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Hierarchy Of Verbal Logic

OK I have removed 4 posts either personal digs or comments in relation to them.

As with all discussion here no persoanl digs or we'll have words. And if you've got nothing to say then try not saying it - weird concept I know but......

Here is the remainder of TVQ's post:

The Virgin Queen said:
Mr. Ring you apear to not know the methords used to colect data around emotive rather than quantifiable objectivs. The grading of language you discuss wouldn't ever happen insted qualititive studies would be used where subjects are alowed to decide what is included in reserch and are alowed to simply talk (or other methords of allowing their voice to be heard.)

Your argument about how not using analitical syatems (feminism, queer theory, post-modernism ect) would not meen that the data was not presented uncorupted but that it was insted corupeted by normitive ideas such as the role of women, the nature of knowing, the meaning of gender and sexuality.

Thirdly post-modernism would knock out one of the problems you find with logic in that it would ask us to reconsider not only what we know but weither we can know.
 
Mal Function said:
I'd also like to enquire what people think of the ethics of asking questions on the FTMB when you're not really interested in the answers but trying out a little experiment to see what responses people give ?

I'm not certain that Mr. R.I.N.G. was intentionally doing that. However, I don't think it's unethical. We've both participated in some of those threads Mal Function, and I thought they were fun and productive. I had the impression that Mr. R.I.N.G. had an idea churning around in (his?) unconscious, and the types of responses to some of the threads (he?) started brought this idea about the "hierarchy of verbal logic" to the fore.
 
I have to say that I really didn`t understand exactly what Mr Ring was saying in his first post. I think I sort of got lost in the terminology of it all. I am not too incredibly clear on the exact meaning of "verbal logic"...

However, I will take my guess, assume that it is correct, and reply with my feelings - because it is something that I feel very strongly about.

I am going to make the assumption that "verbal logic" means "things that can be explained in words". Correct me if I`m wrong.

This is something that I find very pervasive in my life. I can speak both English and Japanese fluently. I find that there are countless ideas - feelings, concepts, etc - that simply cannot be expressed in one of the languages. Usually, I can say it in Japanese but NOT in English. This isn`t because of some deficiency in one of the languages (I believe that I am a pretty balanced bilingual).
What ends up happening is that even if I try my very best to explain it to someone in English they respond with "That doesn`t make sense.". But it DOES make perfect sense in Japanese. It`s that the idea doesn`t fit into the verbal logic of English. I often wonder if I would have been able to even think of it had I not known Japanese. It would have been completely outside of the realm of logic.

I can also say that I don`t think verbally. Unless I am plotting out what I am going to say word for word, or planning what I am going to write, no "words" flow through my brain. I have been asked a million times whether I thought in English or in Japanese - the answer is neither. In fact, I generally can`t recall whether something I read was in English or Japanese if it doesn`t have a specific concept that is native only to one or the other.

I really do believe that people`s thoughts are very strongly influenced by what they are able to express verbally. There are limits to language and if you are thinking "verbally", you can never go beyond them. It`s really a matter of not knowing what you`re missing - if you don`t know it exists, why would you want it?

-Tamyu
 
When i comented on how new constructs can alow us to think in new ways (I did make that post didn't I?) I was trying to say what, i think, you where trying to say too.

Another language or new words or constructs within a language alow you to think in new ways.

(hope it was't too technical :) )
 
Stories are a great way to introduce a new idea. Moreover, in the absence of the proper terminology people will often reference a movie, book, song (or somesuch) to describe what they're thinking and/or feeling. Take jima's "1984" post on this very thread for instance.

The structure and content of language(s) certainly both limits and enhances our ability to think, but I don't believe it is suppressing too much original thought. It's just annoying having to interact with individuals who can't seem to see past this perceived "hierarchy of verbal logic" is all.

(IMO)
 
This scenario came up when I was in 'Russian camp,' basically a boot-camp like school where we were forbidden to speak English at all. We were all parked on an academically green hillside, discussing (in broken Russian) our thought processes. One asked me, what do you think of when you hear the word 'dog'? I explained that it was not anything concrete, but rather a series of images. 'Cobaka' or 'Pyos' or 'dog' or 'bitch' all have slightly different image groups associated with them, but they all intermingle and 'breed' as it were, to form a general idea of 'dog.'

