

A wall carving appeared to depict John, who belonged to a sect which forbade followers from cutting their hair.

Another carving of a face was symbolic of a severed head: John was decapitated by Herod Antipas, who ruled the Holy Land at the time of Jesus.

"Nothing like this has been found elsewhere," Mr Gibson said.

"It is the first time we have finds from the early baptismal period... It is an amazing discovery that happens to an archaeologist once in a lifetime."

But some biblical scholars are treating Mr Gibson's claim with caution.

Stephen Pfann, president of the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, said the find was intriguing, but that more work needed to be done.
Story from BBC NEWS:
Source

I fail to see how the guy can claim it was definatly John the Baptist's cave. Interesting, none the less.

 

[Anonymous]

There does seem to be very little real evidence that it has any biblical connection what-so-ever. Especially when it comes to the possibility that Big J also visited it (Which was mentioned in todays Glasgow Herald.)

What is not in doubt is that he's flogging a new book so I guess it wouldn't hurt to throw out little bits that people can read any way they want.

But quite aside from whether or not John or Jesus ever set foot inside it it's still a very interesting find and I look forward to hearing more about it.

 

[Sertile]

I don't understand why there would be a picture of John on the wall of his cave... I've never drawn (or carved) a crude picture of myself on any of the walls of my house. I know it was a different time, but still, it seems like a very odd thing to do. It would make more sense (to me, anyway) that some early christians had found the cave and modified it to match with what they believed.

 

[TheNumber47]

it all seems a bit too tidy to me, everything an archaeologist would wish for in their wildest dreams to connect a site with a famous historical figure is there short of "JOHN (thats John the baptist to you lot, ya THE John) WAS HERE" scrawled on the wall. Archaeology doesnt work that way, and whenever I hear about a "perfect, stunning" find, I get suspicious. Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

 

[Anonymous]

It would make more sense (to me, anyway) that some early christians had found the cave and modified it to match with what they believed.

Thats what I think too.

From the Herald:

"Mr Gibson said evidence of specific links to John the Baptist at the site came from drawings made 400 or 500 years later that portrayed him in similar ways to other Bytzantine art. One of the Pictures shows John's severed head."

It goes on to say that he had carried out many tests that proved his theory to his satisfaction. It's a bit vague on what tests they were though....

It also states that the annointing equipment was quite different from those that were used my most Jews 2000 years ago.

So, as far as I can see there is virtually no evidence of John ever using the place. Perhaps a Sect from several centuries later?

 

[Mal_Adjusted]

Hi

another possibility is that it was a baptism site used originally by some mystery religion /cult that was later taken over by Xtians???

r@

 

[Anonymous]

As exciting as the discovery appears, surely this is an example of bad archaeology? Calling this "the cave of John the Baptist" isn't science, it's more like religion because you're claiming something that has not, and perhaps cannot, be demonstrated or proven.

I find it ironic that my friends refer to my Fortean Times as "that weird magazine", yet while the newspapers appear to have unquestioningly seized upon this cave as that of John the Baptist, it's actually the Fortean Times messageboards, which brim with the bizarre, that offer a sceptical and more objective view of this story.

By the way, I have seen many references to this cave as the greatest discovery since the Dead Sea Scrolls, yet no-one has explained why this should be. Even if this cave were proven to be John the Baptist's, how would that change our understanding of, or attitudes to, the Bible? A religious man living in the wildernesses of the Middle East was hardly a controversial assertion in the Bible to begin with surely?

 

[Alexius4]

Another possibility that occurs is that the cave was inhabited and decorated by an early christian anchorite. The article mentions the carvings as being 4th-5th century; that would certainly fit in with the beginning of the monastic movements, when individuals mystics moved into the outskirts of settlements and pursued a solitary life of devotion and contemplation, occasionally being pestered by visitors.

On the whole, I would consider that a little more likely an explanation, given the provenance of the material, than leaping at the St John conclusion.

Ironically, if that is the case, it is a major find - just not as sexy as a bona fide New testament relic.

edit: I agree, it is rather piquant that the BBC is splashing the St John hypothesis across the web while we are evoking Ockham's Razor.

 

[Kondoru]

<shrugs>

What do the Mandeans say?

 

[ramonmercado]

Area pastors unsure on discovery of John the Baptist’s cave

Area pastors unsure on discovery of John the Baptist’s cave


Archaeologists may have had their 15 minutes of fame last week, but area pastors who talked to The Herald Press were, for the most part, under-whelmed.

On Tuesday, British archaeologist Shimon Gibson reported that his archaeological team had found a cave in which John the Baptist anointed his disciples. In a dig outside Jerusalem archaeologists discovered a huge cistern with 28 steps leading to an underground pool of water.

