Green Children Of Woolpit (And Maybe Spain)

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

I'm watching Ancient X-Files (NatGeo show from 10 years ago or so...) and watching the episode on the green children, has no one located either of them on any census lists or church binns? Not a marriage or children or a grave? They were baptised, there must be record of that?

 

[Frideswide]

I'm watching Ancient X-Files (NatGeo show from 10 years ago or so...) and watching the episode on the green children, has no one located either of them on any census lists or church binns? Not a marriage or children or a grave? They were baptised, there must be record of that?

Very patchy survival. Also, no reason the date, name, sometimes sponsor record would be identifiable.

 

[Kondoru]

Encounter in the Chemist today.

Young man dithering over athletes foot treatment.

"Oh, but not Potassium Permanganate...it will dye your feet brown" I say.

(I got the impression the chemist doesnt sell that stuff anymore; certainly not for that condition).

This is a fungi...as is ringworm.

Is there a fungi/algae that lives on the skin, causing discolouration??

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

Very patchy survival. Also, no reason the date, name, sometimes sponsor record would be identifiable.

I wonder if anyone has ever bothered to look?

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

Encounter in the Chemist today.

Young man dithering over athletes foot treatment.

"Oh, but not Potassium Permanganate...it will dye your feet brown" I say.

(I got the impression the chemist doesnt sell that stuff anymore; certainly not for that condition).

This is a fungi...as is ringworm.

Is there a fungi/algae that lives on the skin, causing discolouration??

I was curious, so I looked it up. In the US it's only available by prescription and one of it's listed uses is Athlete's Foot (also impetigo and weeping eczema sores) but I have to think there's better products to use, as this one has a tendency to cause burns and irritation to mucous membranes, even when diluted 10 to 1...

https://www.healthline.com/health/potassium-permanganate-uses

 

[Kondoru]

Am old fashioned remedy...probably not according to modern understanding.

 

[Kondoru]

Just listened to a very interesting podcast on the Green Children of Woolpit. Can't say I agree with all of it, but there were some theories and ideas from Duncan Lunan that I'd never heard discussed before. Worth a listen, in my opinion.

Those interested can get the podcast here.

Just listened to this.

Wild.

Complete tosh but well researched.

Is there such a thing?

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

I've been doing a bit more ruminating over this, and here's my current state of mind (eek)

I think the Flemish angle is complete crap. Flemish people were already living nearby; so if that were the case, the children's speech and clothing wouldn't be "unfamiliar" in the sense that while perhaps villagers didn't speak or otherwise interact with the Flems, the villagers would've probably seen them enough that they wouldn't be unfamiliar.

I haven't been able to find any reference as to how old the children were. Were they under 6? Under 10? Under 13? Seems to me a place to start would only happen with knowing the approximate ages and working backward.

 

[AnonyJ]

I'm watching Ancient X-Files (NatGeo show from 10 years ago or so...) and watching the episode on the green children, has no one located either of them on any census lists or church binns? Not a marriage or children or a grave? They were baptised, there must be record of that?

The story is almost 1000 years old so no written records of ordinary working people (even if they were green).

Church records started to be kept somewhat regularly from 1660s onwards, the first fairly reliable UK-wide census was 1841 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_the_United_Kingdom ; The same for regular burials of non-notables, ie., 99% of the population.

Hence archaeologists often come across previously unknown Mediaeval or Anglo-Saxon (or even earlier) burial grounds or buildings.

 

[marhawkman]

Just listened to this.

Wild.

Complete tosh but well researched.

Is there such a thing?

That's similar to my thoughts. He brought up some things I didn't know since many people researching this don't have that level of understanding of Latin. I suspect he may have chosen this case because he felt it fit this worldview.

I do have to question his take of the exact meanings of specific phrases. He chose to interpret one of the accounts as if Agnes personally dictated it.... I suspect that's not the case. Nothing I read in the translated version I've seen suggested that either source had direct information. Which reduces the value of deep analysis of word choices.

The notes of Agnes Barr's children are interesting since she did marry into upper class people, so that makes sense.

I've been doing a bit more ruminating over this, and here's my current state of mind (eek)

I think the Flemish angle is complete crap. Flemish people were already living nearby; so if that were the case, the children's speech and clothing wouldn't be "unfamiliar" in the sense that while perhaps villagers didn't speak or otherwise interact with the Flems, the villagers would've probably seen them enough that they wouldn't be unfamiliar.