A floppy-eared pointer with red spots is the first that always comes to my mind, like those in old paintings.

I've argued this with a friend of mine who's a medievalist and believes language determines thought. I disagree, but I'm definitely no expert.

Anyway, drunk and loquacious.
 
GiantRobot said:
[

I've heard this 'internal dialogue as Gods' thing before, and I don't buy it - apart from the case of some schizophrenics. I don't see why the situation would change to the current mental one over time either - ie when would someone eventually realise it was them thinking, not a god speaking? I've heard it put forwards by some Marxists (although I don't know why they'd back this idea) and folks such as Erich Fromm (IIRC). In my humble opinion, it seems like an idea that really looks down on 'primative man'.

I've also heard that 'primative man' - even up to the time of the ancient Greeks - saw less colours than we do in the present. This is in Colin Wilson's "The Occult". I find that idea a bit daft too. It's also similar to the book Snowcrash.

Besides, not all people think in the same way. Some are very verbal, some are more fractal, some are very visual etc.

Today yes, but before literary, spoken society you wouldn't have had the choice by accident or desgn. I don't think I think in words very much at all, and I suspect many people don't . it's too SLOW - except as mentioned for reassurance in times of stress (Wish fulfiulment from the Gods?)

This fascinating though very speculative theory with probably very little real evidence comes from Julian Jaynes work from 1976
http://www.bizcharts.com/stoa_del_sol/c ... ious3.html

but I have seen it cited in connection with Roger Sperry's work on "Split brain" patients
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/en ... hsper.html

Why did the verbalisation initially seem like it was coming from outside of the self? Perhaps because the connections required for this new language and sense of the world, between the emerging "leftedness" was not always recognised by the older established non verbal right side.

in addition, as an aside , some child development theories imply the very young infant intially has no sense of self or ego but this ego sense coincides or is encouraged with the emergence of verbal language - whereas before, the theory goes, there was little or no distinction between the child's sense of self and the outside world but there is a accellerated increase of it's sense of "separateness" and sociality as it gets older. it needs to talk / write to relate to other separate beings iin a predomimately verbal society.


just a theory.
 
First, I want to clear up some confusion in the opening post (for my benefit, chiefly). If we read 'hierarchy' as 'hegemony' and 'verbal logic' as 'informal reasoning', it all clicks into place: informal reasoning has been privileged over other means of attributing value - but upon what grounds?

I believe it deserves to be privileged as it allows the development of concensus in a way that other, more personal, means don't. If I say 'if everything is art then everybody is an artist', the classic rules of argument allow you to examine and explore to far deeper strata of meaning than a emotional or aesthetic response will permit. Moreover, the examination can be public, and so shared.

Furthermore, those rules of engagement allow an exhaustive examination, even if the conclusion is 'it remains a matter of taste' - at least we now know that, and are moved to tolerate the diversity of opinion that will emerge.

Contempory logic is by no means monlithic; modus ponens is not what it used to be. It has become more subtle and querulous, but remains an unrivalled tool for the examining whether 'this' entails 'that' and possibly why.

This is not to proclaim 'logic über alles'. The Schoolmen identified the argumentum ad logicum as a fallacy; just because an argument satisfies the rules of logical decorum doesn't mean it is to be accepted without examination. The vitality of the relationship between terms does not mean the terms themselves are not important; attributing value to those terms is very often a matter of taste, intuition or faith.

For me, the argumentum ad logicum reminds us that there is no necessary conflict between the rational and the intuitive; rather, the two can work in perfect concert provided we acknowledge the line demarking the two. Dogmatism emerges when that line is erased.
 
Getting closer, still a bit puzzled.

"I guess I'm saying that verbal logic might be considered objective reality by many"

Surely not...

"I think it's possible that we can't know objective reality at all"

I don't see how you possibly could.

"But I would worry that this example of a paper would be heavily comprimised because it tried to squeeze this reality of nostalga, "

I don't understand what you mean by the 'reality of nostalgia'. It's a subjective concept; it has different meanings to different people. If you pin it down to one quantifiable meaning (as you will have to if you measure it), many will disagree.