Gibson presented wall carvings he said told the story of the fiery New Testament preacher, also a stone believed to be used for ceremonial foot washing, and pottery shards from water jugs used in the baptismal ritual.

Author of a book published this week titled, "The Cave of John the Baptist," Gibson called the discovery by the Jerusalem Archaeological Field Unit, one of the most significant breakthroughs for biblical scholars in memory.

Though most scholars and clergy have yet to read Gibson’s book, several voiced reservations about the importance of the archaeological finding.

Steven Ortiz, director of the Center for Archaeological Research at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, told the Baptist Press he believed it improbable that this was the site John the Baptist used.

"The more likely site is somewhere in the Judean wilderness alongside the Jordan River," Ortiz said. "Archaeological discoveries in the holy land are very important to people of faith. They illustrate the historicity of the biblical accounts. They also lead to sensationalism and fanciful reconstructions of the Gospel accounts."

Other biblical scholars thought the drawings were done centuries later by Byzantine monks, honoring John the Baptist and a pool he might have used.

George Zeller, assistant to the pastor, Middletown Bible Church, said, "If this turns out to be true, it will be a remarkable discovery." However, he added that "here at the Bible Church we don’t need archaeology to validate our faith and the reliability of Scriptures. We know John the Baptist carried on his ministry, pointing to the coming messiah. But, I have one question:in the biblical record whenever it talks about John the Baptist baptizing it’s always in the river Jordan. It’s never in some secret cave."

Zeller believes most people don’t need more proof.

"Men have a heart problem," he said. "Even if this finding proves John set foot in the cave, men won’t suddenly fall down on their knees before God and cry, ‘Save us from our sins!’"

Rev. Michael Zahra, Church of the Bible, Plainville said whenever there are archaeological findings he goes to the Scriptures "to see what the facts are."

He said a strong faith doesn’t necessarily need to see Noah’s Arch, the cloth of Turin or John the Baptist’s cave.

"What interests me the most about this present discovery is that John the Baptist was the forerunner of the Lord Jesus Christ," Zahra said. "If through this discovery, it causes people to open the Scriptures and read about the life of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, that would be my desire."

Rev. Daniel Peters is pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church, Old Saybrook, with members as far north as Middletown.

"The fact of an archeological discovery usually has the greatest benefit to those who believe the Bible," Peters said. "For unbelievers, the discovery of Noah’s ark, the tomb of Pontius Pilate, the perfect accuracy of every location in the Book of Acts, adds up to one conclusion: the Bible is accurate in everything it says."

Source

 

[Kondoru]

I wouldnt go as far as to say that, but these books are always interesting to the historian.

and archelogy has done so much to illustrate that history.

 

[Anonymous]

Wasn't there some claim a few years back that the coffin of Jesus' brother had been found? Turned out to be no such thing. There was a coffin all right, with an inscription, but no way could it be proved to have any connection with persons named in the Bible.

 

[Kondoru]

Of course, biblical names were pretty common in those days...

 

[Anonymous]

Wasn't there some claim a few years back that the coffin of Jesus' brother had been found? Turned out to be no such thing. There was a coffin all right, with an inscription, but no way could it be proved to have any connection with persons named in the Bible.

Turned out to be a hoax. It was 2000+ year old limestone burial box, but the inscription has been added later.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Another report:

British archaeologist discovers 'John the Baptist' cave near Jerusalem

Sun Dec 5, 2:10 PM ET


KIBBUTZ TSUBA, Israel (AFP) - A British archaeologist has uncovered a cave in the mountains near Jerusalem which he believes conclusively proves that the Biblical figure of John the Baptist existed.

"The first concrete evidence of the existence of John the Baptist has been found on site," 46-year-old Shimon Gibson told AFP.

Gibson, who holds a degree from University College London and has written several works on Biblical archaeology, believes the discovery to be "the first archaeological proof of the historical veracity of the Gospels".

Other archaeologists, however, believe Gibson's conclusions go too far, and that the discovery of an ancient place of worship linked to John the Baptist does not prove that he actually existed.

According to the New Testament, John the Baptist was a prophet and fiery preacher who lived in the mountains between Jerusalem and the Dead Sea. A contemporary of Jesus, John called on people to repent of their sins, after which he would baptize them in the Jordan River.

The cave, which is located on the grounds of Kibbutz Tsuba just outside Jerusalem, is "about an hour's donkey ride from Ein Kerem, the village where Christian tradition says John was born," Gibson says.

It is also on the edge of the Judean desert, where John was known to hold spiritual retreats.

The cave is located on the side of a mountain in an area covered in pine forests, close to a riverbed in a steepsided valley where the kibbutz maintains an olive grove.

It was the kibbutzniks themselves who in 1999 first alerted Gibson to the existence of the cave, which had been hidden behind a mass of vegetation for years.

