Ghost Rockets in 1650? (Sky Battle Of Nuremberg)

feinman

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"APPARITIONS.—A Relation of Several Strange, and Wonderful Apparitions Seen in the Air in Germany and Sweden, That is, A Fight between Two Armys, and divers Bullets flying in the Sky, from whence proceeded great streams of Fire like Snakes or Fiery Serpents. With several other Prodigies. To which is added, An Account of a Great Battel among a Multitude of Doggs, against whom four Companies of Musquetiers being sent from a Neighbouring Garrison, the Dogs joyned together and fell upon them, and in despight of their Guns, Routed the Soulders, and seized nine of them, whom they tore to pieces and devoured. London, Printed for J. H. 4to."

http://tinyurl.com/kvqkme7

The original source, from 1650:
http://tinyurl.com/p3mez7j

Searching with the words in bold as a phrase in Google, only brings back those two references from the internet! If anyone finds a reference to this on another site, please let me know.

From the "Ghost Rockets" Wikipedia article:

"In a 1967 lecture to the Greek Astronomical Society, broadcast on Athens Radio, Santorinis first publicly revealed what had been found in his 1947 investigation. "We soon established that they were not missiles. But, before we could do any more, the Army, after conferring with foreign officials (presumably U.S. Defense Dept.), ordered the investigation stopped. Foreign scientists [from Washington] flew to Greece for secret talks with me". Later Santorinis told UFO researchers such as Raymond Fowler that secrecy was invoked because officials were afraid to admit of a superior technology against which we have "no possibility of defense".[7]"
 

simon155

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heh not sure what to make of the top bit.

As for the bottom bit, does that logically make sense to you? If theres a technology you don't currently have any possibility of defense against, the logical approach would be to investigate until you do.

To instead go around requesting everyone call off their research and not look into it further appears to be the very opposite. I assume the statement instead roughly translates to "This is a fob off. Your research is dangerous and we don't want you to find out more about what we're working on. Thanks."

That or the other equally credible "This report is made up and the lack of logical coherence is because I'm making it up as I go and I didn't think it out".
 

Graylien

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I'm more intrigued by the account of the "Great Battel among a Multitude of Doggs". The whole fiery serpent thing sounds like someone getting all dramatic about a meteor shower.

Actually, I think there might be something about those fiery serpents in one of my compilations of The Unexplained. I'll have a butchers for it later.
 

simon155

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Are the soldiers the dogs or the musquetiers? Its easy to assume lol. We've all seen dog fights so its anyones guess if he meant planes meteors or anything.

It may even be a harsh warning about the effects of hallucigenics lol
 

eburacum

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I wonder if this is a reference to the famous Sky Battle of Nuremberg, less than ninety years before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg

As I've posted on this forum before, the Nuremberg event might be a garbled account of a spectacular halo apparition, and it seems that there are some other people that have come to the same conclusion.

ancientaliensdebunked.com/nuremburg-ufo-battle-debunked/
Link is dead. The MIA webpage can be accessed via the Wayback Machine:


https://web.archive.org/web/2015071...nsdebunked.com/nuremburg-ufo-battle-debunked/
 
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Ringo

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Strange lights and colours were also reproted in the skies over Stockholm in 1471 during the Battle of Brunkeberg. Most official reports at the time talked about them but modern day accounts of the battle don't mention them at all.

The original reports stated that these lights scared everyone on the battlefield but the Swedes were quicker to rally round and defeat the attacking Danish army. They were described by some as streaking across the sky leaving smoke in their wake.

Muskets were used during the battle so some smoke and powder would be expected but I feel there might be someting more to all these "ghost rocket" reports that have plagued Scandinavia for over 600 years.
 
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GeorgeP

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Ezekiels Wheel is considered by many - including a NASA engineer - to be one of the first CE3s with an ET. I once got a book from the charity shop on this subject. The Nasa guy drew diagrams and images of what he believes was an actual ET craft and not God and his angels.
 
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GeorgeP

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Didn't Columbus report seeing a fiery ball of light fall into the seas near Bermuda?
 

EnolaGaia

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Didn't Columbus report seeing a fiery ball of light fall into the seas near Bermuda?

The book based on his journal (now lost ...) states in the entry for 15 September 1492 - about 1 week into the voyage:

"They sailed that day and night 27 leagues and a few more on their route west. And on this night, at the beginning of it, they saw a marvelous branch of fire fall from the sky into the sea, distant from them four or five leagues."
 

eburacum

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Contemporary illustrations of ice halo phenomena look very similar to the Nurnberg illustration, although there seems to have been a certain amount of exaggeration going on in 1561:

fefe.jpg
 
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feinman

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That's right. Contemporary illustrations of ice halo phenomena look very similar to the Nurnberg illustration, although there seems to have been a certain amount of exaggeration going on in 1561;
fefe.jpg

I was actually referring to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg
Read about how the objects moved --rushing at each other, and compare with the Farmington objects' movements: ...

