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Has Anyone Seen Jack Frost? (Meteorological Phenomenon)

A

Anonymous

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To all:

Among the past few winters in West Caldwell, there have been a variety, some full of snow; some with almost no precipitation; some mild, for the most part; some with some brutal days.

But, during all of them, indeed, for at least the past twenty years, something has been all but absent, at least in Essex County, New Jersey. And that is Jack Frost!

Even though it wasn't present all the time, and even though Essex County is almost one big city, Jack Frost's handiwork was obvious on almost every day even near freezing, thirty or so years ago. Since about 1975, though, and, certainly, since the beginning of the Eighties, I think there can't have been more than a handful of days when a fully decorated window could be seen, even after the coldest of spells. There might be a slight tracery of hoarfrost in the corners of a pane, but not a full layering over with Jack's feathery artwork.

In fact, I'm not sure I can pinpoint more than three such times!

In at least twenty years!

On the http://www.chemtrailcentral.com site, I have suggested, a number of times, that water seems to be being replaced by a different chemical, for use in weather causation, perhaps a hydrocarbon-based volatile, with a reddish hue, and a significantly lower thermal inertia than water. If that were the case, it could explain the failure of Jack Frost's designs to show up. I would be interested in knowing if anyone else can remember, or illustrate, any time in the recent past, or present, when Jack Frost was up to his tricks.



Julian Penrod
 
Actually, now I think about it.....

last time I regularly saw bonny frost patterns was in the mid 70s...

things that have changed:

a) I now live in a warmer wetter place - Western Scotland instead of NE England

b) I now live in warmer houses.

Kath
 
Reason? Global warming, always global warming ...

The National Health service and capitalism did away with the Tooth Fairy (poor girl, with the squint and more kindness than sense) and central heating systems made Father Christmas start using lock picks and turned him into a burglar with fancy dress.

Woe! Woe! We've lost the innocence of the world! We put it down around here, somewhere ...
 
Apart from in Denton CID (;)), I haven't seen any for years, but then I live in a very mild part of a comparatively mild island anyway, that as Stormkhan pointed out is getting warmer all the time. I'd tend to go with global warming, certainly where I am, but I won't comment about chemtrails in New Jersey or anywhere else, for that matter. Not because I can't comment, but if I take a contrary position, Julian, you will see it yet again as a personal slight and we'll be subjected to paragraph upon paragraph of indignant prose (see some comments on the barriers between realities thread).

As I've said eslewhere, it's perfectly fine (and indeed the very raison d'etre of this board) to postulate ideas for discussion: however, to present a theory and then take exception when others have the temerity to dissent from it isn't what we're all about. So please treat any contributions to this thread in the manner in which they're intended, ie to test theories. I don't think any members, myself included, wish to indulge in yet another protracted discussion of semantics.

Does this sound fair to everyone?
 
Central heating, double glazing, insulation and global warming.

I think that covers just about all the bases :)
 
I lived with my family in several houses throughout the 1980s where you'd often see the effects of frost on the windows during cold spells. This was out in south-west England, so perhaps the ambient air temperature is different than in towns and cities, and thus perhaps more condusive to the forming of frost. The windows were of the unglazed variety, and the houses pretty much lacked central heating. In fact, when I started at polytechnic in 1991, I was suprised not to see the frost on the windows when I first lived in halls of residence - but that was the first time I'd every lived anywhere with central heating and double-glazing. But I've no doubt it all still goes on, but you'd have to be out in the sticks a bit more to see it, and be looking at older houses.
 
I've not seen full frosting of windows since the early 80s, but then I've usually stayed in places with double-glazing and/or heating.

Some digs I had in Norfolk were cold and in the winter of 1979-80 I woke up to find not only fully frozen windows, but frost on my alarm clock....:(
 
In Roman times there were well estalished and productive vinyards near Carlisle. About the itme the Romans left Britain, so did the weather, with winters getting colder and longer to a peak in the 1600-1700s. Since then, with blips (1946 and 1963 for instance, not to mention 1971-1974) things have been getting warmer.


Were the Cumbrian vinyards caused by Roman global warming?
 
IIRC, in the Bronze Age, the UK was even warmer. I think the average temperature peaks and troughs over time. How much effect global warming has right now is probably anyone's guess. It could, however, be adding to a natural global temperature swing towards being warmer.
 
