Ghosts, Voices and individuals with certain mental illnesses

[OldTimeRadio]

the current paradyme in mental health has schizophrenia as a biochemical disorder....

But the anxiety neuroses such as OCD, SAD and GAD are ALSO currently considered to be biochemical disorders.

 

[ChristopherK2]

It took me six months to figure this out

Many thanks

TA provides one model explaining things

The problem with Grand Unifying Theories in psychiatry or psychology is that they don't work in practice. While, as many contributers have pointed out, causality is attributed to brain chemistry many psychiatrists balance this with psychodynamic approaches.

If one works within a model and it blatently isn't working one just has to bale out and apply something else. In the end the therapy may become a pick n' mix but it's better to get a positive outcome for the punter than to be constricted by a particular school of thought.

 

[BouncingAyatolla]

The problem with Grand Unifying Theories in psychiatry or psychology is that they don't work in practice.

TA works in practice, which is why it is possible to completely cure e.g. alcoholics. This doesn't imply it's easy to become cured though, no, nor that there aren't ways in which the client can "resist", e.g. by failing to truly drop a Script or by playing a Game with the therapist that keeps them sick, that has more potency for him/her than the option of cure. All these things are described in TA itself.

A particular feature of it, as above, is that it has specific exposition of cases where there is a seeming cure, and the mechanism of that. Using the case of alcoholics again, it describes why AA meetings seem to work until someone stops going to meetings. i.e. there is a profound understanding of multi-layered "givens": real cure/false cure, real emotion/racket emotion and so on. I've only seen this depth of understanding otherwise in esoteric systems.

I'm not saying this is The One True Way(tm) however. It is a broad ranging model that applies to many things. Others may indeed prefer a broad set of smaller tools.

While, as many contributers have pointed out, causality is attributed to brain chemistry many psychiatrists balance this with psychodynamic approaches.

Yep, it's preferable to take a balanced approach methinks, whether as above that's a broad ranging model or a broad range of models.

As it happens, last night I listened to some audio about emotional intelligence. This was presented from a neurological standpoint, i.e. describing how "neural takeovers" can occur, e.g. the amygdala overpowers the thinking mind, say. What struck me was that this was a description of TA's shifting of which ego state is 'in executive', but from a neurological POV. Very interesting! It made me wonder whether from that standpoint the sense of self boundary is defined purely by the area of brain centres that are active?

Perhaps it is not so important to be hung up about whether "this is biochemical" or not then, as it's looking at two blades of a triple-edged sword?

If one works within a model and it blatently isn't working one just has to bale out and apply something else. In the end the therapy may become a pick n' mix but it's better to get a positive outcome for the punter than to be constricted by a particular school of thought.

Fair point.

As an aside I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has suggestions for other mainstream systems that have modeled or implied where the boundary of sense of self is and how it can change?

On that note, going back to the original post, how would you determine whether something you are experiencing originally resided inside your "normal" sense of self or originally resided outside of that?

 

[rynner2]

Canada bus killer Vince Weiguang Li 'believed victim was alien'

A man who beheaded a fellow bus passenger in Canada in 2008 has spoken out for the first time, saying he believed he was killing an alien.
In an interview with a schizophrenia society, Vince Weiguang Li said he had heard what he believed was "the voice of God".

Mr Li was found not guilty of murdering Tim McLean, 22, after being diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.
He has since been treated at a mental health centre near Winnipeg, Manitoba.

In the interview given to Chris Summerville, head of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, Chinese-born Mr Li said he had bought the knife used in the attack for protection "from the aliens".
He said he had been unaware at the time that he suffered from schizophrenia.

The attack took place in front of horrified passengers as the inter-city Greyhound bus travelled past Portage la Prairie, about 70km (40 miles) west of Winnipeg.
The driver, alerted by Mr McLean's screams, stopped the bus and fled with the passengers as Mr Li continued his attack.

"The voice told me that I was the third story of the Bible, that I was like the second coming of Jesus [and that] I was to save people from a space alien attack," he said, according to a transcript of the interview published by Canadian media.
"I was really scared. I remember cutting off his head. I believed he was an alien. The voices told me to kill him, that he would kill me or others. I do not believe this now."

He said he was "really sorry" for what he had done.
Asked what he would like to say to Mr McLean's mother and family, he said: "If I could talk to her directly I would do anything for their family. I would ask forgiveness, but I know it would be hard to accept."

Mr Li, who had been locked in the bus, was apprehended after a three-hour stand-off with police as he tried to leave by a window.
He was later heard in a pre-trial hearing to plead "please kill me".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18170463

 

[Loquaciousness]

Just picking up on a few points.