Take an easier one (perhaps): temperature. You can measure absolute temperature fairly easily. Then you can add in factors for wind chill and humidity to get something like perceived temperature for humans. But the temperature subjectively perceived by a given individual is going to be more subjective still, and would have to be calculated individually...which is a bit complex. ("Add perceived 0.2 degrees for persons with 1/32 Cherokee heritage in conditions of low sunlight...")

Now, I'm happy with the objective :D measure of temperature as being necessary for discussing things with other people.

In the real world of course, the believers, religious and otherwise hold the field. Science and an attempt at an objective view is very much marginalised.

But, we who have dealt with forteanea know that we too have seen things that aren't there, remembered things that didn't happen and believed things that weren't true. We're aware of how tricksy the world is; those who believe inflexibly are not.
 
Quixote said:
There is however no need to post something like this twice:


Lobelia Overhill said:
Huh?

*wanders off looking confused*

The above behaviour will be considered as spamming and an attempt to derail the thread.


If you wish to ask a question about the topic or ask a poster to clarify their position then do so.

I don't understnad what the thread is about, I stll don't understnad what the thread is about. If my posts were unclear in that respect then I'm awfully sorry, Quioxte. I object strongly to be accused of spamming, but since you're a mod I dare say I won't be allowed to complain about that will I?
 
Lobelia Overhill said:
I don't understnad what the thread is about, I stll don't understnad what the thread is about. If my posts were unclear in that respect then I'm awfully sorry, Quioxte. I object strongly to be accused of spamming, but since you're a mod I dare say I won't be allowed to complain about that will I?

If you don't understand something then ask for clarification - Huh? or a snore icon is just insulting and dismissive. Try putting yourself in his shoes - if you had tried to "vocalise" a tricky and difficult point and what you got was "Huh?" I'd imagine you'd have not been awfully happy about it.

You are welcome to complain but Quixote was just making a post that we all agreed on.
 
What, so you [who agreed with Quixote] think I'm a spammer too then, do you?

Goodbye.
 
"rather, the two can work in perfect concert provided we acknowledge the line demarking the two"

I suspect RING felt that the rational had overstepped this line and was looking for a smack. Me, I'm rooting for the rational...
 
I'm not totally sure I understand either, but let me know if I am correct . . .

A few weeks ago I was having a discussion about the ghost I saw when I was a teenager with a skeptical logical friend of mine . . . (it's somewhere on here if anyone is interested, although its rather prosaic) and was trying to explain how I knew it was something supernatural, rather than a hallucination or my dreaming or something like that.

Obviously my friend had all the benifits of logic to back up his theory, whereas I had to rely on things like "there was a feeling in the air", "a buzzing in the inner ear" and "you know that feeling when someone walks into the room behind you, but you don't hear them? The feeling of a change in the pressure?" and the usual nonsense.

Of couse, the discussion ended with my friend feeling vindicated in that I couldn't prove myself at all, and left me in frustration for the same reason.

Mr. R.I.N.G., is this the sort of argument you referred to?

-Fitz
 
Fitz - that is certainly the kind of arguments that I'm talking about, though I was thinking that maybe I had discovered a larger pattern present in many different fields of society, which is what I was trying to articulate in my first post...

(when it occured to me that a number of my posts in recent threads seemed to be about a similar kind of dismissiveness)
 
"Obviously my friend had all the benifits of logic to back up his theory, whereas I had to rely on things like "there was a feeling in the air", "

Ok, I have to ask the obvious question: why was your friend wrong?

Of course sane people really and truly believe they have seen ghosts etc, just as other really believe the statue moved, it really did happen to a FOAF, the ball did/did not go over the line and the other person shoved them first. This is why we have to bring in the objective :D - at at any rate agree-upon measures like video replays to settle the matter. Is there a better way?

I have many times been absolutely positive and found that I was wrong, and there are plenty of good material about why wtinesses can be unreliable. As I said, after a while you realise how tricksy the world is.
And when someone says they're gonna saw a lady in half, I want to see the incision...
 
Oh no no . . . sorry I probably didn't set that story up well. I didn't intend to imply that I thought he was wrong (although I think he was) just that in a situation such as that one there really isn't anything I could do to prove it. Not that he could prove it either, but he had a lot of facts to back up why it couldn't be possible, whereas I had nothing to back myself up.

The fact that the encounter took place fifteen years ago, and over two hundred miles away from where I now live didn't help.