A field archaeologist with an air of Indiana Jones about him, Gibson crawled through a hole into the cave, which was filled with rocks and earth.

He decided to start excavating after discovering a crudely-drawn picture of John the Baptist carved into the limestone walls "dressed in camel hair robes" as described in the Gospel of Matthew.

Several crosses and a rough drawing of a severed head were also carved into the walls, illustrating John's death by beheading at the hands of Herod Antipas, ruler of the northern Galilee region at the time.

Underneath the picture of John is a small niche "designed for a relic", Gibson explains.

"These drawings are the work of Byzantine monks who used to gather in the cave to tell the history of John the Baptist," he said, pointing out an area around the eyes where vandals, or iconoclasts, had tried to destroy the pictures.

Excavations, which took place between 2000 and 2003 in conjunction with a team from the University of North Carolina, revealed a space some 24 metres (yards) long, 4.5 metres wide and four metres high, with 18 huge steps leading down to a large rectangular pool.

"Its use for baptism rituals dates back to the Iron Age, the era of the kings of Judea," he said.

"We discovered tens of thousands of shards from clay pitchers with one handle, each about 30 centimetres tall, which dated back to the era of John the Baptist," he said.



"Unlike the baptism rituals practised in the Jewish religion, which were individual and dealt with the purification of the body, those practised by the disciples of John were collective and dealt with the purification of the heart," he said.

Just outside the entrance, further excavations revealed several huge pools for collecting rainwater which fed the main pool inside -- only water "from heaven" being suitable for the sacred baptism ritual.

"Once the disciple came out of the ritual bath, he would place his right foot in a notch cut out of the rock, where they would pour oil on it, a ritual which sanctified his taking a new path," Gibson explains.

John the Baptist's cave, which has been restored by Kibbutz Tsuba, will be opened to the public early next year.

Source

 

[ramonmercado]

Found: His Body!

Bones in Bulgaria may be of John the Baptist: study
http://phys.org/news/2012-06-bones-bulg ... ptist.html
June 15th, 2012 in Other Sciences / Archaeology & Fossils

An alabaster sculpture of John the Baptist is pictured in France. Scientists have found new evidence they say supports the theory that a knuckle bone and other human remains found under a church floor in Bulgaria may be of John the Baptist.

Scientists have found new evidence they say supports the theory that a knuckle bone and other human remains found under a church floor in Bulgaria may be of John the Baptist.

The relics found in a small marble sarcophagus two years ago on a Bulgarian island called Sveti Ivan, which translates as Saint John, also included a human tooth, part of a skull and three animal bones.

A research team from Oxford University dated the right-handed knuckle bone to the first century AD, when John is believed to have lived until his beheading ordered by king Herod, the university said in a statement.

And scientists from the University of Copenhagen analysed the DNA of the bones, finding they came from a single individual, probably a man, from a family in the modern-day Middle East, where John would have lived.

While these findings do not definitively prove anything, they also don't refute the theory first proffered by the Bulgarian archaeologists who found the remains while excavating under an ancient church on the island.
Many sites around the world claim to hold relics of the saint, including the Grand Mosque in Damascus which says it has his head.

The right hand with which the prophet allegedly baptised Jesus in the River Jordan is also claimed to be held by several entities, including a Serbian Orthodox monastery in Montenegro.

"The result from the metacarpal hand bone is clearly consistent with someone who lived in the early first century AD," Oxford University professor Tom Higham said of the new study.

"Whether that person is John the Baptist is a question that we cannot yet definitely answer and probably never will."

Bulgarian archaeologists had found a small box made of hardened volcanic ash close to the sarcophagus.

The box bore inscriptions in ancient Greek that referred to John the Baptist and the date that Christians celebrate his birth, June 24.

The findings of another Oxford researcher, using historical documents,
suggest that the monastery of Sveti Ivan may have received a portion of John the Baptist's relics in the fifth or early sixth centuries.

The findings are to be presented in a documentary to be aired on The National Geographic channel in Britain on Sunday.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Clearly it's him because John The Baptist was the only man from the Middle East to have travelled to Bulgaria.

 

[ramonmercado]

Clearly it's him because John The Baptist was the only man from the Middle East to have travelled to Bulgaria.

No! No! There was a thriving holidat business there. He died on a beach with a chilled drink in one hand and a hot babe in the other. No remarks about head will be tolerated.

 

[Xanatic_]

Can we refer to that cave of John the Baptist as the Bapt-Cave?

 

[EnolaGaia]

Can we refer to that cave of John the Baptist as the Bapt-Cave?

Good one!

Something I've never understood ... With John's baptismal activities (and his final incarceration and execution) having been reportedly located 'beyond' (on the eastern side of) the Jordan River - why would anyone believe a site in the Jerusalem vicinity could possibly be a place where he 'worked'?