• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Homo Floresiensis ('Hobbits'; Small Archaic Humans)

The Frog: No worries - it fascinating stuff and this is really only the start. We still have the DNA tests, more digs, more searches on other islands, ethnographic/cryptozoological studies, a full analysis of the finds that were there, etc., etc. so there will be so great twists and turns in the tale yet.

The Creationists? I suspect they will follow what appears to be the line of the Multiregionalists (or those who follow the array of Continuity theories for who this would be nearly a killer blow to their theories) which is, as I quoted above, that the find may just be an extreme, insular form of modern human. From the preliminary analysis of the skeleton published in Nature I find this highly unlikely but we'll see.

Also there is an article (or two) in the current FT [FT191:4-5,16] a version of which will be online here - it just isn't quite yet but I've posted a correction and stop gap version here:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=465765#post465765
 
Emperor said:
Also there is an article (or two) in the current FT [FT191:4-5,16] a version of which will be online here - it just isn't quite yet but I've posted a correction and stop gap version here:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=465765#post465765

Its now online here and as more articles appear and are put online we'll update this page:

http://www.forteantimes.com/exclusive/flores.shtml

----------------
This is a good discussion of endemic island fauna:

They might be giants, or dwarfs

Evolution often takes unexpected, and sometimes bizarre, directions on islands

By Beth Daley, Globe Staff | November 16, 2004

Their lives could have been the plot of a monster movie. Three-foot-tall humans recently discovered to have lived on an Indonesian island had to dodge giant lizards and rats the size of dogs. They were so tiny it appears they couldn't even overcome adult dwarf elephants, forced instead to hunt the animals' young.

But their adult size -- comparable to a modern 4-year-old -- had an upside, too, apparently allowing them to survive in isolation for tens of thousands of years. The existence of these little people, reported in the journal Nature last month, provides new scientific fodder for a mysterious evolutionary phenomenon that can radically shrink or balloon a species' size when it becomes isolated on islands.

"When species get to an island, you get evolution taking unexpected directions," said James H. Brown, distinguished professor of biology at the University of Mexico who has studied the phenomenon. "And some of it is bizarre."

Ever since the days of Charles Darwin, who did much of his research on the Galapagos Islands off the coast of Ecuador, scientists have wondered about these island species and what lessons they hold about evolution's flexibility, speed and durability. Islands are natural laboratories to examine evolution without the clutter of too many species and too much competition.

The little human species found on Flores Island was the first sign that people were shaped by this powerful island force. But the world's islands have been -- and remain -- filled with dwarfs and giants of folklore proportions: Enormous 9-foot birds called moa used to roam the forests of New Zealand, a pygmy mammoth used to inhabit California's Channel Islands, and the fearsome Komodo dragon still stalks Indonesian island goats. Even field mice on tiny Muskeget Island off Nantucket exhibit this "gigantism" -- growing 20 percent bigger than mice found on the mainland.

These extreme creatures may also add a shade of truth to stories long dismissed as fairy tales. Indonesians have talked for centuries about the Ebu Gogo, tiny, hairy people who were said to eat anything they could. If little people were real, so, too, perhaps was the giant that inspired Jack's battle atop a beanstalk.

No one really knows what makes some island species grow and others shrink -- although scientists expect the answers hinge on the availability of food, the competition for that food, and the number of predators on an island. Some researchers even suggest that the size of the island may play some role in shaping a species' size.

One broad rule of thumb seems to hold true: Mammals that start out bigger than a rabbit evolve smaller on islands, and those that start tinier than a bunny get bigger.

"This is a pretty dramatic and regular phenomenon that suggests something fundamental underlies it," said V. Louise Roth, Duke University associate professor who studies mammalian evolution and body size. "There are many questions as well as some exceptions."

-------------
Many island species evolved from mainland relatives that found themselves on islands by swimming, floating or flying there. Once there, the plants, insects, or humans found themselves having to eat different foods and escape different predators.

Being large can help creatures avoid being eaten, but it also takes a lot of energy. Placed on an island with no enemies, it makes sense for a species to evolve to a less energetically demanding size. A small creature that may have remained tiny on the mainland to wriggle into crevices their enemies couldn't reach may grow a bit bigger on islands with fewer predators.

While big animals like hippos and elephants tend to get markedly smaller on islands, little mammals inexplicably don't get too big. "The giant rats aren't the size of Volkswagens," said John Damuth, research biologist at the University of California at Santa Barbara.

But just to add to the confusion, what we think of as a gigantic island species today may actually be a dwarf version of a far larger, extinct species. Some researchers hypothesize that the Komodo dragon is a small survivor of a much larger species, left to evolve alone while its mainland family was wiped out. Ditto for the famous Galapagos tortoises that can grow to 4 feet in length and weigh 450 pounds or more, said James Gibbs of the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry.

Researchers are not sure yet whether they will be able to figure out why the Flores people evolved to be so diminutive from what its discoverers believe were its Homo erectus ancestors. It might be because there were fewer predators on the island and less need for size. But it might also be that the humans who were by chance smaller had a greater likelihood of surviving and reproducing. It appears that the species also had long arms for their size, perhaps allowing them to climb trees to escape predators.

Australian and Indonesian researchers believe the dwarf humans were able to thrive on Flores from about 95,000 years ago until 12,000 years ago, before they and the dwarf elephants were wiped out by a volcanic eruption. The discovery upended theories that modern-day people have been the sole human species on the planet for tens of thousands of years, and raises questions about whether the two groups ever met.

The discovery was also humbling.

"We always think we are a special case," said Dirk Van Vuren, professor of wildlife biology at the University of California at Davis who was not involved in the research. "But humans follow the same rules."

Source
 
It was bound to happen with one of the most important finds in a long time - this could be a sticky one if someone is intent on proving it is human has possession:

Hobbit skull in tug of war

Anna Salleh
ABC Science Online


Thursday, 25 November 2004


A diplomatic stoush between Indonesian and Australian scientists over access to the Hobbit-human's skull could be resolved by the end of the year.

The team that discovered the Hobbit wants to analyse DNA from the skull, which could help settle how human the creature actually is.

But Australian members of the team that discovered the Hobbit were recently surprised that the skull had been given to someone outside the team.

Professor Richard Roberts of the University of Wollongong and one of the Australian scientists involved in the discovery, told ABC Science Online the team thought the skull was being kept safely in a locked drawer at the Indonesian Centre for Archaeology in Jarkarta.

But about two weeks ago they discovered Indonesia's premier palaeontologist, Professor Teuku Jacob of Gadjah Mada University, was looking after it.

Jacob had previously challenged the idea that Hobbits were a new species of human and argued instead they were a sub-species of Homo sapiens.


"The normal protocol is to seek permission from the centre where the specimen is being kept and make a time to see it on the premises," Roberts said. "A specimen is rarely transported away because it's too delicate."

Roberts and team want the skull to carry out further tests including sampling DNA from the teeth, which would help settle the debate over the creature's origins once and for all.

The team made headlines last month with the announcement of a new species of hominid, they called H. floresiensis, after the Indonesian island of Flores where it was found.

But not all scientists agree it is a new species. Some, including Jacob, say it is more like a modern human, albeit it one with a brain disorder that gave it a small grapefruit-sized head.