We have plenty of frost here, but when I find it on the windows or around doors I know that haven't been closed properly. We have windows that can open from above or below, so the lock in center is what holds them closed. With the lock undone, they may slip a little, and the cold air seeping in through the crack causes the frost.

I believe global warming is real, but I would definitely say improvements in heating, insulation, and double glazed windows are keeping my windows clear.
 
I have suggested, a number of times, that water seems to be being replaced by a different chemical, for use in weather causation, perhaps a hydrocarbon-based volatile, with a reddish hue, and a significantly lower thermal inertia than water. If that were the case, it could explain the failure of Jack Frost's designs to show up. I would be interested in knowing if anyone else can remember, or illustrate, any time in the recent past, or present, when Jack Frost was up to his tricks.
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Hmm... a hydrocarbon-based liquid would be an alcohol of some kind... methanol (surgical spirit) usually has red dye added to it... adding alcohol (or pretty much anything else) lowers water's freezing point... it's the chemtrail planes' blind drunk pilots throwing their bottles overboard! QED

Or it could be the increase in double glazing and central heating (which contributes to climate change) :D

Jane.
 
So is this whole 'where's Jack Frost gone?' some sort of tie-in to supposed 'chemtrails' and climate control?
 
"If that were the case, it could explain the failure of Jack Frost's designs to show up. "

No it wouldn't - not unless you dispaced an awful lot of the atmospheric moisture. And judging by the rain, that hasn't happened.:)
 
Its more likely you're trying to raise the average atmosperic temperature by the introduction of long wave IR opaque hydrocarbons at a high altitude (thus reducing the albedo at that wave length) rather than trying to displace water.

Just IMHO
 
Double Glazing..but my Dads house has not it. one cold morning Ill run down and check for you.
 
It was around when I was a kid but haven't seen it on windows recently- I live in the same part of the country but now have double glazing and central heating. I do get huge jack frost swirls of ice on the flat roof of the extension at the back of the house so he is still at it, albeit on more appreciative surfaces!
 
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My money's on the combination of double glazing and central heating. If it were chemtrails then they seem to be pretty specific as my car windshield seems to regularly attract frost. (Could be the principle of maximal embuggerance. You still have to scrape car windscreens, but you don't get pretty frost on the windows of your home. ;) )
 
comments on reactions to my post

To all:

To maintain the flow of discussion on this matter, I should mention that I have been in a number of older houses, since the '70's, where there wasn't anything like double glazing or central heating, and still not seen ice traceries on windows. But, for that matter, there should be any number of windows, in a normal home, that wouldn’t be double glazed. Attic windows, for example, are often left as single panes. There are those who might say that attics collect heat from the house, which can melt frost, but basement windows, too, are usually single pane types, and Jack Frost is not to be seen there, either. Palladian decorative windows, and windows in doors are rarely doubled, also, but do not show any sign of frost build-up. Too, for all that double glazing may be touted as holding in the heat, the outer of doubled windows is exposed to the outside air, and temperature! There’s nothing, it appears, that would keep outer panes in storm window casements, or double glazed windows, from developing frost designs! The air between panes may insulate the inside, but only partly! It’s the second pane that keeps the insulating air from entering the home. But the outside pane can still get quite cold!

More than that, should not such things as patio furniture with glass tops, or exterior hot house windows, or windows on potting sheds, or garage doors, or deserted houses not show some sign of Jack Frost's touch? Yet, I've seen no indication of it there, either, for some time.

Fortis, fairly regularly, an evident “skeptic” of my assertions, alludes to frost developing on their car windshield. Windshields do have qualities that at least those trying to explain Jack Frost’s disappearance without invoking chemtrails seem to be drawn to. Namely, they are single panes, and are part of something that, generally, does not have internal heat. And, true, frost can be seen to build up on car windshields. But not Jack Frost designs! In general, what collects on windshields is solid, non-patterned layers of ice, but not the feathery, branching, curving patterns attributed to Jack! If you look, too, this generally seems to form on the front windshield, that will be angled slightly backward, but nowhere near as much on side windows, standing straight up, like house windows!

Also, better heating and insulated windows were around in the Fifties, and Jack Frost still seems to have put in an appearance, then!

