Genuine Question: Why Is John Keel So Revered?

[Austin Popper]

Do you have any specific examples of persons Keel phoned whose number(s) he shouldn't have been able to locate on his own?

He had no end of trouble with his telephone. Also his mail. Someone would occasionally get into his apartment and do things that sound an awful lot like sophisticated harassment. He, being an experienced reporter, made several attempts to get to the bottom of the phone troubles, to the point of visiting his local exchange and getting someone to show him where his pair of wires entered the building, and where they were connected. He quizzed the technician about how wire taps worked, and so on. He got enormous telephone bills, for calls made when he was out of town or even when his telephone was not working. Some of the phone trouble is pretty over the top. I don't think he was in the business of making things like that up. Of course the notes were for his own use, so they are very personal at times.

Some of the phone calls to others, ostensibly about Keel himself and often about sightings that were known to only a few people, don't add up at all. They just don't make any sense in any context we have access to.

http://www.johnkeel.com/ is the place where his notes and correspondence get posted. It's fascinating stuff. Take a sandwich.

 

[James_H]

TTSA deserves a thread of its own if there isn't already one.

 

[Austin Popper]

Here are a few of Keel's notes that contain some intriguing phone oddness, among other improbable things. It also has an excellent example of Keel's attitude about his "frienemy" Moseley.

Careful, it's quite a rabbit hole: http://www.johnkeel.com/?p=3750

It seems obvious there was some serious tampering going on. Back then, nobody who was not involved knew anything about COINTELPRO and such evil shit. The "Bennewitz Affair" atrocities were years in the future.

 

[James_H]

I also appreciate how John Keel wrote about the less nuts-and-bolts, more Fortean and spooky side of the UFO phenomenon.

 

[humanoidlord]

Probably to be ignored unless/until they come up with something concrete.

i thought the same but thanks to some annoying twitter accounts, this has been receiving way more fame than it should

 

[humanoidlord]

He had no end of trouble with his telephone. Also his mail. Someone would occasionally get into his apartment and do things that sound an awful lot like sophisticated harassment. He, being an experienced reporter, made several attempts to get to the bottom of the phone troubles, to the point of visiting his local exchange and getting someone to show him where his pair of wires entered the building, and where they were connected. He quizzed the technician about how wire taps worked, and so on. He got enormous telephone bills, for calls made when he was out of town or even when his telephone was not working. Some of the phone trouble is pretty over the top. I don't think he was in the business of making things like that up. Of course the notes were for his own use, so they are very personal at times.

yes i think the fact he wrote all this stuff in his personal journal (or whatever that was supposed to be) is the smoking gun that those things really happened, why he would write detailed accounts of them wich he never published if he was just bullshitting?

Some of the phone calls to others, ostensibly about Keel himself and often about sightings that were known to only a few people, don't add up at all. They just don't make any sense in any context we have access to.

yes, i have said non-listed people were harrased as much as the listed people, and this was in the pre-internet age, where forums full of sleuthy types like 4chan din't exist yet

 

[humanoidlord]

TTSA deserves a thread of its own if there isn't already one.

better not, its such a huge rabbit hole, that just trying to think what it could be (civillian hoax or doty style operation) makes me insane

 

[humanoidlord]

Here are a few of Keel's notes that contain some intriguing phone oddness, among other improbable things. It also has an excellent example of Keel's attitude about his "frienemy" Moseley.

Careful, it's quite a rabbit hole: http://www.johnkeel.com/?p=3750

It seems obvious there was some serious tampering going on. Back then, nobody who was not involved knew anything about COINTELPRO and such evil shit. The "Bennewitz Affair" atrocities were years in the future.

agreed

 

[dr wu]

If Keel did indeed have these 'weird experiences' then he must have been picked on by The Trickster because many other ufologists including Dr Vallee who also did very similar investigations didn't seem to have the same 'problems' or 'weird events' happen around them as often as Keel claims. I suspect that Keel embellished his tales and we will never really know how much was legitimate.