Return of the skull

Dr Thomas Sutikna of the Indonesian Centre for Archaeology in Jakarta and the Indonesian team member who actually discovered the skull on the Indonesian island of Flores, said Jacob had borrowed the skull to do "more analysis" and that it would be returned soon.

"It is possible that by the end of December the skull will be returned," he told ABC Science Online from Jakarta.

Sutikna said he had met Associate Professor Mike Morwood of the University of New England, another of the Australian scientists involved in the discovery, who flew to Indonesia this week to negotiate access to the skull.

Source
 
More on that and other controversies brewing (even highlihgting possible rivalries between Science and Nature?):

Hobbit defended against research Gollum

By Deborah Smith, Science Editor
November 26, 2004

Australian scientists have dismissed as ill-informed claims that a member of a tiny new species of prehistoric human, known as Hobbits, found on the Indonesian island of Flores, was a modern human with a brain deformity.

Peter Brown, of the University New England, who was a member of the team that made the discovery, said the suggestion had come from a researcher who had not seen the specimen nor the archaeological site.

He said Maciej Henneberg, a palaeopathologist at the University of Adelaide, was not an authority on ancient hominids. "And his claims have not been peer reviewed."

Professor Henneberg told the journal Science that the Australian and Indonesian research team had "jumped the gun" in deciding the metre-high human that lived about 18,000 years ago was a member of a new species, Homo floresiensis.

He said the skull was similar to that of a 4000-year-old modern human found on Crete with a condition called secondary microcephaly, which causes a small brain.

The discovery of the new species, reported last month in the journal Nature, the leading competitor to Science, has been hailed by scientists as one of the greatest finds in decades - one that will rewrite our understanding of human evolution.

Professor Brown said remains from at least six other Hobbits, apart from the original female skeleton, had been found this year in the Flores cave and it was inconceivable that all of them could have had a serious brain condition and been able to breed and survive.

The Flores find had been reviewed by 12 experts before publication. "There's not a higher hurdle to jump than Nature peer review," Professor Brown said.

This month, a leading Indonesian palaeoanthropologist, Teuka Jacob, of Gadjah Mada University in Jakarta, also said the remains were from a modern human.

Professor Jacob, however, was recently allowed to remove the female Hobbit's skull and some of her bones from the National Research Centre of Archaeology in Jakarta to his own laboratory.

The move sparked concerns among scientists internationally that this could interfere with free access to the important finds.

However, Thomas Sutikna, the director of the Indonesian excavation team that uncovered the Hobbits, yesterday played down their fears.

He said Professor Jacob, who is regarded as the father of archaeology in Indonesia, was expected to return the "borrowed" remains by the end of December.

He said Professor Jacob was free to have his own opinions about the remains but the Australian and Indonesian team stood by their published results.

Source
 
Liang Bua, human evolution study center

Yemris Fointuna, The Jakarta Post, Manggarai

At the end of October, the fossilized remains of a one-meter-tall hominid were discovered in Flores island, which lies within East Nusa Tenggara province.

The Jakarta Post's Yemris Fointuna has written a profile of Liang Bua, where the discovery was made. The accompanying article makes reference to the role of dwarfs in Flores mythology.

Liang Bua, a village nearby the main town of Ruteng in Manggarai regency, East Nusa Tenggara province, has abruptly shot to world fame. Scientists, particularly anthropologists and archeologists, have been drawn to it for its valuable find in human evolution, a mystery long hidden in a cave.

The conical cave, measuring 50 meters by 70 m and about 20 m in height, testifies to the activity of prehistoric men, now known as homo floresiensis, on Flores island.

The fossil remains of a one-meter-tall hominid were discovered by Indonesian, Australian, American and Dutch scientists during a mission that began last year.

The Flores hominid, according to some world experts, is the shortest human species found in the last 100 years. It is believed that the hominid had dark and scaly skin, making its discovery a breakthrough in evolutionary studies.

Flores men are believed to have migrated from Java 850,000 years ago and once coexisted with homo sapiens, or modern men, before the extinction of the ancestral form some 13,000 years back, following a volcanic storm.

According to experts, these little men mostly lived in isolation in forested areas and liked hunting in West Flores. They were originally a bit taller, but their secluded cave life reduced their average height over the centuries.

Liang Bua, or Teras hamlet to be exact, is on the fringe of Ruteng. Based on the town's master plan, it belongs to an agricultural development zone, due to its fertile soil and numerous springs.

It is about 15 kilometers south of Ruteng, or about an hour's drive.

To reach the village of 2,000 people, visitors can take either the hamlet route -- from Golopau to Waepeca to Tado to Rua to Liang Bua -- or the southern route from Poco to Ting and Waemulu, through farm land. All roads leading to the village are in bad repair.

The virtually deserted and isolated area has apparently been neglected by the government. Villagers prefer to walk to Ruteng as they cannot afford public transportation fares.

The main means of public transportation in the village, locally known as the "wooden bus", is a modified truck with canvas roofing and seats.

With the discovery of the Flores hominid fossil, visitors flocked to the village. "Most of them came from other regions to see the place where the 'dwarf' was unearthed, as reported by the mass media," cave guard Rikus Bandar told The Jakarta Post.

Tourists do not generally venture into the heart of the cave. A tunnel is located within the cave, leading to a lake situated around 200 meters below the earth's surface.

A hole of unknown depth is another notable feature of the cave. But no outsider has been so bold as to enter the tunnel so far.

Liang Bua village head Nikolaus Jehamur said he had frequently appealed to the people living around the cave to move to a new settlement, but they refused to leave, claiming that the cave was part of their heritage.

For the villagers, the cave is something that has always been there. They have participated in its management since 1980, when the regional administration declared the site a tourist destination. "We are pleasantly surprised to see that our village has become world-famous after the discovery of the Flores fossil," he added.

According to Agus Mangga and Rikus Bandar, both assigned to watch over the cave, archeological teams have visited the location almost every year. "They've been digging and seeking fossils and stones, but we have no idea what they are after. We're just helping them," said Agus.

Head of the archeology and history unit of East Nusa Tenggara's National Education Office, Siktus Tey Seran, said on a separate occasion that the cave had been explored by teams of experts from Jakarta, Bandung, Australia and America from 1976 to 2003, and this year elephant and human fossils were discovered.

"It has been explored many times, but the results of their studies is not our concern, we are only accompanying them," said Tey Seran.

The most recent research and excavation project at the cave was carried out by the National Archeology Agency together with Australia's New England University and Canada's Marter Mark University.

Prof. Dr. Soejono headed the Indonesian team comprising Jatmiko, Emanuel Wahyu Saptomo, Sri Warsito and Rokus Due Awe.

Prof. Dr. Mike Marword, assisted by Douglas Hobbs, led the Australian group while Canada's team comprised Jack Rink, Bert Roberts and Karrie Grant.

Source
 
Interesting stuff:

Dwarfs in Flores mythology

Liang Bua, in the local language of Teras, means cold water of the cave. It is so named because the stalactites of the cave's upper walls always drop fresh and cold water onto the floor below. According to folklore, Reba Ruek was a short, hairy and dark-skinned man in Liang Bua, who was first discovered by boar hunters.

