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Fraudulent Psychics & Mediums

GadaffiDuck said:
Fizz, I would be happy to look at any evidence you can get. The worst that can happen with a trance is that someone can go to sleep. Hypnosis cannot induce schizophrenia. If you have anything else, please tell me - I'm certainly missing that knowledge from my reading.

I am not willing to share anyone else's medical records with you, either publicly or privately. As I am unwilling to do so, I shall withdraw from this discussion. Remember, we are all expected to trust you that the evidence you submit on so many subjects is reliable and that your own experiences are genuine. You seem unable to extend the same courtesy to me.

If you decide to become qualified in hypnotherapy, via a reputable organisation, you may well learn of cases of malpractice during your training. These cases are anonymised but authorised by the patient for discussion within training, unlike the cases of which I have knowledge, which is why I won't discuss them in any further detail. Please feel free to discuss the cases you have learnt of during your training with me when you are qualified.

By the way, I have not mentioned schizophrenia anywhere in any of my posts, nor have I implied that the cases I mention involve this condition.
 
GadaffiDuck said:
Ah, it wasn't done at the drop of the hat - though I will try and help any of my friends to the best of my ability; I was merely expressing how horrid the situation was, and how happy I was to have helped (when I first posted, it was not long after the situation). I make no apologies.

I'm sure it was carried it out with plenty of care etc. and was a hard experience. But reading the thread, particularly the honest way you appraise your own qualifications (which unless I'm mistaken, which I probably am, are quite scant in this field) it seems as if you may have ended up biting off a little more than you can chew... this is probably just down to the way it was told. I know fuck all about hypnotism (I have a feeling that fizz32 probably does judging from their response) but I do know a lot about social workers and social work and my initial thoughts about that were:

1) that social workers would not have approved of it full stop. Whether or not you yourself regard their disapproval as a good or bad thing is a moot point. I've actually emailed my friend who works in referral services for the NHS (she's in an information officer role so deals with queries like this from journalists all the time) to ask what the party line is, not with specific reference to this or any case, on deprogramming services following alleged involvement in cults, and will let you know what she says.

2) that there is an issue with this character you're actually talking about, as you've made allegations which are quite serious and if they're untrue you might need to be careful

3) whether the family know you're talking about this here

don't mean to be overly negative, just be careful GD
 
Right. 1) no mind games. 2) the family and daughter are old friends 3) problem seems to be solved. I can't personally think of anything worse than bringing in social services or overpriced half assed qualified therapists. There is nothing dangerous, via the techniques I used, to suggest otherwise demonstrates a complete lack of understanding (and certainly not mine).

Thank you for the advice re: what could go wrong. I understand your concerns, and you have given me cause to think about the future (and helping others). No really. They are good points, and ones I didn't take into account at the time (as the situation was private and involved family friends).

For reference, as said elsewhere, my area of psychology is business psychology (and some educative, if I can swing it - fingers crossed, fingers crossed - oops, outside locus of control :D ); my passion would be to get funding to study neuroscience and cognition (looks like that is going out the window), but, this needs a lot of cash. While waiting to hear if I am ever going to get a blinking studenship, I am about to start on a therapy based course in September.
 
GadaffiDuck said:
Right. 1) no mind games. 2) the family and daughter are old friends 3) problem seems to be solved. I can't personally think of anything worse than bringing in social services or overpriced half assed qualified therapists. There is nothing dangerous, via the techniques I used, to suggest otherwise demonstrates a complete lack of understanding (and certainly not mine).

Thank you for the advice re: what could go wrong. I understand your concerns, and you have given me cause to think about the future (and helping others). No really. They are good points, and ones I didn't take into account at the time (as the situation was private and involved family friends).

For reference, as said elsewhere, my area of psychology is business psychology (and some educative, if I can swing it - fingers crossed, fingers crossed - oops, outside locus of control :D ); my passion would be to get funding to study neuroscience and cognition (looks like that is going out the window), but, this needs a lot of cash. While waiting to hear if I am ever going to get a blinking studenship, I am about to start on a therapy based course in September.