I've come to the point in my life where I question what it was I saw, I don't always think it was the spirit of a dead person, it could have been many things. But I will not admit to having hallucinated the entire thing. But, of course there is no proof I hold to back this up . . . it's just my feeling. Which I suppose is what Mr. R.I.N.G. meant.

-Fitz
 
If I may: there's a correllation between ghost experiences and a creepy feeling in the air. Nobody knows conclusively what this feeling is. This lack of knowledge can become a basis for dismissal in the mind of an extreme skeptic. Correct?
 
I believe the psychological condition Cognitive Dissonance may be relevant to what Mr Ring is musing about.

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation...
...if someone is called upon to learn something which contradicts what they already think they know — particularly if they are committed to that prior knowledge — they are likely to resist the new learning

To give an example from real life, a very sceptical friend of mine once saw a UFO in the company of a mutual friend. It looked like a huge silver ball floating above their heads, and vanished into thin air moments after they sighted it.

Some months later, I was discussing aliens and UFO's with my sceptical friend and, as usual, he was insisting that anyone who reported a UFO was eithier a liar or mentally ill. "But what about that thing you saw," I asked him. He looked puzzled for a moment, as if he had no idea what I was talking about, then said thoughtfully "Yes, that was a bit odd".

It seemed as if he had genuinely forgotten all about his sighting, and was rather uncomfortable when I reminded him of it.
 
Cognitive dissonance can be fun at times. :) Or, I guess what I mean is, being open-minded can eliminate the dissonant aspect of it somewhat so it feels more like cognitive replenishment at times.

Tamyu - I'm familiar the word "Kami" which, if I understand it correctly, has aspects of the English words "presence" or "charisma" but also "awesome" or "awe-inspiring" but with something of a supernatural connotation like "spirit"; almost like when we say "the spirit of the place." It's almost viewed as a force, right? A person can have kami but so can a mountain an animal or anything that inspires feelings of awe or wonder in those who witness it. Sounds like an cool idea for a thread - the sharing of concepts that exist in Japanese thought but for which there are no exact English-minded equivalents.

Also, there is a thread dealing with what I believe Fitz and Example were describing above (the ghostly atmosphere thing) here, in case anyone's interested.
 
Hmm - the 'weirdspace'/strange feeling effect cettainly makes it sound like an EM field effect. There has been much work linking these to strange experiences, but no conclusive proof yet.

Infrasound has also been famously linked to the same sort of effects.

I am not, note, dismissing this out of hand, just pointing out that even the weirest experinece may have an objective, measurable non-weird basis.

But mainly what we seem to have is the struggle prejudice against facts. Someone who says at the end of an argument "I just know that black people are inferior, even if I haven't for any actual facts to support it" is showing exactly this kind of attitude.
 
There is a theory that the "feeling something's wrong" is, in fact, the reaction to subconcious observation. For instance -

Someone walks into a room and gets a creepy feeling that someone unexpected has been in before them. Everything looks in place at first glance. However, subconciously they've noticed that an ornament, for instance, has been slightly moved.
Person A meets Person B briefly for the first time then afterwards confides in a friend "I don't know why but I don't trust B." Perhaps it was a certain phrase or a particular expression but the subconcious registered it and 'translates' it into a gut feeling.

Both instances might be thought instinctive rather than logic but they could act as indicators that there is solid, logical evidence present, it only needs discovering.
 
Tamyu - I'm familiar the word "Kami" which, if I understand it correctly, has aspects of the English words "presence" or "charisma" but also "awesome" or "awe-inspiring" but with something of a supernatural connotation like "spirit"; almost like when we say "the spirit of the place." It's almost viewed as a force, right? A person can have kami but so can a mountain an animal or anything that inspires feelings of awe or wonder in those who witness it. Sounds like an cool idea for a thread - the sharing of concepts that exist in Japanese thought but for which there are no exact English-minded equivalents.