Will Grasiasis, a prominent figure in Ruteng district, said the big cave, hidden by dense foliage, had once been unknown to locals, until six young men set off one morning to hunt wild boar. Despite the five hounds that accompanied them, the men had no luck.

By late afternoon, the youths were getting hungry when two boars, a male and a female, appeared, running in the direction of Liang Bua.

In front of the cave, the boars suddenly turned into quails, entering a hole in the cave. The hounds ran after them, into the hole, with only their tails left visible. Mambo and Magang, two of the hunters, watched them from the mouth of the cave.

Out of thirst, they too entered the cave and drank the water that dripped off its stalactites. The water was cold as ice, hence the name Liang Bua (Liang: cave; Bua: cold or ice).

While they were enjoying the fresh water, two young dwarfs appeared unexpectedly. One of the dark-skinned and hairy midgets, referred to by the name, Reba Ruek, began to speak in the local dialect: "Come and join us, because we are brothers." As the hunters refused, the two mysterious men vanished.

Mambo and Magang were scared stiff. They screamed wildly and fled from Liang Bua. But, on reaching Teras hamlet, both died instantly. Their deaths caused fear among Teras and Bere villagers.

"Nobody has since dared to hunt for boars, or roam the area alone, as Reba Ruek is believed to remain at large," Wil Grasias said, describing the effect of this myth. The story has now spread beyond Flores to Bima (West Nusa Tenggara) and Gowa (South Sulawesi) through kinship and marriage.

Martinus, a Liang Bua resident, spoke in the same tone. According to him, several days after the hunters died, a strange fire ball flew out from the cave every night into Wae Mulu river and disappeared. "Locals believe it was an omen of wera or disaster, so nobody dares to look at the cave in the evening," he said.

He claimed that an eerie shriek could also be heard in the forest around Liang Bua at night, which the locals took to be Reba Ruek's voice. "We are your brothers, but as you're not friendly, watch our fireballs and meet your doom," Martinus imitated the threat that is conveyed in the local legend.

-- Yemris Fointuna

Source
 
The contovery is still going - I heard Chris Stringer on radio 4 the other talking about it and a lot of people are miffed. I'm putitng a 100/1 bet on there being a "mysterious" accident.

Last Update: Thursday, December 2, 2004. 9:31pm (AEDT)

The remains of a small bodied hominid.


Indonesian scientist 'borrows' Flores man bones

A row is brewing over the bones of hobbit-sized humans unearthed in Indonesia after a prominent researcher borrowed the remains, upsetting local and Australian scientists who found them.

The remains of Homo floresiensis were found in a cave on the remote island of Flores in 2003.

Some Indonesian researchers have complained the project has been hijacked by foreigners and that they have not been given access.

The team that found the bones of several prehistoric hominids says they represent a new species which stood just three feet tall, used miniature tools and walked the earth 13,000 years ago.

The team published their findings in October, stunning the science world with a discovery what some have said could substantially rewrite the history of human evolution.

However, some scientists in Indonesia have disputed the findings, saying the skeletons are not those of a new species but simply homo sapiens with tiny bodies.

That group, led by 79-year-old Teuku Jacob, Indonesia's palaeoanthropology doyen and lecturer at Gajah Mada University in Yogyakarta, has since borrowed most of the bones found on Flores.

The archeologist who first found Flores man, Thomas Sutikna, says Mr Jacob took possession of a skull last month.

Yesterday, he moved most of the remaining bones from Indonesia's main archaeology centre in Jakarta to his campus.

"I am really disappointed," Mr Situkna said.

"But we want this issue to be handled without a row. So we hope he will return the bones by late December."

Mr Jacob could not be reached to comment.

Mr Sutikna says that some Indonesians have criticised the participation of foreigners in the project, which is seen as a source of national pride.

"Let's say he has borrowed them so Indonesian scientists get their turn in studying them and he agreed to not put them in harm's way," he said.

Mr Sutikna says that the archaeology centre initially objected to the removal of the bones by the senior professor, but eventually had to succumb to nationalistic pressures.

"Science must not be complicated by the origin of the scientists. In science, we also should not be directed by seniority," Mr Sutikna said.

Mr Sutikna says that his Australian counterparts were displeased when they learned of the development, but the joint team has agreed to wait until a December deadline given to Mr Jacob before taking any action.

The remains were found as a result of decades of research by Indonesians, who shelved the project in the 1970s due to a lack of funds.

A partnership between Jakarta's archaeology centre and the Australian University of New England helped the research to get off the ground again.

They struck gold last year, finding the bones of a creature more resembling the fictional hobbits of the Lord of the Rings trilogy than modern humans.

Small tools and the remains of a pygmy elephant, or Stegodon, hunted by the hominids for food have also been unearthed.


------------------
- Reuters

Source

Researcher commandeers hobbit fossils

Leigh Dayton and Cindy Tahija
December 03, 2004

A PROMINENT Indonesian researcher has nabbed all the remains of the new-found species of ancient human, and refuses to allow scientists who made the remarkable discovery to study them.

Speaking yesterday from his office at Gadjah Mada University in Jogjakarta, Teuku Jacob said: "They already have their names on (scientific) papers.

"When we finish our work everybody else can do what they want to do," Professor Jacob said.

The 79-year-old paleoanthropologist had already taken the skull and jaw of the tiny 18,000-year-old human that grabbed international headlines in October, along with the jaw of a second "hobbit".

Last month, Professor Jacob claimed the original hobbit was a deformed but fully modern person.

In a twist, observers at Jakarta's Centre for Archaeology - where the fossils were being held - said the co-leader of the discovery team, 76-year-old Radien Soejono, helped Professor Jacob pack the remaining fossils into a "large, brown leather case", with no documents authorising removal.

Professor Soejono, an archaeologist with the centre, and Mike Morwood of the University of New England in Armidale, NSW, headed the group that unearthed the seven ancient humans at Liang Bua cave on Indonesia's Flores Island.

Professor Jacob's action violates an agreement signed by the centre and UNE.

It states that the fossils are to be stored at the centre and should be available to all researchers for study.

Professor Soejono was last night unavailable for comment, as was the director of the centre Tony Djubiantono.

But the head of daily operations at Liang Bua, Thomas Sutikna, confirmed the events.

"It is a pity that Professor Jacob is limiting the analysis to his hand-picked (team)," said Mr Sutikna, who excavated the first tiny human.

Mr Sutikna said an itemised list of the fossils taken by Professor Jacob had been compiled and the professor had signed a document agreeing to return the material by January 1.

But Professor Jacob has failed to return other fossils "borrowed" during his long career, including key finds from Java that have not been studied properly as a result.

Speaking of the incident, discovery team member Peter Brown, of the UNE, said: "It's a tragedy. The material should never have left the building. It should have been described by the team that found it".

Source
 
Hobbits? We've got a cave full

By Deborah Smith, Science Editor
December 6, 2004



Chief Epiradus Dhoi Lewa has a strange tale to tell. Sitting in his bamboo and wooden home at the foot of an active volcano on the remote Indonesian island of Flores, he recalls how people from his village were able to capture a tiny woman with long, pendulous breasts three weeks ago.

"They said she was very little and very pretty," he says, holding his hand at waist height. "Some people saw her very close up."