In fact, “explanations” founded on insulating windows and quality of heating do not seem to really answer the question!

Among other things, it even seems like “double glazing”, storm windows and central heating are being relied upon as convenient “dodges” in “explaining” the absence of Jack Frost’s signature. “Skeptics” would depict the modern techniques of insulation as being utilized for the comfort of consumers, as soon as they were invented. But the technology for “double glazing” and storm windows was available even in the late Nineteenth century! If they were such a step forward, they would have been utilized then. Yet they weren’t! Which even suggests that the introduction of specialty windows and heating systems may have been intended just to “explain away” the disappearance of Jack Frost designs! There seem to have been those who knew they would stop occurring, and they wanted to provide something that could be invoked to avoid providing the real reason for their disappearance!

And, if there are those who want to try to “disprove” my statements by claiming there to have been rudimentary storm window systems in use for a century, they will have to explain why Jack Frost was visible before during the past century!

As well as why Jack Frost patterns could be seen as late as the Fifties, when both storm windows and central heating was being used!

Opposing the evident reality, and implications, of Jack Frost’s absence seems only a display of disingenuousness. But, then, it would seem only one aspect of an overall sense of contempt for trying to reveal unscrupulousness with respect to the planet’s weather!

I've referred, a number of times, to a genuine animosity shown any statements I make about chemtrails, in the Fortean Times Message Board, and, each time, what I allude to are dismissed as "harmless jocularity", "well-meaning ribbing" or "people speaking their opinion". Any characterizations I have made to their being personal attacks have been sidelined, in attempts at assassination of my character.

Now, in response to my question about whether anyone has seen any of Jack Frost's designs in the past twenty years or so, JerryB adds: "So is this whole 'where's Jack Frost gone?' some sort of tie-in to supposed 'chemtrails' and climate control?"

To be sure, I mentioned a theory I have been developing, that water seems to be being "squeezed out" of the atmosphere, and being replaced by some volatile, that acts more readily than water, more strongly, and under more conditions, to produce weather patterns. "Land hurricanes"; water precipitating out on relatively warm surfaces, even in hot weather; odd colored clouds; even the apparent recent spate of "aggressive icicle formation", even to their beginning to form from the ground up, are all indications of the legitimacy of my suggestion, and are not illusory. And I did mention it on the http://www.chemtrailcentral.com site. But why the suggestion of subterfuge?

If meteorological changes occur, something that could give rise to those events, likely, is involved! And those who may not have any familiarity with alternate sites, suggesting plausible models of weather change may be tempted to just give up even thinking about it. And, if I wanted to go into chemtrails and weather manipulation, I could have and would have. I was merely using that as an addendum - and possible explanation - for a phenomenon that truly seems to be occurring!

It could be nice to see something other than lack of hospitality and manners, when bringing up the subject of chemtrails on the Fortean Times site. Unfortunately, it looks like it would be amazing, too!

I did not arrange the disappearance of Jack Frost, just to have a soap box rostrum for speaking about chemtrails! I was pointing out an obvious occurrence in the world, and adding in material that may play a part. In fact, JerryB's reaction is very much like that of someone who knows that chemtrails are being used to alter the earth's weather, and is very much annoyed at the fact that I am finding so much evidence of it!

I have repeatedly been accused of seeing ill motive, where there is none.

Suggesting ill motive in the actions of someone without such motive, and who, in fact, has not given any sign of ill motive, is true mean-heartedness!