I haven't been able to find any reference as to how old the children were. Were they under 6? Under 10? Under 13? Seems to me a place to start would only happen with knowing the approximate ages and working backward.

MY reason to support the Flemish angle is that the story makes very simple, but ultimately weak claims here. When the kids were starving and first arrived, the locals couldn't understand them. That stopped being a problem shortly after. It makes no other claims about language. So it's a real possibility that the language barrier was not very strong.

 

[brownmane]

Also known as 'The Green Children of Woolpit'. Some on-line info here:

http://anomalyinfo.com/articles/sa00022.shtml

Here is a direct link to the article mentioned so that others don't have to guess how to find the story:

http://anomalyinfo.com/Stories/11351154-green-children-woolpit

Actually doing a "green children" search on the site does also have some of the other story versions mentioned in this thread.

 

[marhawkman]

Here is a direct link to the article mentioned so that others don't have to guess how to find the story:

http://anomalyinfo.com/Stories/11351154-green-children-woolpit

Actually doing a "green children" search on the site does also have some of the other story versions mentioned in this thread.

I found these sub-pages particularly enlightening:
http://anomalyinfo.com/Stories/extra-william-newburghs-account-green-children
http://anomalyinfo.com/Stories/extra-ralph-coggeshalls-account-green-children

Actually reading a translation of the closest thing to original accounts that exists does a lot to help understand it.

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

Here is a direct link to the article mentioned so that others don't have to guess how to find the story:

http://anomalyinfo.com/Stories/11351154-green-children-woolpit

Actually doing a "green children" search on the site does also have some of the other story versions mentioned in this thread.

That was a great story, thanks. It occurred to me that the children wouldn't eat until they were given beans. I wonder if that's because the beans were the only green food offered to them and they were afraid of things that weren't green? No way to know, but that's the leap my brain made.

Edit: For some reason, this didn't post yesterday.....minor strangeness?

 

[Mythopoeika]

That was a great story, thanks. It occurred to me that the children wouldn't eat until they were given beans. I wonder if that's because the beans were the only green food offered to them and they were afraid of things that weren't green? No way to know, but that's the leap my brain made.

Edit: For some reason, this didn't post yesterday.....minor strangeness?

Eating only green food may have been what made them look green.

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

Eating only green food may have been what made them look green.

That was my thinking originally but I'm not sure if only eating green foods would make you green...I gotta doubt it anyway. But it also raises the question, if the land the children came from was always "in twilight/dusk" how did green foods grow? They have chlorophyll and need sunlight to make food...hmmmm

 

[Mythopoeika]

That was my thinking originally but I'm not sure if only eating green foods would make you green...I gotta doubt it anyway. But it also raises the question, if the land the children came from was always "in twilight/dusk" how did green foods grow? They have chlorophyll and need sunlight to make food...hmmmm

Severe malnutrition may also cause a green skin colouring - green jaundice - and their skin would have no melanin from sunlight. They'd also have very little vitamin D because of a poor diet.
Any edible plants that grow in near-darkness would be an extremely poor food source, lacking in many nutrients.

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

Re-read the story from the link above and just realized what was tickling my memory pods...the bells. One of The Strange Sessions episodes had stories about woodlands/forests, specifically creepy woodlands/forests (might've been this episode I think https://thestrangesessions.podbean.com/e/season-6-episode-17-strange-woods-stories/ (or one of the listener stories eps in season 6 or 7) and there were 2 stories in there of people lost in the woods who heard church bells. I'd love to look more into it, but just typing "hearing bells in the woods" brings up a lot of nutters...

 

[kesavaross]

That was my thinking originally but I'm not sure if only eating green foods would make you green...I gotta doubt it anyway. But it also raises the question, if the land the children came from was always "in twilight/dusk" how did green foods grow? They have chlorophyll and need sunlight to make food...hmmmm

Part of my job as a window cleaner is cleaning out gutters. Quite often a succulent plant can take root and grow along the gutter. Frequently there are also slugs that only eat the only food available, the plant. They end up coloured green as well. Maybe it was the same with the children. Eat only green food and end up with green skin? Maybe?

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

Part of my job as a window cleaner is cleaning out gutters. Quite often a succulent plant can take root and grow along the gutter. Frequently there are also slugs that only eat the only food available, the plant. They end up coloured green as well. Maybe it was the same with the children. Eat only green food and end up with green skin? Maybe?