I`d like to say that you`re right about the meaning of kami but I really can`t. It`s so different from anything I can think of to say in English - you`re right, but you`re wrong at the same time. ;)
One thing is, people can`t have "kami" - it`s a non-human type of thing. You can BECOME a kami (as most people do for their families) but it`s not something that you are initially. I say "a kami" because it is a definite entity to me. Like, we live in an area where the lead kami is the kami of pickling. The secondary kami is the kami of "fulfilling fateful connections" (another idea that takes a lot to explain in English that is one word in Japanese.) Although I`m sure that we have tiny kami in our house for just about everything. It`s good incentive to take care of your things and keep a clean house - until you think about it and realize that dust itself is the embodiment of another kami who can only survive in dirty places.

About other idea that are easier to express -
Everyone is talking about the feeling that something is not right, and the feeling of a ghostly presence.
I was thinking about this and how it relates to the original subject of this thread. If you have to explain what you are talking about - as in there not being a real word for it - it seems like a much more unrealistic concept. It isn`t be accepted as a part of reality by the language.
For example - in Japanese, the feeling of a ghost being there is "Youki" and the feeling that something just isn`t right is "iwakan". They are definite feelings that are recognized as being real enough to have their own words.

-Tamyu
 
May I point something out:

The argument seems to be that we should not disregard data that can not be qualified. Well even the most logical of us wouldn't do that. If we did there would be no traffic on the board.

I will again argue that people who engage in logical argument don't nessesaraly beleve they know more or that they know anythnig whatsoever. As a good post-modernist I don't claim to be able to kow anything or to be able to fine 'truth.'

Is there a way we could devise a methord of investigation just how much people feal they know for certain? I'm sure it would throw up some interesting results.
 
Ok, This is really a reply to Mr RING's original post.
I'd like to polish it a little, but I feel that if I do, I'll loose the essence of my argument, and I'll probably never post.
So, Here goes.....

**Different types of logics**

There certainly seems to be a dominance of lterary forms over other forms. I currently see a hierarchy as follows:
Of literary(philosiphical) reasoning, over formal logic.
Of the novel over poetry.
Of formal logic over the visual,
Of figurative and conceptual, over the abstract and expressionist.
Of visual arts over geometry.

These positions shift over time, for instance at one time formal logic seens to be the dominant force in philosophy. It's postion is much diminished, and attacked by post-modernists.

**A Quick rant**

I also see a diminshed amount of reasoned argument in day-to-day use, and in politics. In day-to-day use, many people seem to lack the ability to think critically. To win such people over, I find that sound-bites, scenarios relevant to their everyday life, or emotive arguments are necessary. In politics, it seems debate has degenerated to underlining of positions, and veiled personal attacks.
This is only a log-jam... Politics and day-to-day thinking will move on.
...And probably return here again.

**Verbal logic, tool or weapon?**

In many ways I disagree that verbal logic has a hold on thinkers of the world. But, given something that attacks the core of their beleifs, then logic will be used as a weapon to destroy the integrity of the person.

Logic is a wonderful tool, but many people seem incapable of using it to further themselves, only to defend themselves. Obviously this gives logic a bad name, and serves to reinforce it's use as a weapon.

I'd even bet that most scientist's method is not logical, but intuitive. One skill that is essential to a scientist is to be able to take their intution, and express it in a logical form in an accademic paper.

**Finally...**

I think that poetic and expressionist arts are greatly underrated, as tools for communication. Partly because the emotions the express seem to often be either overly sentimental, or insipid.

Many post-modernists and post-structuralsists write in a more poetic form.
Seeking to impart an intuitive layer onto the reasoning of their arguments.


For instance, I've been reading italo calvino's invisible cities. It is a series of fictional descriptions of cities told by Marco Polo to Kubli Kahn,
These descriptions convey more about the relationship between the individual and the city, than any book on philosophy, or urban planning could.


Maybe Mr RING, you should expore less direct, and more subversive methods of expression. <Insert "beatnik" simlie here ;) >
 
Lobelia Overhill said:
What, so you [who agreed with Quixote] think I'm a spammer too then, do you?

Goodbye.

Well as I said we agreed that something needed saying and although I might quibble with the exact wording I am a pedant...

-----------
And now back to the main topic and I suppose I'd like a little extra clarification.

Is this sort of returnign to the point made inthe thread about not necessarily wanting an explanation?

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19265

and if so this goes back to the previous discussion we have had about how Forteans deal with data.