Julian Penrod
 
Re: comments on reactions to my post

julianpenrod said:
Among other things, it even seems like “double glazing”, storm windows and central heating are being relied upon as convenient “dodges” in “explaining” the absence of Jack Frost’s signature. “Skeptics” would depict the modern techniques of insulation as being utilized for the comfort of consumers, as soon as they were invented. But the technology for “double glazing” and storm windows was available even in the late Nineteenth century! If they were such a step forward, they would have been utilized then. Yet they weren’t! Which even suggests that the introduction of specialty windows and heating systems may have been intended just to “explain away” the disappearance of Jack Frost designs! There seem to have been those who knew they would stop occurring, and they wanted to provide something that could be invoked to avoid providing the real reason for their disappearance!
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So double glazing, rather than being manufactured and used as a superior form of insulation, was actually created in order to divert attention away from (possibly) premeditated climate change?
ibid
And, if there are those who want to try to “disprove” my statements by claiming there to have been rudimentary storm window systems in use for a century, they will have to explain why Jack Frost was visible before during the past century!
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Global warming?
ibid
As well as why Jack Frost patterns could be seen as late as the Fifties, when both storm windows and central heating was being used!
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Global warming, again?
ibid
Opposing the evident reality, and implications, of Jack Frost’s absence seems only a display of disingenuousness. But, then, it would seem only one aspect of an overall sense of contempt for trying to reveal unscrupulousness with respect to the planet’s weather!
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No-one's opposing the observation that "Jack Frost" patterns are rarer today than previously, but to then use it as "proof" of "unscrupulousness" re the weather, which implies that our climate is being altered with malicious intent is unsupportable in your present argument: personally, I'd go with the theory that our climate is indeed changing, but as a result of natural, poorly understood processes aided and abetted by human neglect (cf Kyoto).
ibid
Now, in response to my question about whether anyone has seen any of Jack Frost's designs in the past twenty years or so, JerryB adds: "So is this whole 'where's Jack Frost gone?' some sort of tie-in to supposed 'chemtrails' and climate control?"...I did not arrange the disappearance of Jack Frost, just to have a soap box rostrum for speaking about chemtrails! I was pointing out an obvious occurrence in the world, and adding in material that may play a part. In fact, JerryB's reaction is very much like that of someone who knows that chemtrails are being used to alter the earth's weather, and is very much annoyed at the fact that I am finding so much evidence of it!
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So Jerry's "in" on it now, then?
ibid
I have repeatedly been accused of seeing ill motive, where there is none....Suggesting ill motive in the actions of someone without such motive, and who, in fact, has not given any sign of ill motive, is true mean-heartedness!
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Somewhat at odds with your frequent displays of umbrage, taken when anyone has the temerity to disagree. As I stated earlier in this thread, I am not going to be drawn into the chemtrail discussion. I personally believe that the absence of frost patterns is due to global warming - however, I do not take it as a personal affront to my integrity when you assert that chemtrails are responsible.

Perhaps you may find it beneficial to adopt a similar attitude.
 
With respect, Julian, trying to use the absence of frost patterning on windows as "evidence" of chemical additives by some unspecified, secret, presumably government organisation to change weather patterns is incredibly tenuous indeed. If you consider the amount of standing water and water vapour on planet Earth, such additives would be insignificant to the point of non-existence. Unless you favour the homeopathic theory of poisons being effective in molecular dosage.

The atmosphere is getting warmer - this is now a recognised scientific fact (unfortunately belatedly). Only in areas where the temperature regularly waivers around 0 - -1 degrees C would you get frost. As far as my elementary chemistry recalls, frost is atmospheric water vapour captured by microscopically uneven surfaces and frozen by cold air. If those surfaces are warmer than ambient external air, then the water cannot freeze. If the air becomes too cold then the water vapour becomes frozen into snow. If the air is relatively dry then you don't get frost, freezing point or no. Take into account that modern surfaces, including glass, has changed along with the construction and science industry and then you realise that old Jack Frost had a ball in olden days but now has to work hard to get the right conditions to display his avant garde artwork!
 
Hate to disrupt a good theory with anecedote, but last year, before I ripped the shed down, the shed windows regularly had ice fillegrees and curliques upon them (timber frame)... I think it is something to do with central heating, changes in draperies styles and window frame material. When I was a child inthe 70s, the windows just used to get a thick layer of transparent ice from the window over the steel frames, although my granmother's house, that had wooden sash windows used to get the ice crystal tracery on the glass....

So two three datums have moved: -

1 - We don't tend to have the really heavy drapery to keep the cold out

2- window frame materials have changed

3 - Central heating is now common place
 
Stormkhan said:
As far as my elementary chemistry recalls, frost is atmospheric water vapour captured by microscopically uneven surfaces and frozen by cold air.
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Yes, I was just thinking something similar, without the scientific knowledge of course.

We have pretty frost patterns on the garage side door window. This window is at face level and it's the one we use to exit and enter the garage from the house. Perhaps the window gets moisture from our breath that cannot evaporate quickly enough because of the cold. Take that with the fact that the garage is only slightly warmer inside than outside. Just warm enough to cause frost. Add one more ingredient: I didn't wash the garage windows last year. :eek: ahem, I would say it has the necessary uneven surface.