The villagers of Boawae believe the strange woman came down from a cave on the steaming mountain where short, hairy people they call Ebu Gogo lived long ago.

"Maybe some Ebu Gogo are still there," the 70-year-old chief told the Herald through an interpreter in Boawae last week.

The locals' descriptions of Ebu Gogo as about a metre tall, with pot bellies and long arms match the features of a new species of human "hobbits" whose bones were recently unearthed by Australian and Indonesian researchers in a different part of Flores in a cave known as Liang Bua.

The unexpected discovery of this tiny Homo floresiensis, who existed until at least 12,000 years ago at Liang Bua, before being apparently wiped out by a volcanic eruption, was hailed as one of the most important archaeological finds in decades when it was announced in October.
AdvertisementAdvertisement

The chief adds that the mysterious little woman in Boawae somehow "escaped" her captors, and the local police said they knew nothing of her existence when he quizzed them.

The prospect that some hobbits still exist in pockets of thick, fertile jungle on Flores is extremely unlikely, says Douglas Hobbs, a member of the team that discovered Homo floresiensis. But it is possible they survived near Boawae until 300 or so years ago, when the chief's ancestors moved into the area, he says.

The detailed stories that the villagers tell about the legendary Ebu Gogo on the volcano have convinced the Australian and Indonesian team to search for bones of hobbits in this cave when they return to the rugged island next year, says Hobbs, an emeritus archaeologist with the University of New England, who discussed excavation plans with the chief last week.

Getting to the cave on the 2100-metre-high Ebulobo volcano, however, will be no simple matter for the team led by Professor Mike Morwood of UNE. The blood of a pig must first be spilt in this society where Catholic faith is melded with animist beliefs and ancestor worship.

The sacrifice and the feast will please the ancestors and bring many villagers together to talk about the cave, says the chief, whose picture of his grandfather, the king, in traditional head-dress, sits framed on the wall next to images of Jesus.

If the right rituals are followed, "then we will be able to find the road to the hole again", he says.

A Dutch palaeontologist, Dr Gert van den Bergh, a member of the team, was first shown the cave at a distance more than a decade ago, after hearing folk tales of the Ebu Gogo, which means "grandmother who eats everything".

People living around the volcano told him a consistent story of the hairy creatures that devoured whatever they could grasp in their long fingers. The villagers tolerated the stealing of food until the Ebu Gogo began to snatch babies and eat them too. They then set upon the little people, forcing them out of the cave with bales of burning grass.

Van den Bergh dismissed the tales as akin to those of leprechauns and elves, until the hobbit bones were found.

While the search for more bones is being planned, a political furore has broken out after a leading Indonesian palaeoanthropologist - with no connection to the find - last week "borrowed" all the delicate remains from six hobbits found at Liang Bua against the wishes of local and Australian team members. Professor Teuku Jacob, of Gadjah Mada University, who has challenged the view that Homo floresiensis is a new species, had previously taken the skull and bones of the most complete specimen, a 30-year-old female hobbit, from the Indonesian Centre for Archaeology in Jakarta, where they had been kept.

Professor Morwood said it was wrong that the team who found the remains were unable to analyse them first. "It is not good for the Indonesian researchers nor their institution."

However, he said Professor Jacob had signed an agreement to return all the bones by January 1.

Source
 
I find the whole thing with Jacob fascinating, particularly in light of Lloyd Pye's somewhat ludicrous claims at UnCon.

Pye claimed that the establishment would later "discover" that the Flores find was in no way related to humans, and would gloss over this sudden change in opinion. (Never mind that they had already, prior to his comments, dismissed any idea that it was a particularly close relative.) Here we have exactly the opposite occurring. The "establishment" wishes to preserve its find as being a new species, and we have a "maverick" who wants to convince everyone that it is nothing other than an extremely short homo sapiens.

Funny how things don't always work out the way you'd expect.
 
Homo floresiensis

Skulduggery

Dec 9th 2004


The lady vanishes

STRANGE things are afoot in the saga of cousin Florence, the diminutive hominid announced to the world with much brouhaha in October. Homo floresiensis, to give the name that science has attached to her skeletal remains and those of six other individuals of the same species found in a cave on the Indonesian island of Flores, excited scientific interest not merely by being a new species of human, but by being one that flourished at the same time as Homo sapiens. The most recent of the seven fossils appears to date from a mere 13,000 years ago, well after Homo sapiens had passed through Indonesia on its way to Australia. But that, and other facts concerning the discovery, may now be hard to confirm because most of the remains have been borrowed by Teuku Jacob, a researcher at Gadjah Mada University in Jogjakarta, who was not involved in the original excavation.

This is rather irregular behaviour, and seems to contradict an agreement between the Indonesian and Australian institutions involved in the dig (the Centre for Archaeology in Jakarta, and the University of New England, in New South Wales) that the remains would be kept at the Centre for Archaeology, and made available for study by outside researchers. It might, however, not be anything to worry about if it were not for the fact that Dr Jacob, a doyen of Indonesian palaeoanthropology, has a reputation for sitting on specimens and preventing others from examining them. In the case of Homo floresiensis, it seems he was miffed that he was not involved in the original project, even though the idea of digging in Flores was not to find new species, but rather to look for evidence of exactly how and when humanity first arrived in Australia. Hence the involvement of Australian researchers. However, since Florence's existence was announced in a paper in Nature, he has been trying to get in on the act.

First, he wrote a piece for Nature's rival Science, suggesting that the skeleton was merely a diminished—possibly diseased—version of Homo sapiens, rather than a genuinely new species. That was despite the fact that many of its features are completely different from those of modern humans. Then he removed the original specimen that was the subject of the Nature paper. Now, he has taken most of the rest of the material—dramatically stuffing the bones into a leather case with the assistance of Radien Soejono, a researcher at the Centre for Archaeology who was one of the authors of the paper in Nature, but apparently without the permission of the centre's director, Tony Djubiantono.

Dr Jacob says he will return the fossils by the beginning of January. If he does so, and they have not been damaged by their undignified treatment, then the incident will have turned out to be a storm in a teacup. But if not, then the case of Homo floresiensis risks becoming like that of the Dead Sea scrolls, which were kept in purdah for years by a group of academics who would neither publish their findings, nor allow anyone else to examine them.

Source
 
To anome
why print two french quotes below your name and then explain in English ?
ps what do they mean ?
 
It would be amusing sitting in the peanut gallery on this one if it wasn't so important - I am preparing my gear in case the call comes to liberate it.

Hopping mad over hobbits: removal of bones sparks archaeological turf war

December 11, 2004


A remarkable discovery has taken a nasty turn as politics intervenes, Deborah Smith writes.

The newly found remains of six little "hobbits" lay safely locked in a cabinet in Jakarta.

The delicate bones were vital evidence that a female member of a new species of miniature human - unearthed last year in a cave on Flores, and regarded as the most important archaeological discovery in decades - was not just one of a kind.

The finders were the keepers. And they were preparing to examine this year's treasure trove closely.

But then, suddenly, the remains were gone.

In the culmination of a struggle between Eastern and Western values, youth and old age, and politics and science, an elderly Indonesian researcher with no connection to the discovery was able to pack the hobbit bits in a special suitcase and fly them to his own laboratory in Yogyakarta.