1. all definitions of mental illness have a cultural element to them. The DMSIV and ICD 10 which are used by professionals in their diagnosis contain a lot of elements that are very subjective, e.g. "observer discomfort", "deviation from social norms". Over the years, the number of disorders contained in both has grown, to such a point, that it seems we are almost all mentally ill. It is actually quite interesting to look at the DMSIV and the different disorders - something I do with my students when I am teaching about this topic. It generates a lot of discussion.
2. There is a major distinction in mental illness, psychosis and neurosis. Psychotic illnesses are defined by the sufferer basically not being in touch with "our" reality - interpret that how you will. An example is schizophrenia. It is now thought that schizophrenia has a biological basis, type 1 being caused by problems with neurotransmitters, specifically dopamine and noradrenaline, andnoradrenaline. Type 2 ( which is not treatable by drugs ) is thought to be organic in nature, and often associated with abnormal brain structures. Neurotic illnesses, are characterised by the fact the sufferer knows they are suffering and tend to be mood/anxiety related, e.g. depression.
3. A problem (still ) in diagnosis is that we still can't really tell the sane from the insane. A study from the 70's is really worth looking at - Rosenhan's "Being sane in insane placces", and also there was a recent BBC2 programme in which professionals tried to diagnose mental illness, and only got 2/5 right. The name escapes me now.
4. I have had a personal experience of the depression/ghost link. Last year my friend and her children died in tragic circumstances. Afterwards I suffered depression/anxiety and had some "ghosty" type experiences. I went to see the doctor, and he said it was a normal grief reaction - and as I was walking out the door he said "and anyway, how do you know there are no ghosts ?".

So upshot of my rambling is. I think some people really are mentally ill to such an extent that they and society needs protection. Some people are mentally ill, but can cope with life, and whether they receive treatment or not is up to them. Some people are probably just deviating from social norms, but are perceived as abnormal.

 

[Loquaciousness]

P.s. on the point of TA. It works in SOME cases, just like all the other treatments, including drugs, CBT, etc.

Doesn't mean it is correct in it's underlying constructs. Psychology as a subject, just like any other science, doesn't just have one main paradigm by which everyone works, it is a mixture of diverse approaches and perspectives. These will conflict, compliment each other or merely co-exist.

Another thought, sometimes treatment which seems to "work" is a. only the passage of time causing the resolving of the problem. b. an example of the Hawthorne effect.

 

[tonylovell]

I'm in the middle of being assessed for autism, ADD and borderline Personality disorder (they're trying to decide which it is!) and today, alone in the house, I heard the sound of breathing in the living room. It lasted on and off for almost quarter of an hour, and was clear as day. I was in no panic or fear just completely bemused. I approached the room and it stopped, then started after a while when i went away again. It sounded precisely like my youngest son does when he is breathing asleep on the sofa in that room.
I hasten to add I was alone in the house, sat next to my dog (I listened to the dog but it was breathing silently).

 

[GNC]

I'm in the middle of being assessed for autism, ADD and borderline Personality disorder (they're trying to decide which it is!) and today, alone in the house, I heard the sound of breathing in the living room. It lasted on and off for almost quarter of an hour, and was clear as day. I was in no panic or fear just completely bemused. I approached the room and it stopped, then started after a while when i went away again. It sounded precisely like my youngest son does when he is breathing asleep on the sofa in that room.
I hasten to add I was alone in the house, sat next to my dog (I listened to the dog but it was breathing silently).

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but it wasn't your own breathing you could hear, was it? Something to do with the acoustics of the place?

 

[tonylovell]

I did actually stop breathing in order to check that! No - wasn't me. It completely baffled me. All I can think is that it was some echo of my son in that room. But why?
I have made ghosts appear before, by thinking about them/being scared. Maybe it's just that. Just strange i wasn't scared, or thinking about my son.

 

[Dingo667]

Strange, the same thing happened to me when I was about 12 yrs old. I was home alone, when I heard heavy breathing. It wasn't a hallucination, it was actually there, in our flat. I felt my guts cramp with fear, got up from the sofa and followed the noise, talking to the 'person', like: "Who are you?" and such.
I got to the kitchen, where it was loudest. Human breathing, WTF, seriously? We lived in a really nice tower block, where we all knew each other. It was safe and yet there was a man breathing in our kitchen.
Cut a long story short, it came from the radiator. The bloomin' radiator was making human breathing noises. The bas**rd!
I never felt so relieved.
What would have happen if I had legged it and would never have found out?
I would have sworn someone had been breathing in our kitchen.