I'm not saying that chemtrails don't have some affects when they are being used. Some things that may have changed since the fifties is the energy used for heating and the amount of moisture in the house from our activities. When we're burning cleaner fuel, there is less dirt creating that necessary uneven surface on the window. The first house I bought still had dark marks on the walls over the heating vents from older days. As far as human activity, I can only wonder if closed clothes washers, lack of someone home for most of the day, fewer people living in a house thanks to birth control, etc. These might account for less overall moisture in the modern home.
 
Re: comments on reactions to my post

julianpenrod said:
I did not arrange the disappearance of Jack Frost, just to have a soap box rostrum for speaking about chemtrails! I was pointing out an obvious occurrence in the world, and adding in material that may play a part. In fact, JerryB's reaction is very much like that of someone who knows that chemtrails are being used to alter the earth's weather, and is very much annoyed at the fact that I am finding so much evidence of it!
Click to expand...

Well, to me you seemed to be saying that that was some sort of causal link with chemtrails (i.e. as part of your original post, you gave a link to a chemtrail site). If you weren't, then mea culpa.

If I react in such a way to stories and theories about chemtrails, it's certainly not because I'm trying to detract attention from the 'evidence'. Far from it. We've already discussed chemtrails, and why theories about them are flawed, elsewhere on this board.

One thing always to remember on public forums is that, if you don't want your ideas to be questioned, don't post them. No-one is being mean-hearted for questioning anything you say - such questioning is a natural occurance of public debate.

Lastly, from people's reactions here, it seems that Jack Frost hasn't actually gone away that much. And, if he has, there seems to be a variety of circumstances that don't rely on weather-manipulation to explain them.
 
further responses to reactions

To all:

In addressing my assertions about the disappearance of Jack Frost, Timble, Tulip Tree and Fortis refer to frost building up, in some cases, but not Jack Frost designs. In fact, the delicate traceries of Jack Frost are not to be seen under a wide variety of situations, from car windows to garage windows to door windows to windows in deserted houses.

In fact, I had a build-up of frost on a window in my house. The side door to our house is in a small passageway, between the kitchen and the living room. This door has several small panes of glass set in it. The night of January 15, when temperatures dropped to 30 degrees below zero Fahrenheit, these formed frost on them. Not inside, incidentally, where water from cooking and breath was to be found, but on the outside. A picture of this frost is included. This was just a sheet of crystals, without any overall design. Incidentally, there is a window right inside the kitchen, closer to where any steam from cooking could be found, but, not only did not frost appear on the window on the outside, there wasn't even any condensation to be found on the inside! Not even several hours after cooking was done, and the window was cold to the touch.

Double glazing, storm window systems, central heating and global warming were the initial "explanations" provided, to be supplemented by lack of microscopic roughness, after my second post. When trying to "explain away" a phenomenon, it's surprising how the suggestions come crawling out of the woodwork. Only one causation is needed, in general, for phenomena; swamping the viewer with whole lists of possible causes both allows for tailoring a separate specious "model" to each situation - to cover the fact that a single universal cause is at work - while also intimidating those new to the matter with the sheer bulk of countering material.

And I do mean this in the sense of "explaining away" phenomena. I am continually accused of taking "umbrage" at those who "have the temerity" to oppose my views. To begin with, that is not necessarily a bad thing! If someone stood up in a mathematics symposium and challenged everyone, saying they don't really know that 2+2=4, because no one performed it infinitely many times, to test it - alternatively, if they challenged that no one really has performed random tossings of coins infinitely many times, to see that the results do equally partition themselves out - and kept on refusing to allow the symposium to continue, because that basic point had not been addressed, there do not seem many, among those who take aim at my character, who would condemn that person being expelled! Would that be "taking exception to someone having the temerity to voice their opinion"? Why is it wrong to take exception to palpably tainted or even calculatedly fallacious reasoning? And, in fact, contradictions to my assertions have not stood the test! Just note, for example, the fact that I spoke about Jack Frost, and several spoke up just talking about regular frost! And there is a definite thread of animosity toward anything I say that might refer, in any way, to chemtrails. I mentioned that the theory I had developed about water in the air being replaced by something else had been placed on the Chemtrail Central site, and immediately I was painted as trying to make this yet another venue for chemtrails! I referred to the Chemtrail Central site because that is where I placed the points that I made! And, yes, to have so prickly a reception - generally by the same individuals - whenever I even mention the word chemtrails in passing, does suggest a hidden agenda against what I have to say! I do not take exception to people "having the temerity" to speak their piece and disagree - as those seeking to engage in evident character assassination perpetually insist! - I point out when faulty reasoning or unsupported assertions are used. However, there seem those genuinely ill-disposed toward my having my say! They insult and act inhospitably; I point out glaring errors in reasoning, and, where they parallel the tactics of those seeking to obfuscate the truth, I indicate that!