Teuku Jacob, a palaeoanthropologist, had previously "borrowed" the skull and bones of the first female hobbit. Now he has the lot.

The move last week outraged the Australian and Indonesian researchers who discovered the new species, Homo floresiensis. "There is no justification for it," said a team member, Peter Brown, of the University of New England. But the grab was not totally unexpected. "With a find of such international significance you expect there will be a clamour for control and possession," he said.
AdvertisementAdvertisement

The Herald visited Flores last week to explore the lost world of the hobbits. The fact these little creatures with brains the size of grapefruits could hunt pygmy elephants, fight off komodo dragons and survive until 12,000 years ago challenges ideas about what it is to be human.

Professor Jacob's action breached an agreement between UNE and the Centre for Archaeology in Jakarta, said the team's leader, Professor Mike Morwood. But Professor Jacob, of Gadjah Mada University, has signed a promise to return them by January 1.

Professor Brown is sceptical he will honour it. "But we try to think positively," said Dr Thomas Sutikna, a member of the Indonesian team.

Professor Jacob, 75, described the Australians as arrogant "sheriffs" but said he intended to return the remains if only to stop the media pestering him "at midnight, breakfast and lunch".

It was Radien Soejono, a former director of the Jakarta centre, and the senior Indonesian author on the research project, who insisted Professor Jacob take the bones, despite Professor Jacob's claim the hobbits are just deformed modern humans.

Although long retired, he is still very influential, but some observers suspect he has not grasped the significance of the find. He said it was right the Indonesian expert had the bones. "I trust him. We are good friends."

Professor Jacob said the Australians provided the money, but "Soejono provided a good site". Professor Jacob quoted a Chinese proverb: "Don't forget the man who dug the first well."

"In the East we respect old age. If he didn't ask us to study the bones we wouldn't do it."

Source
 
And an excellent report with background, plans, etc.:

It's a small world after all

December 11, 2004


Deborah Smith enters a lost world of little people that is about to make its mark on the international map.

WHEN the Australian archaeologist Douglas Hobbs arrives in the hot and steamy valley on Flores where the hobbits were found, word gets around quickly.

Within moments, a farmer, Rikus Bandar, and his youngest son, Agustinus Mangga, come running from different directions out of their fields of coffee, rice and corn.

It is their first chance to talk with one of the discovery team since the news broke that put their cave - Liang Bua - on the international map.

Family members, young and old, crowd into Bandar's small bamboo hut. Over a thick brew of coffee, they express surprise that in the month since the scientific announcement many locals and about 25 people from as far afield as Sweden and England have made the long trip to the village.

They proudly show Hobbs a newspaper article from Jakarta which has grainy photographs of them. Father and son are no longer just ordinary farmers on this remote island. They are also now the guardians of one of the most famous caves on Earth.

Bandar and Mangga hold the keys to the gate of the large limestone shelter around the corner from the hut where, for at least 80,000 years, little humans, only a metre tall with pot bellies and very long arms, took refuge from the heat and feasted on mini elephants.

Flores is one of the world's most unstable areas, with 13 active volcanos. An eruption 12,000 years ago is thought to have wiped out the hobbits.

To get to the cave today it takes a four-hour climb in a good car along the narrow, twisting road from the west coast of the predominantly Catholic island to the closest hill town, Ruteng. A large cross gleams white on a nearby mountain top beside Flores's tallest peak, Gunung Ranaka, which last erupted in 1987.

Making the 14-kilometre descent on a bumpy side road to Liang Bua takes another hour. The big chunks of ancient coral seabed dotted between the trees on the way down give the first clue that something unusual is ahead.

For decades Bandar has helped local archaeologists who made the trek there. When the road in was just a track, the scientists slept in the the cave.

For the past four winters he also acted as foreman for the Australian and Indonesian team, led by Professor Mike Morwood, of the University of New England, that discovered the new human species, organising local villagers to help them dig for fossils each year.

One day, Liang Bua could be the jewel in the crown of a new tourism industry for the impoverished island.

For now, however, there is not much to see inside the 30-metre-wide cave, except for two sticks that record the spots where hobbit bones were found. Any of its remaining attractions lie protected beneath hundreds of tonnes of dirt until the scientists return next year.

THE Australian connection to the hobbit story began a decade ago in the West Australian Kimberley region. Morwood and Hobbs were on a dig when conversation turned to the big questions about our continent: when, why and how did the first people arrive in Australia 50,000 or so years ago? They knew pottery had been left scattered on the Kimberley coastline by Indonesian seafarers who came between 1720 and 1900 to collect sea cucumbers. It set them wondering whether ancient humans might have used the same currents and sea routes to travel south. "So we hired a boat and went sailing in the shallow Arafura Sea," Hobbs says.

Most importantly, the journey turned their attention to Flores. The sea routes used by the Indonesian sailors passed by this tropical island, which had been colonised in the 16th century by the Portuguese , who gave it its name: Cabo das Flores, or Cape of Flowers.

The Dutch followed the Portuguese. And among those priests who set about converting the locals to Catholicism last century was Father Theodor Verhoeven, a keen archaeologist.

Verhoeven dug at many sites in the 1950s and '60s, including the hobbit cave, which he also used as a classroom. "'He would walk around wondering what was under his feet," Hobbs says.

Morwood found scientific papers the priest had published in obscure Dutch and German journals that outlined his discovery of stone tools and an extinct type of elephant known as a stegodon in a valley called the Soa Basin.

While his colleagues dismissed Verhoeven as just an enthusiastic amateur, Morwood took a punt and headed to Flores in 1995.

At Mata Menge in the Soa Basin, which has been dated to 840,000 years old, he found stone tools in clear association with stegodon bones.

It was a major find. It meant archaic humans, Homo erectus, had been able to cross the treacherous ocean channels from Java a very long time ago.

ON THE Earth's time scale, Flores was created yesterday. It is only about 40 million years old, while northern Australia is more than 2 billion years old.

As Australia's tectonic plate has slowly drifted north, it has collided with the Eurasian plate, sliding down under it and pushing the land upwards, to form the island.

Flores sits over a hot spot resulting in regular volcanic eruptions and earthquakes. One severe shake and a tsunami destroyed the town of Maumere in 1992, killing more than 2500 people.

There is no forgetting this on the trip to Mata Menge. The road from the nearest big town, Bajawa, carves its way down the side of an ancient volcanic crater. The smell of sulphurous gas, venting from below the Earth's surface, wafts through the undergrowth.

Unusual-looking, large, black boulders lie on the hillside, the weathered remains of the centre of an ancient lava flow. At the bottom, people bathe and play in the hot springs that bubble out of the ground.

The 35-kilometre wide Soa Basin is circled by mountains and volcanos. Looming ominously to the south is Gunung Ebulobo, still active, steam belching out of the top of it 2100-metre-high perfectly shaped cone.

Morwood's stone tool find at Mata Menge secured a three-year grant from the Australian Research Council, which he stretched to five years with some juggling of exchange rates.

The Australians have a philosophy of drawing on the expertise of scientists from many disciplines as well as joining Indonesian experts. The Soa Basin studies have been a collaboration with the Indonesian Geological Research and Development Centre, led by Dr Fachroel Aziz. The scientists also try to involve villagers as much as possible so the research benefits the people of Flores, says Hobbs.