1561:
"In the morning of April 14, 1561, at daybreak, between 4 and 5 a.m., a dreadful apparition occurred on the sun, and then this was seen in Nuremberg in the city, before the gates and in the country – by many men and women. At first there appeared in the middle of the sun two blood-red semi-circular arcs, just like the moon in its last quarter. And in the sun, above and below and on both sides, the color was blood, there stood a round ball of partly dull, partly black ferrous color. Likewise there stood on both sides and as a torus about the sun such blood-red ones and other balls in large number, about three in a line and four in a square, also some alone. In between these globes there were visible a few blood-red crosses, between which there were blood-red strips, becoming thicker to the rear and in the front malleable like the rods of reed-grass, which were intermingled, among them two big rods, one on the right, the other to the left, and within the small and big rods there were three, also four and more globes. These all started to fight among themselves, so that the globes, which were first in the sun, flew out to the ones standing on both sides, thereafter, the globes standing outside the sun, in the small and large rods, flew into the sun. Besides the globes flew back and forth among themselves and fought vehemently with each other for over an hour. "

Himmelserscheinung_%C3%BCber_N%C3%BCrnberg_vom_14._April_1561.jpg


LinkSeltsame_Gestalt_so_in_disem_MDLXVI_Jar.jpg
 
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feinman

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So was I. The Nurnberg event seems to have been celestial phenomena, possibly described and depicted by someone who only had a second hand account.
It doesn't sound like a celestial phenomenon to me; nothing since has behaved that way. Remember, some of the smaller objects grew hot and eventually burned on the ground --as if old or damaged von Neumann probes were being discarded.
 

eburacum

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The Nuremberg account has been nicely explained as well, as a parhelia event. I've given my reasons as to why this explanation seems plausible.
Here's Frank Johnson's view of the matter.

https://web.archive.org/web/2013010...nsdebunked.com/nuremburg-ufo-battle-debunked/
Unfortunately, despite being very convincing proof of aliens at first glance, and after a superficial perusal of the facts (which is all I and many ever do) seemingly confirming a space oddity, the most likely explanation is rather mundane. The best possible explanation for the Nuremberg 1561 UFO Battle is merely several atmospheric phenomena, most notably a “sundog” or “parhelion,” which kicked the whole thing off.


The sun dog on the right (Vädersolstavlan) was interpreted as an omen of God’s revenge on King Gustav Vasa.

Sun dogs are weird looking enough to make it seem that something really odd is going on in the sky. But a sundog is basically Earth’s atmosphere or ice in the upper parts of the sky acting as a prism or reflective device and making the light from the sun or moon do whacky and sometimes zany things, and Nuremberg had perfect conditions for this to occur. Sundogs and the phenomenon that often occurs with them were also seen with religious significance back in olden tymes.

Wikipedia gives an elaborate account describing the religious and political turmoil that may have caused onlookers to interpret this event in such an apocalyptic way, but this does not explain the phenomenon that sparked the account; I think that Johnson has probably got it right.
 
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feinman

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The Nuremberg account has been nicely explained as well, as a parhelia event. I've given my reasons as to why this explanation seems plausible.
Here's Frank Johnson's view of the matter.
https://web.archive.org/web/2013010...nsdebunked.com/nuremburg-ufo-battle-debunked/

Wikipedia gives an elaborate account describing the religious and political turmoil that may have caused onlookers to interpret this event in such an apocalyptic way, but this does not explain the phenomenon that sparked the account; I think that Johnson has probably got it right.
Except that according to the broadsheet:
"And when the conflict in and again out of the sun was most intense, they became fatigued to such an extent that they all, as said above, fell from the sun down upon the earth 'as if they all burned' and they then wasted away on the earth with immense smoke."
 

eburacum

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Except that according to the broadsheet:
"And when the conflict in and again out of the sun was most intense, they became fatigued to such an extent that they all, as said above, fell from the sun down upon the earth 'as if they all burned' and they then wasted away on the earth with immense smoke."
Note how the description centres nicely around the Sun, as any parhelion display should. The smoke is presumably ice crystal haze in the upper atmosphere.
 

eburacum

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The last part of the Nuremburg account seems to describe a crepuscular/anticrepuscular ray;
After such events something like a black spear, the shaft from sunrise [east] and the head towards sundawn [west], has been seen with big thickness and length.
This whole event seems to be little short of a textbook account of various different kinds of atmospheric optics.
 

feinman

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The last part of the Nuremburg account seems to describe a crepuscular/anticrepuscular ray;
After such events something like a black spear, the shaft from sunrise [east] and the head towards sundawn [west], has been seen with big thickness and length.
This whole event seems to be little short of a textbook account of various different kinds of atmospheric optics.
In the broadsheet some of the objects are shown burning on the ground with black smoke, as described. The black spearhead seen was only one, not a series as would be expected, and it was possibly seen from the side, unlike crespuscular rays. Also, there was only one not a number of them, and I would think the light beams would be more interesting than a section of black cloud..
 

eburacum

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I doubt very much that the woodcut was made by a witness; instead it was made by an artist from the verbal descriptions, so is likely to be inaccurate. However the drawing shows features that are characteristic of perisolar parhelia.
 

feinman

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I doubt very much that the woodcut was made by a witness; instead it was made by an artist from the verbal descriptions, so is likely to be inaccurate. However the drawing shows features that are characteristic of perisolar parhelia.
Right, it's hard to know if the artist was a witness or not..
 
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