And, yes, when the same faulty points are raised, every time, and unjustifiable evidence forwarded, every time, along with the continual attack on my character, I do say that it smells of collusion! Someone with well-meaning would be persuaded by the better evidence. Someone with manners wouldn't accuse another, pointing out ungracious behavior, of being "intolerant of others' opinions"! For that matter, someone looking for the truth wouldn't clasp the idea of "personal opinion" so tightly to their breast, because, in the end, even those who support "traditional science" acknowledge that the truth is not necessarily a matter of opinion! In the search for truth, even conventional science insists, there has to come a point where opinion is not coddled any longer, and the earnest have to accept what is demonstrated! You can say that the beginning of the search for truth may involve permitting many different ideas, but, eventually, those that do not suffice will have to be put aside! And, again, none of my statements have ever been legitimately countered.

Wembley, for example, says that water could not have been displaced from the atmosphere, because of enormous amounts of rain they supposedly had to endure. In fact, even if there were another component being added to the atmosphere, water would still evaporate and enter the air, but it would be more readily squeezed out. And, if Wembley experienced a lot of rain, that would fit in with water being forced out more than before! They will need something much stronger, to counter my assertions.

Stormkhan "argues" that any additive to the water in the atmosphere would be "insignificant to the point of non-existent", compared to "the amount of standing water and water vapor" on the planet. However small the amount of alien material may be to the standing water on the planet, it's being added to the water vapor in the air, and there, the contribution can be quite significant! I would be attacked for pointing out that invoking the mass of "standing water" is a derailing of discussion since only water vapor is being replaced, but there is no excuse for talking about the water in the oceans when the water in the air is the subject at hand! Too, is Stormkhan aware that a relatively miniscule fraction of salt added to a much larger portion of water can change its qualities entirely? And taking a "pot shot" at homeopathy, by insultingly bringing up the idea of single molecules affecting entire quantities of fluid, doesn't make Stormkhan's assertions any the more palatable!

And the absence of frost patterns is not the "evidence" for a government project to affect weather, as Stormkhan tries, insultingly, to depict. It is part of an entire collection of evidence, ranging from the "land hurricanes" of 2003; the condensing out of huge amounts of water on only mildly cool surfaces; the tendency of products such as sugar and salt to clump up in only a few hours after opening the box; and strange colored clouds. All of this was mentioned in the material on Chemtrail Central, as well as in other areas on the Fortean Times site. To represent this as the only evidence demonstrates a failure, in examining the material, that is reckless at best, and disingenuous, at worst! And, yes, it is apparent deliberate misrepresentations I refer to when I condemn the response to my mentioning chemtrails. Stu neville can accuse me of taking umbrage when someone "has the temerity to disagree with me", but these displays of wanton disregard for even borderline appropriate behavior speak for themselves!

And the "objections" to my assertions are no more palatable. For example, the "global warming" mantra has been repeated again and again, to "explain" the non-existence of Jack Frost patterns, these days. Even if the environment is warming, a fifteen degree below zero day is a fifteen degree below zero day! Even if the temperatures during the spring and summer may be five degrees higher than before, if the temperature of a particular day is fifteen degrees below zero, the temperature that day is fifteen degrees below zero! I have to be frank, constantly invoking "global warming" to "explain" Jack Frost's disappearance sounds reckless, if not deliberately obfuscating! And accusing me of not having tolerance for others' opinions doesn't change that! There is no legitimacy for pulling "global warming" into this! Just because those in positions of influence continually intone that sentiment, to "explain" something embarrassing to them, doesn't mean it applies everywhere, or even where they say it does!