On a fundamental level we have to go from the starting position that someone has had an experience they can't explain. This is what sets us apart form the Skeptics who might dimiss some tales out of hand but it does leave us open to accusations of being gullible:

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20540

which I feel rather misses the point or at least the underlying principle.

However, our primate ancestry has left us with an insatiable curiosity and if we didn't want to dig a bit deeper or draw connections between things, etc. then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Is looking for an explanation such a bad thing?

People sometimes suggest it sort of takes the "magic" out of it but I see it as more of a window on other strange and interesting areas that we wouldn't necessarily get acces to without these kinds of things.

Sorry I've gone on a bit and might have missed the point earlier so.......
 
There have been so many good ideas in this thread that I feel loath to comment and muddy up the waters... but here goes - I hope this makes at least some sense.

Emperor, I do think questioning is a good thing, which I hope extends to even questioning the way we form and ask questions, and the tools with which we use to do so.

I was trying to think of a way have made my initial post without causing so much confusion and ill-will, but all I could come up to try and get at what I'm thinking is an analogy:

Numbers. We use numbers to do so much, and understand so much about our enviroment & multiple relationships in a chemical/biological/physics oriented way due to their use. And yet, numbers aren't really real as an individual phenomenon but only as a concept, in that I haven't seen "5" and "72" walking down the street or exhibited in a zoo. They are the ultimate abstraction, and yet they do seem to describe objects in their way. Numbers work for what we need them to do.

But, unless there is something that I'm not aware of (which is entirely possible, I can't discount the possibility), numbers are poor at describing things like human emotional relationships, or even fully predicting and explaining animal behavior (though there might be a die-hard behavorist who would disagree in some way). For example, could a mathmatical program be made to describe the human emotional response to the color red, and have that equation mean anything in terms of emotional response?

So in a way what I was wondering was if verbal logic (the kind of intensive linguistic arguments made by skeptics against paranormal events) might have many great real-world applications and be as internally consistant as numbers & math are, but still not quite be able to describe the totality of the human experience. This could lead to situations where you experience a seemingly real phenomenon & not be able to explain it in a pure logical sense. Because words and their meanings are complex abstractions too, and the systems we've created just can't handle a strong anomoly, or perhaps the structure of logic can't describe the relationship between objects in the right way, or the energies/emotions employed, depending on the situation.

I really hope I haven't offended anybody with this post, I'm not looking to attack anybody or anything like that, and no harmful meanings are intended by this.
 
Mr RING: Its not like such things are mutually exlcusive and a variety of evidence is often brought into play.

Hufford's book on the Night Hag (and relate parasomnias) has the sub title: "An Experience-Centered Stuy of Supernatural Assault Traditions" and he develops ways of working with people's reports while being able to extract a bigger picture and do other analysis on the data so in the end it may just be about scale.
 
" And yet, numbers aren't really real as an individual phenomenon but only as a concept,"

Well, this is back to the Platonic/Aristotelian divide. For my part, I would say that numbers are closer to objective reality, we just dimly perceive the shadows they cast...we can argue about whether laws of nature are a human construct later...

" For example, could a mathmatical program be made to describe the human emotional response to the color red, and have that equation mean anything in terms of emotional response? "

Yes, there is a whole science (albeit a poor one) devoted to this, used by people like designers and advertisers. COlour combinations have particular sets of associations and evoke particular responses, which is why it was such a bold move using orange packaging for washing powder.

"Verbal logic (the kind of intensive linguistic arguments made by skeptics against paranormal events) "

Huh? Verbal logic is neutral - it can be and is used just as much by believers as skeptics.
Common sense is (obviously) no use in arguing 'against' the paranormal, as we know that so much science is counter-intuitive, and believers deploy exactly the same types of argument (eg the oft-quoted 'there are so many planets out there, one of them must have life...).

If skeptics gave up on verbal logic and used non-verbal intuition - "I just know you can't have seen a ghost, I can't explain how I know" - then the conversation would not be any better. It only gets interesting when there's a certain amount of logic in the air. Arguments without it, whether with religious or other believers, get tedious very quickly.

"I really hope I haven't offended anybody with this post"

Wimp! :blah:
 
Mr Snowman said:
...in this empirical age, emotive arguments will always lose out to quantifiable arguments.

Obviously, you haven't discussed gun control with Handgun Control Inc., or nuclear power with Greenpeace.
 
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