I defer to your experience, and grass in shady areas is usually green as well (although not as green as grass in sunlight) but I have no idea if humans ate only green plants, if they'd turn green, seems to me it would take a whole lot to turn a human green?

 

[marhawkman]

I defer to your experience, and grass in shady areas is usually green as well (although not as green as grass in sunlight) but I have no idea if humans ate only green plants, if they'd turn green, seems to me it would take a whole lot to turn a human green?

Well, you need life-threatening malnutrition for that.

One thing that I wonder about this and is something often mentioned is the use of the word "cave". It's often been noted that the concept of cave that most think of.... doesn't exist as a natural terrain feature in this area. The ground has a deep muddy layer to it that prevents cave formation. So what was Agnes talking about? The perpetual twilight thing has a potential different explanation: forest canopy. If the kids lived in an area with perpetual shade from trees, then perhaps what she was actually talking about were forest paths? did this region even have those back then? hmm....

Also I have to wonder, one thing we know beyond a doubt is that the two kids were probably suffering malnutrition. I wonder if they were in a mentally befuddled state as a result? Agnes makes the claim that they ended up in Woolpit while walking around in a fugue state or something like that. I wonder if her account was muddied by simply not being able to accurately remember things due to having her state of mind being radically different?

 

[brownmane]

Looking into green skin pigmentation, I found this long winded explanation for green skin caused by copper dust:
https://epmonthly.com/article/green-skin-google-it/

It does still not address @marhawkman's comment about the children living in a cave, but if there was a cave, perhaps it had copper ore veins running through?

From William Newburgh's account of the story (link at post 72):

near this place are seen some very ancient cavities, called ‘Wolfpittes’, that is, in English, ‘Pits for wolves’, and which give their name to the adjacent village [Wulpet, a market town].

The "ancient cavities" is, perhaps a truer description than "caves" for where the children emerged.

Going further into the rabbit hole, I looked up copper toxicity. It is rare, but can happen and fatigue, stomach pain, nausea and vomiting, change in taste which can lead to decreased or no appetite can be symptoms.

While it is said that food was withheld from the children (which in itself would cause them to experience some difficulties), the effects of copper toxicity might also cause them to not eat.

And going further down the hole, green beans are legumes, and, legumes are nutritional good source of copper.

All info about copper in body from here:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/copper-toxicity#copper-in-water

Then the reference to St. Martin. There is Tours, France which does have an Abbey of St. Martin. It could be possible that the children identified themselves with their local church. It would also explain the different language they spoke. While I question that French was an unknown language, it may have been a local dialect, and perhaps Woolpit was isolated enough from the world that they were not familiar with the language

So my question or pondering for this story is not the veracity of it, but wondering if there is some folklore or fairytale that this might be mirroring? My thoughts may be way off base (most likely), but now I see several links to St. Martin and greenish skin pigmentation (possible copper mines) in the story.

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

So my question or pondering for this story is not the veracity of it, but wondering if there is some folklore or fairytale that this might be mirroring? My thoughts may be way off base (most likely), but now I see several links to St. Martin and greenish skin pigmentation (possible copper mines) in the story.

That's a point for us to consider, were there copper mines in the area? I did a half-assed search and could only find records of iron mines but I just did a drive by search and didn't come up with anything in the first 15 seconds....

Looking into green skin pigmentation, I found this long winded explanation for green skin caused by copper dust:

Enjoyed that, a very interesting case. It doesn't appear that ingesting copper causes green skin, although it does cause a lot of other issues

https://butternutrition.com/signs-copper-overload/
https://www.healthline.com/health/copper-toxicity

So while a likely culprit, I don't think copper caused the skin to turn green unless they were rolling in a big pile of copper dust? You never know...

 

[brownmane]

So while a likely culprit, I don't think copper caused the skin to turn green unless they were rolling in a big pile of copper dust? You never know...

That was my point, actually, was the physical contact with copper dust. We don't know if they were entirely greenish, or had only greenish patches. I just started looking into copper toxicity to see if that might explain some of the other odd details such as not wanting to eat.

 

[marhawkman]

That was my point, actually, was the physical contact with copper dust. We don't know if they were entirely greenish, or had only greenish patches. I just started looking into copper toxicity to see if that might explain some of the other odd details such as not wanting to eat.