Which raises another point, that, like storm window technology, "global warming" may have been introduced just to have an "excuse" for a plethora of abnormal circumstances! And, unfortunately, the gullible seem all too eager to accept what is said forcibly or archly enough! Storm windows are elementary enough that they could have been in use since the late 1800's! Why would they only have come into use in the later part of the Twentieth century? And "global warming" seems intended only to give quislings the ability to point at something as an all-purpose "dodge", whenever something anomalous is observed!

But the solid, basically undifferentiated build-up of frost on the side window in the picture, with no trace of filigree, legislates against considerations that it is the construction of the house that prevents Jack Frost.

More than that, though, about the last time I saw Jack Frost, I lived in a house with a large single pane picture window. And this was constructed right over a steam heat radiator! If heat is supposed to be responsible for the absence of Jack Frost designs, this disputes that notion utterly. That window frequently developed tracery designs! However, even there, there seems to have been some indication of a long-term diminishing of the phenomenon. In the early years there, around the early Seventies, Jack Frost would cover half the window or more. By the late Seventies, however, it seemed that no more than about a quarter of the window would be covered!

During the Eighties, I lived in an apartment in West Orange with single paned windows in the kitchen. Those seemed never to develop anything like Jack Frost, even though they would be exposed to humidity from cooking.

And, it has to be remembered, that, even if storm window technology allows inside windows not to cool down as much as the ones outside, the outer face of the outermost windows are still the temperature of the outside! They still get as low as the temperature of the external air! And, even if they managed to be slightly warmer, a 0 degree Fahrenheit window, on a minus 15 degree day would still develop frost!


So double glazing, central heating and global warming are not “explanations” for the disappearance of this phenomenon! Talking about storm windows, central heating, changes in drapery types, changes in glass surfaces and global warming sounds rather like the shills’ use of “scatter shot” techniques, throwing out innumerable alternative theories - if they had the background to understand the situation, they wouldn’t have to toss out so many! - hoping that at least one will stick, and relying on their “target audience” not realizing how unlikely it is that so many different causations, all producing the same result, would come together, at the same time, and also that their targets would have such short attention spans that they wouldn’t be interested in weeding through all the alternatives thrown at them!

And, as for Hugo Cornwall’s contemptuous remark: “Hate to disrupt a good theory with anecdote”, their reference to the appearance of Jack Frost designs on shed windows acts more to argue that the phenomenon is “conspicuous by its absence”. When something that was once ubiquitous becomes the exception, rather than the rule, it must be concluded that something is happening!



Julian Penrod
 
um... I;ve just been catching up and having read all the way through again....

Hugo's remark certainly didn't strike me as contemptuous.

Even going back having had the suggestion made to me I can't see it as that.


julianpenrod I find your posts very difficult to digest, especially in the small hours when only bits of me seem to be functioning... will re-read again when all of me is awake!

Kath:D
 
My friend and I drove her car through the car wash the other day. Within a minute or two after she drove out, there were little feathery curls of ice all over the passenger-side window.

As soon as I saw that, I thought of this thread. :p
 
stonedoggy said:
Hugo's remark certainly didn't strike me as contemptuous.
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It wasn't!
:rolleyes:

Anyway it is obviously pointless to try and argue.

Breezilla's post reminded me of when I was out rowing a few weeks ago. It was very cold and we were lucky the water didn't freeze because when my partner and I lifted our boat out of the water it froze! It then froze again after washing and hosing down, each time in pretty patterns rather than just a boring sheet of frost. Or does the "Jack Frost" term only apply to windows?
 
Re: further responses to reactions

julianpenrod said:
In addressing my assertions about the disappearance of Jack Frost, Timble, Tulip Tree and Fortis refer to frost building up, in some cases, but not Jack Frost designs.
Click to expand...
In my case, it was delicate and lovely traceries not a whole frosted window. I should have photographed it for you... maybe I did when I photographed the impending avalanche off the garage. I'll check.
 
our car park is the coldest bit of cornwall!..went out this moring and poured soem arm water over our car windows and wondered why it wasnt makeing much diference...yes it was iced over inside!... lovely snake/fern like fronds of frost.. the roof had inch long spikes, like punk hair.
 
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