I don't understand the mind games reference, and the character I was talking about was the "warlock" in point 2.
 
Thanks throw. Thank fizz - I wasn't asking for medical records or anthing, just 'stories' with some kind of investigation behind them. I've not heard of any cases re: hypnosis and bad things. The info that I have, says that these are myths.
 
Did someone mention deprogramming!

'Splash hurridly grabs hold of barge pole
 
YOU are the one with the complete lack of understanding. What you have done is dangerous, not least to you. It will come back to bite you if this girl has further problems, because her experience with you will come out and it will be seen as abusive, not therapeutic.

I don't believe for a moment that you have dealt with her issues - it is more likely that she is doing what most 'deprogrammed' people do, which is to pretend to agree to ger out of the immediate situation. They then hotfoot it either back to the cult or to the police.

I can't personally think of anything worse than bringing in social services or overpriced half assed qualified therapists.

I can - how about bringing in a free, unqualified 'therapist'? Because that's what you have set yourself up as.
 
Sorry throw, the above is a mistimed posting - the mind games referred to an earlier point made by escargot.

Escargot, I don't dispute the general idea. I believe everything is fine. You seem to have a different view of the meaning of the word deprogramme to myself. If you are referring to that strange USA deprogramming, then I have not done that. However, is her behaviour okay? yes. Her grades are back up again. Good. Does she see this psychic bloke anymore? No. All good.
 
Right. I am off for drinkies up in town. Will try to get back on later this pm. Boo hoo. As of tomorrow, on the wagon.
 
This is what you said -

I've just had to help de-programme a friend's daughter who had been suckered into a psychic's nascent cult idea. I didn't enjoy providing a different perspective (somewhat intellectually forced) upon her...but something had to be done to break the bastard's hold (what was worse; I don't believe I am qualified in this area at all, so a lot had to be done on ad hoc bullshit and minor research
(My emphasis)

So, on what did you base your 'de-programming' system? As you admit to being unqualified, where did you do your 'minor research'? And what form did the 'ad hoc bullshit' take?
 
I think some confusion is arising over the continued use of the word "deprogramming".
 
Well Red, she had got a new behaviour patter, and I believe that I helped restore the old ones. I must admit, I thought I was using the word inthe right context. I can't believe all the pissedoffedness. As I was saying, it is good that she is happy. As I said earlier, perhaps, she had an inflated school girl crush combined with peer pressure.

Anyhoo, I'm off now.....~Ah, cries of burn the duck (so I must be a witch)
 
As well as concerns about the legal, moral and ethical dimensions* (as outlined by others above)

GadaffiDuck said:
As a goodish fortean I am happy that people have whatever belief pattern they wish...I only ask that the person can critically analyse (just a little bit) their chosen path.

We have discussed what is and isn't Fortean and not agreed on too much but I suspect Fort might have raised an eyebrow or three over this. Are you de-programing or re-programming? Could you not be accused of doing exactly what this cult character is said to be doing? You don't like her way of thinking so have imposed your own - it has whiffs of 1984 and thoughtcrime.

*Are you a member of a professional body in the general field as I suspect they'd have guidelines against such things.
 
I am waiting to hear exactly how this process works.
 
To return to the topic, briefly...

The RIAA is apparently able to communicate with the dead, and sue them. Does this make the RIAA a fake medium?

And how can we prove definitively that someone is or is not in communication with the dearly departed? I ask, because it's a dodgy business this declaiming people as fakes. Or even disagreeing with them. I'm reminded of this unrelated but salutory tale of a militant writer and a website. Imagine if Derek Acorah suffered a sense of humour failure and decided to get litigious.

(I assume, if it came to court, one could go the Randi route and show that anything the Medium could do was easily replicated by someone using Cold Reading techniques. Perhaps one might call Derren Brown to demonstrate (but then, could you ever be sure you'd called him of your own free will?)).
 