 

[humanoidlord]

If Keel did indeed have these 'weird experiences' then he must have been picked on by The Trickster because many other ufologists including Dr Vallee who also did very similar investigations didn't seem to have the same 'problems' or 'weird events' happen around them as often as Keel claims. I suspect that Keel embellished his tales and we will never really know how much was legitimate.

vallee never investigated an active hotspot, in fact his only sighting was a very brief peek at a saucer when he was a teen
while keel basically chased UFO waves across america, stopping to skywatch whenever he found a interesting spot

 

[Sharon Hill]

It's a bit weird to read this thread. In the last 2 years, it seems like all paranormal things were rolling back to Keel. I was having this discussion with some knowledgeable friends for a long while. I will post a podcast interview link where we recorded a bit of it. Of course, the Vallee influence is there too. But lately reading Keel's The Complete Guide to Mysterious Beings, I saw Fort dripping out from it like crazy. They call Fort the guy who "invented the supernatural" in cultural discourse as we know it. I'm not convinced it goes that far; Keel has a much bigger claim to that title.

Regarding TTSA, maybe it was bigger in the US. It dominated ufology discussion here mainly because Tom DeLonge was a big pop star and got access to legit government officials. The company attempted to raise money through a public stock offering (that was intended, it seemed, to pay DeLonge). It's a bunch of silly business that mixes "facts" and fiction and their reputation seems to be split in the US ufological community - though the majority of serious researchers think it's a joke. This thread might help: https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...-governments-clandestine-ufo-programme.63370/

 

[Austin Popper]

I would be interested in reading the opinions of others who have read a significant amount of Keel's personal journal. Again, that's what it is no matter what other purposes it may have served. We all have opinions, but I've always been biased toward informed opinions. I'm weird like that. Keel's published work is well known, but his private notes are not. I find the latter surprisingly illuminating. It is often quite amusing as well.

Not very many readers over at johnkeel.com post comments, but those who do seem keen on blaming all of the weirdness around "Jaye Paro" on the woman herself, a proposition I find laughable, frankly. She was obviously prone to fantasy, but she would hardly have been capable of orchestrating such complex interactions. I strongly suspect there was some amount of genuine weirdness happening, but much of what went on has TLA written all over it. As in Three Letter Agency. Keel himself thought so. There were a couple of times the "aliens" were apparently trying to set him up for a massive public humiliation, but he was too smart or too cautious (or both) to take the bait. He knew he was a prime target for such attempts. I'm impressed that he kept trying to get to the bottom of what was going on when he knew he was being manipulated. Most people in situations like that don't come out of it so well. Keel was far from unscathed by it, but he managed to keep his reputation and hence his livelihood.

Something I have not seen over at that blog, or anywhere else, is comment on the obviously suspicious connection between Jim Moseley and some very shady operations, seen in the page at the link I posted up in message #33. I suppose it is plausible that the cause and effect generated by the "silencing" sting dreamed up by Keel happened because Moseley's phone was tapped at the time and Keel's was not, but the more obvious conclusion is something darker. The more I learn about Moseley, the more I suspect there was more to him than the insufferable prat we all knew.

For the record, I do not consider myself a fan of Keel. I respect his work, more so after getting a look behind the curtain, but I know better than to believe every word of anything I read. He was, in essence, a professional story teller but that does not make him a liar. For one thing, there is way too much well attested, documented weirdness around many of the things he investigated. He was very persistent, which makes the whole "Mothman" episode all the more interesting.

 

[dr wu]

vallee never investigated an active hotspot, in fact his only sighting was a very brief peek at a saucer when he was a teen
while keel basically chased UFO waves across america, stopping to skywatch whenever he found a interesting spot

Keel couldn't know to investigate a spot unless something happened..so it was also after the fact for him also. He might have spent more time 'hunting' weird events while staying at a town but Vallee was at plenty of weird places interviewing the witnesses.
Again ...I suspect that since Keel was a journalist/writer he probably made his tales more exciting that they were in reality.