In this friendly society, where Christianity has been transplanted onto a tradition of animism and ancestor worship, the people like to sacrifice a chicken or a pig before each excavation begins, to examine the entrails and celebrate with a feast and some palm wine. "Blood is daubed on all the tools and on the wrists of the researchers," says Hobbs.

The Soa Basin people use it as grazing land for cattle and water buffalo. Soon after we arrive at the Mata Menge dig site, a man rides up on horseback to check us out, waving as he sees we are with the well-known archaeologist.

The dark rock near the site is sprinkled with white pieces of stegodon bone. And if you know what you're looking for, it is possible to pick up an ancient stone tool from the ground.

Verhoeven dug there first. And the Australian and Indonesian researchers have now excavated an area about 15 by 10 metres, as well as many other sites in the basin.

The region is an archaeological treasure chest because lava has periodically blocked the exit of the river, creating a lake which allowed sediments to settle in a layer cake effect.

From this dirt, a lost world of strange creatures has been revealed. "We've pulled out full stegodons with tusks four metres long," says Hobbs.

The team has identified four periods in the past million years when the basin was dry. About 900,000 years ago, pygmy stegodon, giant tortoises and komodo dragons - but no humans - wandered the land. By 850,000 years ago a new batch of large stegodon had swum to the island and lived in the basin with dragons and giant rats. The early humans arrived and left their stone tools in the lakeless period between 800,000 and 700,000 years ago. And today, the basin is dry again.

Morwood's team's discovery that Homo erectus had made it to Flores by 800,000 years ago implied these archaic humans were much smarter than had been thought, and it was controversial scientific news when published in 1998.

The stretches of water they crossed on the way from Java are very deep and treacherous. While we were on Flores an experienced local diver drowned, swept away in the strong currents between Flores and Komodo Island, where the dragons roam.

The intrepid Homo erectus mob that made it to Flores must have been able to talk, work as a group and build sea craft, Morwood argues. "'It wasn't just a pregnant woman on a log," adds Hobbs.

When the 2000 season in the Soa Basin was finished, the Australian researchers decided to take a look at Liang Bua, where an Indonesian team led by Professor Radien Soejono had dug between 1978 and 1989.

Hobbs says it was the neighbouring cave - Liang Galang - that convinced him the hobbit cave was a promising site. To show us this spot, Mangga suddenly breaks off from the track to Liang Bua, and heads up the hill, hacking away at the thick scrub. The small entrance is hidden by creepers, but once inside the cave, the floor drops steeply away, down about 15 metres.

"It meant Liang Bua could be very deep, too," says Hobbs, adding "We've not hit bedrock yet."

The hobbit cave is special because it has a lip along the front that allowed sediments to build up slowly and evenly as water flowed through the cave over millenniums, locking in the remains of those who lived and died there.

The Australians teamed up with researchers from the Indonesian Centre for Archaeology in Jakarta and have been digging each year since. It is hard, hot, tiring work, day after day, month after month. But the cave provides a cool spot for an afternoon sleep - something the hobbits probably appreciated.

Evenings are spent in a basic hotel in Ruteng, reviewing the day's find, a life, Morwood says, he savours; "I really like the people on Flores," he says.

Hobbs says his main concern when everyone is in the cave is that a sudden earthquake could bring down the huge stalactites from the roof, which may well have been the fate of the hobbits.

Morwood's team developed expertise in excavating quickly to depth with picks and shovels, and shoring up the hole against a cave-in.

The team thought they would find modern humans, Homo sapiens, in Liang Bua. But as they dug in the centre of the cave in 2001 they came across the radius of a forearm and a toe bone that were clearly not modern. Hobbs recalls shouting excitedly: "We've got it. And it's archaic."

Dating experts Bert Roberts, of Wollongong University, and Jack Rink, of McMaster University in Canada, flew straight to Flores to take samples.

In the 2002 season little material of note was uncovered. But last year the team hit paydirt at a spot near the left hand wall, facing into the cave.

The Australians had left in August when their visas ran out. But Dr Thomas Sutikna, from the Jakarta centre, and his team kept on digging. In September, 5.9 metres down, they uncovered the skull and bones of a 30-year-old woman who died 18,000 years ago.

"It is very tiny and we are thinking it is the skull of a child. It is very soft and fragile and we can't touch it straight away," recalls Sutikna. It took great care and expertise to remove the moist, tissue-paper like remains, says Morwood.

Once they were safely in Jakarta, University of New England bone expert Professor Peter Brown rushed over. When he saw the remains of the little woman, "my jaw dropped to my knees", he says.

This year the team recovered the woman's long arms and bits of other hobbits, to make a total of seven little hominids in all. They also came across an area where stegodon had been butchered, and they found evidence of fire use.

The Liang Bua dig is part of a much bigger project funded with a $800,000 Australian Government Discovery grant to understand the archaeology and past climate on either side of the Wallace Line. This is an imaginary line that separates islands to the west, such as Java, that were joined to the Asian mainland by land bridges at times of low sea level, and those to the east, like Flores, that have always been isolated from both Asia and Australia.

Hobbs and Dr Chris Turney, of the University of Wollongong, are studying the chemical signatures and dates of samples of volcanic ash from sites around Flores to try to fathom the island's volcanic past.

Kira Westaway, also from Wollongong, is studying the history of the environment and how the river terraces and caves were formed; she must climb high in the caves to take cores from the stalactites.

Dr Carol Lentfer, of Southern Cross University, uses pollen and other plant evidence of past climate in sediments and on stone tools from the area to get a better picture of the hobbits' world. She may even be able to get DNA from the tools, which could reveal who used them and what they slaughtered. "It might turn out that modern humans were killing the hobbits," she says.

Early next year the team will return to a limestone cave in east Java, called Song Gupuh, where animal remains and tools dating back 35,000 years have been found. They will dig in Sulawesi, steering clear of the troubles in the north by concentrating on sites in the south. Morwood says it is likely other dwarfed or giant animals, including hominids, could be found here, too.

And they will return to Flores. Apart from digging for more bones in Liang Bua, they will also explore other caves on the island, including one near Boawae, at the base of Gunung Ebulobo, where folklore has it that hobbit-like hairy people, called Ebu Gogo - who ate everything they could get their hands on, including the villagers' babies - lived on the mountain long ago.

Source

And a nice gallery of images of Flores, etc.
 
The people that time forgot

December 13, 2004



Discovered by Australian and Indonesian scientists, the new human species was just a metre tall and believed to have eaten small elephants. Deborah Smith goes in search of the lost hobbits of Flores.

When Australian archaeologist Douglas Hobbs arrives in the hot and steamy valley on the Indonesian island of Flores where the new human species was found, word gets around quickly. Within moments, farmer Rikus Bandar and his youngest son Agustinus Mangga come running from different directions out of their fields of coffee, rice and corn.

It is their first chance to talk with one of the discovery team since the news broke in October that put their large limestone cave, Liang Bua, on the international map. Then, it was revealed that Australian and Indonesian scientists had dug up skeletons of Homo floresiensis, dubbed "hobbits", that stood only a metre tall.