CodenameThrow said:
I think some confusion is arising over the continued use of the word "deprogramming".
We all know what deprogramming means and it's very different from having a gentle chat with a friends kid. For me, the beef is that Ducky deliberately chose to imply that he did something he didn't, for dramatic effect, using an abuse scenario as leverage.

Right, Ducky?
 
GadaffiDuck said:
Actually, I would only be happy if she went to a CBT practitioner. However, I'm glad you wish her well (you are the first to do so)

Actually, no, she wasn't...

Fizz said:
I just hope the friends you have "treated" remain well, and that if they do suffer any long term damage from your amateur therapies, they have access to proper, qualified, professional help and do not return to you for "treatment" that may further damage them.

I think what you're after here is for everyone to clap you on the back and tell you job well done... do you have even the remotest clue as to the effects your actions COULD possibly have on others? If you're walking around telling people that you're a counselour of any type, I'd find that questionable.

Also, anytime anyone here calls you up on anything, you waffle around. Your previous post where you quoted Throw, and then said you meant to reply to Escargot? If you re-read Throw's 1. post, it makes perfect sense. It wasn't mis-timed, or mis-quoted. But then, I guess it's those damn Americans again, eh? :roll:
 
sighs. I have never told anyone I was a counsellor - i have too much respect for myself for that. I was helping someone out. It took as few weeks. Part of the cause was a mystic/medium type. Yeah, I gave myself props. Hurrah, lets do what Doc Oc suggests.
 
So you deprogrammed someone by using counselling techniques?
Counselling is a client-led practice. I don't see how it could be used in that way.

How exactly did you do this deprogramming? Or was it actually more of a friendly chat, just the three of you adults and the teenage girl? Was she free to leave at any time, as with a counselling session?
 
:lol: - No, Escargot. If you want to start a thread on comparitive techniques, I am more than happy to join in - but, from an academic perspective.
 
Perhaps Duck, just a little word of advice here, you need to be careful in how you phrase things in the future. You said previously you thought you used the word de-programming in the right sense. Now, how can someone with as much experience, knowledge and everything else you say you have, make such a boob? I mean come on, you told us you had enough books to build yourself a house the other day, so surely somewhere along the line, the correct definition of "de-programming" should have come up in one of your weighty tomes, unless they're all chick-lit or Mills and Boon.

There are an awful lot of extremely knowledgable people on this forum and the pissedoffness came from the fact that you made an off the cuff comment which was basically a) untrue b) dangerous and c) very silly and you expected everyone to swallow it because you said it with such an air of authority, implying you knew exactly what you were saying.

Like good Forteans we will question, just don't get huffy when we do. Especially when you make such claims.

Now go off like the wonderful Polymath you are and tell Kofi Annan where he's going wrong! ;)
 
No, I don't want to 'start a thread on comparitive techniques', I want to know what YOU did.

You said you deprogrammed someone using counselling techniques, with her parents' blessing, after she became involved with someone her parents disapproved of.

I want to know
1. how you did this
2. why you thought it was an ethically or morally sound thing to do
3. whether you are prepared for the possible consequences
4. why you did this rather than approach the police with your concerns about the individual who you believed was giving her drugs.

That'll do for starters.
 
I have more than explained above, Escargot.I do not want to get into a war over the definition of counselling next or behaviourial therapy - get a text book. I think counselling is a good way of getting people to talk (empathy/sympathy model) but I don't personally believe it has much therapeutical benefit. Deprogramme/behaviour change - it is not any different from any number of self'help book advice (changing thinking patterns etc)
To tyger: I'm sure there are knowledgeable people here - however, to de-programme has a number of definitions (and yes I do have enough books for a small book house :D ). As the many knowledgeable people here know, in psychology etc the same word (e.g. therapy) can have a number of meanings, depending on 'school' and context. The idea of changing behaviour (and calling it deprogramming) has a long pedigree and is used(outside of cult weird type stuff) by a host of different people. A simple example is the in the 'human brain as a computer' metaphor.