To the best of my understanding, It's not that they were unwilling to eat. It's that the food the locals gave them was rejected due to the children apparently not recognizing it as food. Again, it's a weird thing to need to distinguish, but I feel it's important to remember the kids DID want to eat... but had no idea what the locals were eating.

And yeah, AFAIK that region doesn't have copper mines.

Again, I don't think they actually lived in a cave. I think the mentions of "caves" are some sort of corruption of a description of dense woods. 'cause Agnes mentioned that she could SEE places with full sunlight from wherever she lived.

Also, I still think the nearby "Fornham St Martin" is the reason for the "St. Martin's Land" reference. it's close enough and something a child might describe as a "land" since it's not just a church, it's a municipal area. Of course this makes you question: "wouldn't the locals know that?" Well, this isn't a part of the story that the locals questioned. It's just mentioned as where she was from. Does this mean that the locals actually didn't see it as weird at all?

Also, one of the accounts claims the kids were found around 4-5 miles from Bury St. Edmunds.... which is next door to Fornham St. Martin, and around 4-5 miles from St. Edmunds we find Woolpit.

here's a map.... of the area in modern times.

 

[Steven]

Just as in any era, some people were uneducated; some made a badge of pride of their ignorance; some were naive; some simply wanted to believe in 'wonders'; so, just like any other age, including our own. It's a short distance from ancient Romans believing that every comet signified doom or glory, to Early-Modern folks thinking that a group of chancers landing on a beach really are Jesus and his Disciples returned; or that young Princess Mary has arrived in their town after her cruel father Henry VIII had cast her out, hungry and penniless. People were and are Romantics, willingly or otherwise.

 

[brownmane]

To the best of my understanding, It's not that they were unwilling to eat.

Actually when I reread this translation of the story:

I found these sub-pages particularly enlightening:
http://anomalyinfo.com/Stories/extra-william-newburghs-account-green-children

It mentions that the children were not fed for several days, not that they refused to eat. Only when they were "nearly exhausted from hunger" was food offered. And the hesitation to eat the food when offered, would being near starvation affect their perception of what was happening or what things were? I'm not familiar with the effects of not eating for a while, but isn't one of the problems nausea when first trying to eat again?

 

[marhawkman]

Actually when I reread this translation of the story:

It mentions that the children were not fed for several days, not that they refused to eat. Only when they were "nearly exhausted from hunger" was food offered. And the hesitation to eat the food when offered, would being near starvation affect their perception of what was happening or what things were? I'm not familiar with the effects of not eating for a while, but isn't one of the problems nausea when first trying to eat again?

Yeah I'm not sure if that part is translated exactly right. When you compare Ralph's version with William's it phrases that differently.

Also William's version is very terse and it's not clear WHY the kids went days without eating.
" they were seized by the reapers, and conducted to the village, and many persons coming to see so novel a sight, they were kept some days without food. But, when they were nearly exhausted with hunger, and yet could relish no species of support which was offered to them, it happened, that some beans were brought in from the field, which they immediately seized with avidity"
It seems likely to me that William meant to say they had spent several days refusing to eat. He says in the same paragraph they'd refused all food prior to being given fava beans. But it's left vague as to when they did so.

Here's what Ralph said:
"When they were brought as curiosities to the house of a certain knight, Sir Richard de Calne, at Wikes, they wept bitterly. Bread and other victuals were set before them, but they would touch none of them, though they were tormented by great hunger, as the girl afterwards acknowledged. At length, when some beans just cut, with their stalks, were brought into the house, they made signs, with great avidity "
Yeah, Ralph doesn't lead by saying they spent days without eating. He leads with their odd behavior of refusing food and doesn't say how long they refused to eat. If you combine the two, it makes sense that William meant to say the kids refused to eat for days.

 

[marhawkman]

minor side note, i just tried looking up where "Wikes" (where Richard de Calne lived) is.... and failed.

 

[marhawkman]

edit: found this https://ukga.org/index.php?pageid=4166
Apparently, it's a variant spelling of the same name as Wick, Wix, and Wyckes. It's a parish name not a city or town apparently.

And..... If my current guess is right.... Wikes is actually Wix in Esssex, and around 25 miles away. Hmm well if we're rabbit holing, time to go to the center of the Earth!!!! Where did Agnes Barr live after marrying? "Married a man at Lenna"... hmm..... where the heck is that? I can't seem to find it. I get too many junk hits based on Lenna as a personal name.