The scientists found the first skeleton in the cave in September 2003. The one-metre-tall female, aged about 30, lived about 18,000 years ago. Six similar skeletons were later found, some of whom lived in the cave 13,000 years ago. The scientists have speculated that the species may have lived on Flores until the 16th century.

They were dark and hairless with sunken eyes, a flat nose, large teeth, a protruding mouth and no chin. Despite having a small brain, the scientists believe the species could cook, hunt large prey and build rafts.

Family members, young and old, crowd into Bandar's small bamboo hut. Over a thick brew of coffee, they express their surprise that in the month since the scientific announcement more than 25 people from as far afield as Sweden and England have made the journey to the sleepy village because of the find.

They proudly show Hobbs a newspaper article from Jakarta that has grainy photographs of them. The father and son are no longer just ordinary farmers on this remote island - they are also now the guardians of one of the most famous caves on Earth.

Bandar and Mangga hold the keys to the gate of the large limestone shelter around the corner from the hut where apparently, for at least 80,000 years, humans a metre tall with pot bellies and very long arms took refuge from the heat and feasted on mini elephants.

It is thought the hobbits lived on Flores - one of the world's most geologically unstable areas with 13 active volcanos - until they were wiped out by a volcanic eruption 12,000 years ago. To get to the cave it takes a slow, four-hour climb in a good car along the narrow, twisting road from the west coast of the predominantly Catholic island to the closest hill town, Ruteng.

Making the 14-kilometre descent on a bumpy side road to Liang Bua takes another hour. The big chunks of ancient coral seabed dotted between the trees on the way down give the first clue that something unusual is ahead.

For decades Bandar has helped local archaeologists who made the trek there. For the past four winters he has also acted as foreman for the Australian and Indonesian team - led by Professor Mike Morwood, of the University of New England (UNE), that discovered the new human species - organising villagers to help them dig for fossils each year.

One day, Liang Bua could be the jewel in the crown of a new tourism industry for the impoverished island, but for now there is not much to see inside the 30-metre wide cave, except for two sticks that record the spots where hobbit bones were found. Any of its remaining attractions lie protected beneath hundreds of tonnes of dirt until the scientists return next year.

The Australian end of the hobbit story began a decade ago in the Kimberleys in Western Australia. Morwood and Hobbs were on a dig together when conversation turned to the big questions about our continent: when, why and how did the first people arrive in Australia 50,000 or so years ago.

They knew pottery had been left scattered on the Kimberley coastline by Indonesian seafarers who came between 1720 and 1900 to collect sea cucumbers. It set them wondering whether ancient humans might have used the same currents and sea routes to travel south.

"So we hired a boat and went sailing in the shallow Arafura Sea," says Hobbs. Most importantly, during the journey they turned their attention to Flores. The sea routes used by the Indonesian sailors passed by this tropical island, colonised in the 16th century by the Portuguese, who gave it its name: Cabo das Flores, or Cape of Flowers.

The Dutch followed the Portuguese. And among those priests who successfully set about converting the locals to Catholicism last century was Father Theodor Verhoeven, who also happened to be a keen archaeologist.

Verhoeven dug at many sites across Flores in the 1950s and '60s, including the hobbit cave, which he also used as a classroom. "He would walk around wondering what was under his feet," says Hobbs.

Morwood was able to find some scientific papers the priest had published in obscure Dutch and German journals that outlined his discovery of stone tools and an extinct type of elephant known as a stegodon in a valley called the Soa Basin.

While his colleagues dismissed Verhoeven as just an enthusiastic amateur, Morwood took a punt and headed to Flores in 1995. At a site called Mata Menge in the Soa Basin, that has since been dated to 840,000 years old, he found stone tools in clear association with stegodon bones.

It was a major find. It meant archaic humans, Homo erectus, had been able to cross the treacherous ocean channels from Java and make it to the remote island a very long time ago.

On the Earth's timescale, Flores was created yesterday. It is only about 40 million years old, while north Australia is more than 2 billion years old. As the tectonic plate our ancient continent sits upon has slowly drifted northwards, it has collided with the Eurasian plate, sliding down under it and pushing the land upwards to form the island.

Flores also sits over a hotspot, resulting in regular volcanic eruptions and earthquakes. One severe shake and ensuing tsunami destroyed the town of Maumere in 1992, killing more than 2500 people.

There is no forgetting these facts on the trip to Mata Menge. The road from the nearest big town, Bajawa, carves its way down the side of an ancient crater left by a volcanic explosion. The smell of sulphurous gas, venting from deep below the Earth's surface, wafts through the thick undergrowth.

Unusual looking, large black boulders lie on the steep hillside, the weathered remains of the centre of an ancient lava flow. At the bottom, local people bathe and play in the boiling hot springs that bubble out of the ground at the village where we set off on the 2.5 kilometre walk through the heat to the Mata Menge dig site.

The 35-kilometre-wide Soa Basin is circled by mountains and volcanoes. Looming ominously to the south is Gunung Ebulobo, still active, steam belching out of the top of its 2100-metre perfectly-shaped cone.

Morwood's stone tool find at Mata Menge in 1995 secured his team a three-year grant from the Australian Research Council, which he was able to stretch out to five years with some deft juggling of exchange rates.

The Australians have a philosophy of drawing on the expertise of scientists from many disciplines as well as joining forces with Indonesian experts. The studies in the Soa Basin have been a collaboration with the Indonesian Geological Research and Development Centre, led by Dr Fachroel Aziz. The scientists also try to involve villagers as much as possible so the research benefits the people of Flores, says Hobbs.

In this friendly society, where Christianity has been transplanted onto a tradition of animism and ancestor worship, the people like to sacrifice a chicken or a pig before each excavation begins, to examine the entrails and celebrate with a feast and some palm wine.

"Blood is daubed on all the tools and on the wrists of the researchers," Hobbs says.

The people who live in the Soa Basin use it as a rangeland for their cattle and water buffalo. Soon after we arrive at the Mata Menge dig site, a man rides up on horseback to check us out, waving as he sees we are with the well-known archaeologist.

The dark rock near the site is sprinkled with white pieces of stegodon bone. And if you know what you're looking for, it is possible to pick up an ancient stone tool from the ground.

Verhoeven dug there first. The Australian and Indonesian researchers have now excavated an area about 15 by 10 metres, as well as numerous other sites in the basin.

The region is an archaeological treasure trove because lava has periodically blocked the exit of the river running through it, creating a lake that has allowed sediments to settle in a layer-cake effect.

From this dirt, a lost world of strange creatures has been revealed. "We've pulled out full stegodons with tusks four-metres long," says Hobbs.

The team has identified four periods in the past million years when the basin was dry. About 900,000 years ago, pygmy stegodon, giant tortoises and komodo dragons - but no humans - wandered the land.

By 850,000 years ago a new batch of large stegodon had swum to the island and lived in the basin with dragons and giant rats.

The early humans arrived and left their stone tools in the lakeless period between 800,000 and 700,000 years ago. And today, the basin is dry again.

Morwood's team's discovery that Homo erectus had made it to Flores by 800,000 years ago implied these archaic humans were much smarter than had been thought, and it was controversial scientific news when published in 1998.

