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Golden Ratio & Belly Buttons / Navels

CodenameThrow

Gone But Not Forgotten
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Howdy,

OK, art students, biologists, fern and shell collectors, people who've read the Da Vinci code, architects, car enthusiasts with a penchant for the BMW Z8 roadster and anyone who's browsed a popular science mag over the last ten years/watched the news/read a book on art history/studied religion or the human body - you may well be aware of a number called the Golden Ratio, or the Divine Proportion, or, as it appears on a calculator, 1.618. For those of you who aren't aware of it, it's derived from the Fibonacci sequence (0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21... adding the previous two integers together to get the next) as the ratio between the numbers and, seemingly miraculously, pops up in nature quite a lot. It's the ratio of the upper arm to the forearm and hand in the human body, the ration of finger joint to finger joint, head to toe and head to navel, and so on. It's present in the spirals of a shell, the spiral of a sunflower's seeds, the bodily structure of a dolphin, George Clooney's face and, it seems, anywhere where there's curvature and beauty in nature at all. A thorough overview (if a little bit "woo woo" in tone) can be found here.

Now, personally, I've always considered the golden ratio to be a nice little quirk of mathematics and biology which isn't always 100% accurate but is close enough to be indicative of an evolutionary slide towards a certain degree of curvature in nature which is more efficient than others. Holding it up as proof of intelligent design seems a little wrong-headed, and it's obvious that things which supposedly display the Golden Ratio don't always have 1.618 as an exact proportion - close enough, however, is good enough in a lot of instances.

The thing which has been puzzling me recently in relation to this is the presence of the bellybutton in the analysis of the Golden Ratio and the human body. It seems plausible that a certain, most efficient ratio would develop where the human body was to curve and move, but we don't curve and move around our bellybutons. More often than not, people who analyse the body and pull out proportions of 1.618 state that it's to do with the fact that navel and elbows are on the same horizontal level, but I've just been to check this out in the mirror and my elbows are a good two inches above my bellybutton (and no, I don't have Tyrannosaurus Rex arms or a big drooping tummy, I think I'm in reasonable proportion). However, look at any examination of where the human form shows a ratio of 1.618 and the position of the navel in relation to the head and the feet is one of the first things to be mentioned.

Why is this? Bear in mind that the navel is just the point at which the umbilical cord attaches to the human body, independent of the skeletal structure. Do we like to think that, during gestation, the whole human form is constructed in perfect formation around the point from which it starts to appear? Or, when people are analysing this, do they like to tie the harmony of the skeleton back to the more traditionally more "beautiful" aspects of life such as birth, motherhood, etc? Perhaps the bellybutton has appeared there, ascribing to the Golden Ratio as it does, so as to be more aesthetically pleasing and, well, attractive. Or perhaps it's all a load of old tosh and an example of people crowbarring maths into nature in much the same way as a small child will attempt to ram a square peg into a dog's ear.

You decide!
 
Throw said:
The thing which has been puzzling me recently in relation to this is the presence of the bellybutton in the analysis of the Golden Ratio and the human body. It seems plausible that a certain, most efficient ratio would develop where the human body was to curve and move, but we don't curve and move around our bellybutons. More often than not, people who analyse the body and pull out proportions of 1.618 state that it's to do with the fact that navel and elbows are on the same horizontal level, but I've just been to check this out in the mirror and my elbows are a good two inches above my bellybutton (and no, I don't have Tyrannosaurus Rex arms or a big drooping tummy, I think I'm in reasonable proportion). However, look at any examination of where the human form shows a ratio of 1.618 and the position of the navel in relation to the head and the feet is one of the first things to be mentioned.

It doesn't only occur in nature though. Architects and so on can use it to great effect as well. Apparently Charles Rennie Macintosh did, which is why his buildings are so beautiful. Therefore linear points on the human body might be expected to have the ratio as well as curving points.

If yours doesn't , it is probably simply because you are not "beautiful" enough in the technical sense (you know you're gorgeous really;))
 
Architects, artists and car designers have all used it to fine effect (see the extremely beautiful and organic curves of the Z8 roadster mentioned above) and quite flamboyantly in some cases (Gaudi's Barcelona buildings) but if they don't measure it specifically from nature, they quite often probably do it unwittingly as it is a curve very pleasing to the human eye. But people weren't designed by architects - does the navel really fit into the Golden Ratio, and if so why, or has it been shoehorned in by credulous mathematicians looking for mystery where there is none, or is it a load of rubbish? And am I the only person here whose navel isn't in line with their elbows? :eek:
 
Throw said:
Architects, artists and car designers have all used it to fine effect (see the extremely beautiful and organic curves of the Z8 roadster mentioned above) and quite flamboyantly in some cases (Gaudi's Barcelona buildings) but if they don't measure it specifically from nature, they quite often probably do it unwittingly as it is a curve very pleasing to the human eye. But people weren't designed by architects - does the navel really fit into the Golden Ratio, and if so why, or has it been shoehorned in by credulous mathematicians looking for mystery where there is none, or is it a load of rubbish? And am I the only person here whose navel isn't in line with their elbows? :eek:
But with regards to human beauty, some people are beautiful and some are not. The site uses George Clooney as an example, not some real ugly person. You'd probably find that if you look at some one and really notice that their body looks perfectly proportioned, then THEIR navel fits into the golden ratio.

My navel isn't level with my elbows either, but then I could hardly be regarded as perfectly proportioned. I am short and stocky. Some people may find that pleasing but I am never going to end up on the front cover of Vogue!:p
 
Yes but WHY does the navel on a person, beautiful or otherwise, fit into the Golden Ratio?
 
Perhaps because it is simply a defining and obvious point on the human body. Y
You probably wouldn't expect to find a golden ratio in, say, the distance between where the calf muscle begins and 2/3rds of the way up the thigh. These are not defining points, you don't really notice them. Whereas stuff like joints, facial features etc are.
 
But can such things be exact on the human body, which is subject to so many variations?

When I did A level art, I can remember, when studying the proportions of the body, that (as a general rule) the elbows would bend on a level with the waist and the bellybutton comes in at around (or just below waist level) . . .

Carole, who has been walking around with her elbows stuck into her waist to see if she's in proportion . . .
 
Well, an experiment with a tape measure has shown that my waist gives a ratio of 1.6 and my belly button 1.649.

So on average, I'm not really that much of a minger after all.;)

But it does seem a bit daft, you'd have to be very accurate with the tape measure I reckon.

Is anyone else here willing to get the tape measure out? Does anyone fit the golden ratio?
 
Throw said:
Or perhaps it's all a load of old tosh and an example of people crowbarring maths into nature in much the same way as a small child will attempt to ram a square peg into a dog's ear.

I'd go with this explanation.
 
Elbows about 1 " higher than bellybutton *hides under brown canvas sack for rest of life*
 
Originally posted by carole


Carole, who has been walking around with her elbows stuck into her waist to see if she's in proportion . . .


Jees Carole, I was doing the same, we must look like an add for chicken tonight.:D
 
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