 

[humanoidlord]

It's a bit weird to read this thread. In the last 2 years, it seems like all paranormal things were rolling back to Keel. I was having this discussion with some knowledgeable friends for a long while. I will post a podcast interview link where we recorded a bit of it. Of course, the Vallee influence is there too. But lately reading Keel's The Complete Guide to Mysterious Beings, I saw Fort dripping out from it like crazy. They call Fort the guy who "invented the supernatural" in cultural discourse as we know it. I'm not convinced it goes that far; Keel has a much bigger claim to that title.

i can only hope ufologists start taking keel seriously, it would be the first time they made a sane decision

Regarding TTSA, maybe it was bigger in the US. It dominated ufology discussion here mainly because Tom DeLonge was a big pop star and got access to legit government officials. The company attempted to raise money through a public stock offering (that was intended, it seemed, to pay DeLonge). It's a bunch of silly business that mixes "facts" and fiction and their reputation seems to be split in the US ufological community - though the majority of serious researchers think it's a joke. This thread might help: https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...-governments-clandestine-ufo-programme.63370/

still i have meet at least one very ufology educated man who thought TTSA is the real deal, so the threat is real

 

[Austin Popper]

Keel couldn't know to investigate a spot unless something happened..so it was also after the fact for him also. He might have spent more time 'hunting' weird events while staying at a town but Vallee was at plenty of weird places interviewing the witnesses.
Again ...I suspect that since Keel was a journalist/writer he probably made his tales more exciting that they were in reality.

I don't get why you would expect those two guys to have the same experiences. Aside from the obvious differences in their backgrounds and approaches (Vallee is highly educated and is all about the data while Keel was a writer chasing stories through the mud), paranormal type situations and events are hardly consistent from one county to another or one year to another. I'd be very interested to learn whether Vallee thinks Keel was making things up. Please read some of Keel's journal if you have the time. I'd like to get your take on it. I think you'd find it interesting too. It's worth reading about Princess Moon Owl just for the Tim Burton style goofiness of her antics. I mean, anybody who goes around leaving a trail of feathers in her wake is interesting in my book!

 

[humanoidlord]

I would be interested in reading the opinions of others who have read a significant amount of Keel's personal journal. Again, that's what it is no matter what other purposes it may have served. We all have opinions, but I've always been biased toward informed opinions. I'm weird like that. Keel's published work is well known, but his private notes are not. I find the latter surprisingly illuminating. It is often quite amusing as well.

i have read a bit of it and i have i agree with you
nobody would do something like that if it was a stupid hoax

Keel himself thought so

but he later dropped this theory, mostly because its a bit unlikely NSA or CIA has an entire department of strange vampiric looking men who harass UFO witnesses

Something I have not seen over at that blog, or anywhere else, is comment on the obviously suspicious connection between Jim Moseley and some very shady operations, seen in the page at the link I posted up in message #33. I suppose it is plausible that the cause and effect generated by the "silencing" sting dreamed up by Keel happened because Moseley's phone was tapped at the time and Keel's was not, but the more obvious conclusion is something darker. The more I learn about Moseley, the more I suspect there was more to him than the insufferable prat we all knew.

moseley was a early attempt to pull a richard doty, thankfully it failed
in fact moseley was a skeptic a fact he din't leave secret in his later years

For the record, I do not consider myself a fan of Keel. I respect his work, more so after getting a look behind the curtain, but I know better than to believe every word of anything I read. He was, in essence, a professional story teller but that does not make him a liar. For one thing, there is way too much well attested, documented weirdness around many of the things he investigated. He was very persistent, which makes the whole "Mothman" episode all the more interesting.

but still 50 years later, nobody cares (or has the balls) to repeat his experiment, so he definitely deserves praise for what he did

 

[humanoidlord]

Keel couldn't know to investigate a spot unless something happened..so it was also after the fact for him also. He might have spent more time 'hunting' weird events while staying at a town but Vallee was at plenty of weird places interviewing the witnesses.
Again ...I suspect that since Keel was a journalist/writer he probably made his tales more exciting that they were in reality.

his journal is a great argument angaist his theory
mostly because a lot of it din't end in the books

 

[Austin Popper]

i have read a bit of it and i have i agree with you
nobody would do something like that if it was a stupid hoax

but he later dropped this theory, mostly because its a bit unlikely NSA or CIA has an entire department of strange vampiric looking men who harass UFO witnesses

moseley was a early attempt to pull a richard doty, thankfully it failed
in fact moseley was a skeptic a fact he din't leave secret in his later years

but still 50 years later, nobody cares (or has the balls) to repeat his experiment, so he definitely deserves praise for what he did

I don't think he embellished his serious reports any more than the average journalist does. Of course he wrote a lot of fiction too, and if the stuff in his journal was nothing more than fiction, he left an awful lot of good stuff there without attempting to capitalize on it. I think he didn't mention Princess Moon Owl in any of his serious work (that I know of) for the same reason most UFO authors avoided mentioning psychic or otherworldly events or reports associated with their cases: the topic was already considered too weird by many people and such lurid and confusing episodes probably wouldn't have helped their credibility. PMO was too far over the top.