So, let me get a question back to you guys - what would you have done in the position I was in? Note: these are good friends, and I am godfather to the daughter. So, please, I've tried answering nicely, get off my back a little bit. :D (see smiley face too)
 
So, you have no real answers then? You have NOT explained yourself at all. All you have done is try to confuse the issue.
 
Not really - if you are interested I am happy to discuss certain things in PM. But just to not confuse the issue - my take on the counselling method is that it is soothing; by that I mean, when one goes to a psychiatrist one knows he/she is a doctor and there are many issues about self esteem e.g. am I mad etc. With a clinical psychologist, it is very professional as well, and also leads to questions about 'mental health'. Counselling, is a half way house, in that it offers mental health solutions (apparantly) but isn't as scarey as the doctor's office. I'm not convinced that getting a person to talk over something again and again is beneficial.

As said, I am not a therapist - I deny it all the time (as people often confuse psychology with psychotherapy - the number of parties I go to and hear 'ooo, I suppose you are analysing me'...gah, a quid for each time and I'd have about $60 by now). Anyhoo, so by me not coming over as a professional 'shrink' and letting someone else speak (thus the counselling method) one can build initial rapport. Indeed, that is what I think counselling does best...building a relationship of trust between client and therapist.

After that point, my own style is based on socratic irony. I built this up over years of advising friends - that is my role to a wide circle of friend -, and this is also the reason I'm now going to be taking a therapy qualification - my friends reckon I should get paid...I don't disagree. Thus gentle socratic irony (questionning to find inconsistancies) helps to establish how and what the person is thinking, and lets them pick up their own error (should errors exist). After that one can then apply, with permission, suggestions for looking at things differently - this is a very light method of classic CBT. I hope that you are not thinking that I was using any forceful methods. That way lies a path to the past or American terrorist camps.

Why I continue to say deprogramming (and believe I am right) is that this person's belief system had changed (along with character traits).. If, by getting someone to change their thoughts e.g from I'm depressed to I'm happy, is this not deprogramming?
 
GadaffiDuck said:
Not really - if you are interested I am happy to discuss certain things in PM. But just to not confuse the issue - my take on the counselling method is that it is soothing; by that I mean, when one goes to a psychiatrist one knows he/she is a doctor and there are many issues about self esteem e.g. am I mad etc. With a clinical psychologist, it is very professional as well, and also leads to questions about 'mental health'. Counselling, is a half way house, in that it offers mental health solutions (apparantly) but isn't as scarey as the doctor's office. I'm not convinced that getting a person to talk over something again and again is beneficial.

As said, I am not a therapist - I deny it all the time (as people often confuse psychology with psychotherapy - the number of parties I go to and hear 'ooo, I suppose you are analysing me'...gah, a quid for each time and I'd have about $60 by now). Anyhoo, so by me not coming over as a professional 'shrink' and letting someone else speak (thus the counselling method) one can build initial rapport. Indeed, that is what I think counselling does best...building a relationship of trust between client and therapist.

After that point, my own style is based on socratic irony. I built this up over years of advising friends - that is my role to a wide circle of friend -, and this is also the reason I'm now going to be taking a therapy qualification - my friends reckon I should get paid...I don't disagree. Thus gentle socratic irony (questionning to find inconsistancies) helps to establish how and what the person is thinking, and lets them pick up their own error (should errors exist). After that one can then apply, with permission, suggestions for looking at things differently - this is a very light method of classic CBT. I hope that you are not thinking that I was using any forceful methods. That way lies a path to the past or American terrorist camps.

Why I continue to say deprogramming (and believe I am right) is that this person's belief system had changed (along with character traits).. If, by getting someone to change their thoughts e.g from I'm depressed to I'm happy, is this not deprogramming?