Anyway, I have gotten not the slightest whiff of any such embellishment while reading his notes. Much of what he reported was crazy, but it was what was reported to him. His write-ups read more like police reports than fictional ramblings, let alone fantasy.

 

[Sharon Hill]

At the first CryptidCon (in Kentucky, 2017) we saw Keel's influence all over the place. Everything was "ultraterrestrial". You can hear our discussion about it here: CryptidCon 2017: Dr. Jeb Card and Blake Smith – Sept 24, 2017

Also, it's discussed on MonsterTalk here: https://www.skeptic.com/podcasts/monstertalk/18/01/17/

 

[humanoidlord]

I don't think he embellished his serious reports any more than the average journalist does. Of course he wrote a lot of fiction too, and if the stuff in his journal was nothing more than fiction, he left an awful lot of good stuff there without attempting to capitalize on it. I think he didn't mention Princess Moon Owl in any of his serious work (that I know of) for the same reason most UFO authors avoided mentioning psychic or otherworldly events or reports associated with their cases: the topic was already considered too weird by many people and such lurid and confusing episodes probably wouldn't have helped their credibility. PMO was too far over the top.

yes exactly, he left out a lot of things in his book, mostly because some of them hit too close to home

 

[humanoidlord]

At the first CryptidCon (in Kentucky, 2017) we saw Keel's influence all over the place. Everything was "ultraterrestrial". You can hear our discussion about it here: CryptidCon 2017: Dr. Jeb Card and Blake Smith – Sept 24, 2017

Also, it's discussed on MonsterTalk here: https://www.skeptic.com/podcasts/monstertalk/18/01/17/

eh, i ain't a fan of podcasts (mostly because not being a native speaker, its hard to see what the people are saying)
could you do a summary?
also that is very surprising, if you even dare to mention IDH in any of the more popular fortean forums in the internet, you are usually going to be teared to shreds

 

[humanoidlord]

Also, it's discussed on MonsterTalk here: https://www.skeptic.com/podcasts/monstertalk/18/01/17/

hmmm you seem to be mistaking the keelian ultraterrestrial theory with the demonic theory
wich are completely different things

 

[Sharon Hill]

eh, i ain't a fan of podcasts (mostly because not being a native speaker, its hard to see what the people are saying)
could you do a summary?
also that is very surprising, if you even dare to mention IDH in any of the more popular fortean forums in the internet, you are usually going to be teared to shreds

Popular Fortean Forums? Which are those?

The gist of it was that cryptids these days are so bizarre that they fail simple biological tests. That is, they are non-zoological, emit strange fogs, mess up equipment, cause weird sensations, disappear into thin air, etc. They are clearly not natural but supernatural. So, the ultraterrestrial hypothesis, or IDH as you call it, is invoked - Bigfoot from portals and whatnot.

Demons? Eh, less so. But, yeah, you can find that claim around.

 

[humanoidlord]

Popular Fortean Forums? Which are those?

ATS, reddit's r/ufos (this one is the worst offender), avalon etc

The gist of it was that cryptids these days are so bizarre that they fail simple biological tests. That is, they are non-zoological, emit strange fogs, mess up equipment, cause weird sensations, disappear into thin air, etc. They are clearly not natural but supernatural. So, the ultraterrestrial hypothesis, or IDH as you call it, is invoked - Bigfoot from portals and whatnot.

but most people forget that it was keel that first thought that, the interdimensional bigfoot explanation has many people who claim that they first discovered it

Demons? Eh, less so. But, yeah, you can find that claim around.

sadly, keel himself stated that demons are just one of the many disquises used by the cosmic trickster

 

[Sharon Hill]

ATS, reddit's r/ufos (this one is the worst offender), avalon etc

but most people forget that it was keel that first thought that, the interdimensional bigfoot explanation has many people who claim that they first discovered it

sadly, keel himself stated that demons are just one of the many disquises used by the cosmic trickster

It's an interesting idea that ATS would be considered a "Fortean" thing. It seems more of a conspiracy site. But I suppose the entire anti-authority thing is very Fortean. I'd love to hear more thoughts on that. (I also find it interesting that Fort was American but the core of Forteana remains in the UK now. ATS seems very America-centric - but I could be wrong because I don't have time or patience to waste for that site.)