I think that in specific relation to CULT behaviour - which is what you were SPECIFICALLY talking about - there is no room for the different interpretations relating to different schools etc. that you mentioned. You were speaking precisely in relation to cultish behaviour - you used the word deprogramming - the word in that context is saddled with a great deal of negative association. why is it such a big deal anyway? in this instance - because the context is a cult, and you are convinced that you didn't do anything wrong - then people are bound to jump on you for using the word deprogramming, which in this SPECIFIC context, and it's all about the specifics remember, is generally regarded as A Very Bad Thing
 
GadaffiDuck said:
So, let me get a question back to you guys - what would you have done in the position I was in? Note: these are good friends, and I am godfather to the daughter. So, please, I've tried answering nicely, get off my back a little bit. :D (see smiley face too)

What would I have done? I would have done my best to persuade the child's parents to contact the police, as you mentioned that the supply of drugs was involved. (If they weren't happy to do so, I would have made it clear that if they didn't, I would.) I would have advised the parents to contact the girl's school, in order that people who are qualified and experienced in dealing with such situations could agree, with the parents, the best way to deal with this for the girl's long term welfare.

After that, as a friend, I'd have supplied as much help and support to the family as I could while they were going through a difficult time.
 
I agree with Fizz and in addition I would have explained to the daughter what I was going to do as well so she could have made a choice as to whether she decided to continue with her chosen lifestyle at that point.

What I would not have done was gone on a public MB spouting off that I was "de-programming" friend's children in the same rash way that you would talk about digging your allotment. As she is your Goddaughter (which if people know you and they [the family in question] actually exist) this breaks their confidence horrendously and puts you in a very bad light indeed. Personally if I was them and I found out how blase you've been about all this and how you've disclosed it, you'd no longer be welcome round tea and cake.

We are still waiting for a reply to Escargot's question. You claim you de-programmed, she asked by what methods. You refuse to explain but you're not at all worried about giving out people's particulars.

We'll get off your back when you answer our questions (after all you did make quite a claim) and I'm sure if someone else had said such a thing you'd be one of the first asking for an explanation (as well as putting your twopenneth worth in as well!).
 
Yes, tyger I went through that approach. To throw; deprogramming may have those connotations to you (I accept that), to me, however, I am aware of the use of terminology (but I accept that you are not; and I should have thought more carefully). I was not aware that most people look at the word deprogramming in the negative - I have only really seen the negative side (or I should say, counter opinion to what occurs in America) as text book examples - I imagine most of you have not done so, but have read articles in newspapers or the FT.

To fizz etc, the whole point was not to go to the police, get social services involved or make mountains out of molehills (not unless there was something there that couldn't be 'fixed'). Indeed, as I have said, the family are very much of the upbringing that DOES not go to social services, have counselling etc. Think old fashioned middle class - keep it in the family, modern version of stiff upper lip. It is also a version of the view that I believe in - self reliance.

The point - and back to the point of this thread - was the problem with magical thinking (and IMO fraudulent mediums). However, as a reasonable person, I take your points of view. I have spoken to my mentor (who works in special needs educative psychology, is an ex psychodynamic counsellor etc - indeed, I discussed, at the time, elements of what I should do. His view was much like mine - if you can keep it in house, then do so.) He thinks that my approach was fine, in the circs. Re the mystic - I have found out that he does make living from contacting the dead (whatcha know? I didn't think he was that good). Sadly, there is no 'proof' of him doing anything bad over than being a focal point for a gaggle of people - the problem is (THE PROBLEM) is that when a charasmatic person can persuade people that this stuff (tarot/ mediumship etc) is true, it can lead to all kinds of problems - I do accept that teenage angst etc is part of the problem (when is it not? :lol: ), but, it is my opinion that magical thinking is not (usually) the best cognitive mode for teens. My view is that one can be interested, but don't live your life by it - I know how fascinated I was at that age (rituals, cards, you name it), but I didn't let it detract from a rational world view. I say again, the main benefit is, is that the family are happy.

Further, it makes anyone out there any happier, I will be taking 'professional' qualifications for offering therapy - exactly which school is still open to discussion.
 
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