Regarding the interdimensional stuff, think about the current popularity of shapeshifters, Skinwalker Ranch, dogmen (see Linda Godfrey's Monsters Among Us, for example) and places of high strangeness. These are pretty much mainstream cultural products these days; very much a Keelian vibe. If you go to a cryptid or broad-topic paranormal conference in the US, you will hear Keel's name dropped a lot.

 

[Austin Popper]

I haven't been to ATS in a long time. There was some good stuff there, posted by some good people, but it's a bit like a decent bagel shop in a very nasty neighborhood. I don't have the time or the stomach to try to dig out the good stuff from the mountain of garbage posted there by the people I have come to think of as droolers. It really is a depressing place. When I did post there, back before it became a complete ghetto, it seemed like I was either considered a credulous bleever or a gummint agent suppressing the truth about Lazar or Dulce or the like. In other words, not much intelligent life there. I would not call it a Fortean site by any stretch. It barely passes muster as a "paranormal" site, which isn't saying much. Tinfoil hat zone, really.

Reddit seems to be short for "arrested adolescence".

The Paracast forum was okay, until the owner managed to run off anyone with a lick of sense. It's a bad joke now.

 

[humanoidlord]

It's an interesting idea that ATS would be considered a "Fortean" thing. It seems more of a conspiracy site. But I suppose the entire anti-authority thing is very Fortean. I'd love to hear more thoughts on that. (I also find it interesting that Fort was American but the core of Forteana remains in the UK now. ATS seems very America-centric - but I could be wrong because I don't have time or patience to waste for that site.)

sadly ATS isn't fortean anymore, most posts are politics related but there are interesting stuff sometimes

Regarding the interdimensional stuff, think about the current popularity of shapeshifters, Skinwalker Ranch, dogmen (see Linda Godfrey's Monsters Among Us, for example) and places of high strangeness. These are pretty much mainstream cultural products these days; very much a Keelian vibe. If you go to a cryptid or broad-topic paranormal conference in the US, you will hear Keel's name dropped a lot.

but saying that you agree with IDH is heresy elsewhere and you will probally be lynched if you say it

The Paracast forum was okay, until the owner managed to run off anyone with a lick of sense. It's a bad joke now.

funny thing that steinberg was a good friend of james moseley....
go figure

 

[Sharon Hill]

sadly ATS isn't fortean anymore, most posts are politics related but there are interesting stuff sometimes

but saying that you agree with IDH is heresy elsewhere and you will probally be lynched if you say it

funny thing that steinberg was a good friend of james moseley....
go figure

I think "lynched" is a bit harsh. Like I said, it seems quite mainstream.

I was on The Paracast a few months ago. I told them UFOs was not really my thing but they kept asking about it constantly. I won't go back on. I didn't visit the forum.

 

[dr wu]

I don't get why you would expect those two guys to have the same experiences. Aside from the obvious differences in their backgrounds and approaches (Vallee is highly educated and is all about the data while Keel was a writer chasing stories through the mud), paranormal type situations and events are hardly consistent from one county to another or one year to another. I'd be very interested to learn whether Vallee thinks Keel was making things up. Please read some of Keel's journal if you have the time. I'd like to get your take on it. I think you'd find it interesting too. It's worth reading about Princess Moon Owl just for the Tim Burton style goofiness of her antics. I mean, anybody who goes around leaving a trail of feathers in her wake is interesting in my book!

I'm not equating exact experiences......but Dr Vallee (and others..) did similar investigations from what I have read ( Dr Vallee did talk about some very strange people in Messengers of Deception) so one would think he might have had some similar weird events happen. .Why would the 'alien tricksters' only pick on Keel? Sounds more like someone was pranking him at times.
But I will take a look at his journals...I have read almost all of his books on ufos and Disneyland of the Gods also.

 

[dr wu]

his journal is a great argument angaist his theory
mostly because a lot of it din't end in the books

Well..we don't know what Keel intended in his journal writings....perhaps he was a bit 'eccentric'.