The stretches of water they would have had to cross on the way from Java are very deep and treacherous. While we were on Flores, an experienced local diver drowned, swept away in the strong currents between Flores and Komodo Island, where the dragons still roam wild.

The intrepid Homo erectus mob that made it to Flores must have been able to talk, work as a group and build sea craft, Morwood argues. "It wasn't just a pregnant woman on a log," adds Hobbs.

When the 2000 season in the Soa Basin was finished, the Australian researchers decided to take a look at Liang Bua, where an Indonesian team led by Professor Radien Soejono had dug between 1978 and 1989.

Hobbs says it was the neighbouring cave - Liang Galang -that convinced him the hobbit cave was a promising site.

To show us this spot, Mangga suddenly breaks off from the track to Liang Bua, and heads up the hill, hacking away at the thick scrub. The small entrance is hidden by creepers, but once inside the cave, the floor drops steeply away, down about 15 metres.

"It meant Liang Bua could be very deep too," says Hobbs, adding, "We've not hit bedrock yet."

The hobbit cave is special because it has a raised lip along the front that has meant sediments built up slowly and evenly as water flowed through the cave over the millenniums, locking in the remains of those who lived and died there.

The Australians teamed up with researchers from the Indonesian Centre for Archaeology in Jakarta and have been digging each year since. It is hard, hot, tiring work, day after day, month after month. But the cave provides a cool spot for an afternoon sleep, something the hobbits probably appreciated.

Hobbs says his main concern when everyone is in the cave is that a sudden earthquake could bring down the huge stalactites from the roof, which may well have contributed to the fate of the hobbits.

Morwood's team has developed expertise in excavating quickly to depth with picks and shovels, and shoring up the hole against a cave-in.

The team thought they would find modern humans, Homo sapiens, in Liang Bua. But as they dug down in the centre of the cave in 2001 they came across the radius of a forearm and a toe bone that were clearly not modern. Hobbs recalls shouting excitedly. "We've got it. And it's archaic."

Dating experts, Professor Bert Roberts of the University of Wollongong and Professor Jack Rink of McMaster University in Canada, flew straight to Flores to take samples.

In the 2002 season, little material of note was uncovered. But in 2003, the team hit paydirt at a spot near the left-hand wall, facing into the cave.

The Australians had gone home in August when their visas ran out. But Dr Thomas Sutikna, from the Jakarta centre, and his team kept digging. In September, at 5.9 metres down, they uncovered the skull and bones of a 30-year-old woman who died 18,000 years ago.

"It is very tiny and we are thinking it is the skull of a child," recalls Sutikna. "It is very soft and fragile and we can't touch it straight away."

It took great care and expertise to remove the moist, tissue paper-like remains, says Morwood.

Once they were safely in Jakarta, UNE bone expert Professor Peter Brown rushed over. When he saw the remains of the little woman, "my jaw dropped to my knees", he says.

This year the team recovered the woman's long arms as well, and bits of other hobbits, to make a total of seven small hominids in all. They also came across an area where a stegodon had been butchered, and found evidence of fire use.

But in a development that has outraged the Indonesian and Australian team, the remains of all seven hobbits have been removed from Jakarta by a leading Indonesian palaeanthropologist, Professor Teuku Jacob, to his own laboratory in Gadjah Mada University in Jogjakarta. Although long retired, Soejono, who still wields influence, insisted he take them, although this is in breach of an agreement between UNE and the Jakarta centre. Jacob, who has claimed the skeleton is not a new species but the remains of a small human related to a local pigmy population, has signed an agreement to return them by January 1, but Brown is sceptical he will honour it.

"It should never have happened," he says.

The Liang Bua dig is part of a much bigger project funded with an $800,000 Australian Government Discovery grant to understand the archaeology and past climate on either side of the Wallace Line. This is an imaginary line separating islands to the west, such as Java, which were joined to the Asian mainland by land bridges at times of low sea level, from those to the right, such as Flores, which have always been isolated from both Asia and Australia.

Hobbs and Dr Chris Turney of the University of Wollongong are studying the chemical signatures and dates of samples of volcanic ash from sites around Flores to try and fathom the island's volcanic past.

Kira Westaway, also from Wollongong, is studying the history of the environment, and how the river terraces and caves were formed, which sees her having to climb high in the caves taking cores from the stalactites.

Dr Carol Lentfer, of Southern Cross University, uses pollen and other plant evidence of past climate in sediments and on stone tools from the area to get a better picture of the hobbits' world. She may even be able to get DNA from the tools, which could reveal who used them and what they slaughtered.

"It might turn out that modern humans were killing the hobbits," she says.

Early next year the team will return to a limestone cave in east Java, called Song Gupuh, where they have found animal remains and tools dating back 35,000 years.

They will dig in Sulawesi, steering clear of unrest in the north by concentrating on sites in the south. Morwood says it is likely that other dwarfed or giant animals, including hominids, could be found on this island, too.

And they will return to Flores. Apart from digging for more bones in Liang Bua, they will explore other caves on the island, including one near Boawae, at the base of Gunung Ebulobo, where folklore has it that hairy hobbit-like people called Ebu Gogo, who ate everything they could get their hands on, including villagers' babies, lived on the mountain long ago.

Source
 
Scientist to study Hobbit morphing

Anna Salleh
ABC Science Online


Friday, 17 December 2004



A key hobbit researcher will study the strange evolutionary changes that happen on islands to help explain how the Hobbit came to be so tiny.

He also hopes studying old bones from pygmy humans and animals that eevolved on islands will put to rest claims that Hobbits are related to existing pygmies alive today.

On 3 January 2005, Associate Professor Peter Brown of the University of New England will leave for a six-week study of pygmy bones in European and U.K. fossil collections.

Brown wants to try and explain how Homo floresiensis came to be so small when the only other candidates for its ancestor were much larger.

All small animals get bigger and all big animals get smaller, Brown said.

Since Flores is an island, Brown is exploring the theory that H. floresiensis could have dwarfed from a bigger ancestor as a result of isolation there.

So far no possible ancestors have been found on Flores. And when looking at the anatomical features of the Hobbit, scientists are getting an odd picture.

A puzzling picture

The Hobbit's skull, teeth and jaw suggest it was most likely descended from H. erectus, said Brown.

But its long arms, which were uncovered after the main skeleton, and the brain size are more Australopithecine-like. And the hands are like those of the Homo genus.

Brown thinks that this puzzling combination of features may be a result of what happens when creatures get isolated on islands for thousands of years.

"It may have these long arms as part of the dwarfing process, because when animals dwarf they don't just become small versions of big ones," he said. "All sorts of very strange things happen."

He said that when deer, goats and sheep dwarf, their eyes move from the side of the head to the front, because they do not have to be as alert to predators.

"So we know environment has an impact but whether it can have this much of an impact is the kind of thing I'm interested in," said Brown.

To explore his theory, he will study bones of pure pygmy humans, including island and rainforest-dwelling ancestors of some groups who still live today in the Andaman Islands in India, and in Africa.

"I want to compare the adaptations in their skeletons with the adaptations in H. floresiensis," said Brown who remains open to the idea it evolved from Australopithecine.

"You don't rule anything out."

One of the simple questions he hopes to answer is whether people who lived in rainforest environments had relatively long arms.

He also wants to firmly exclude the idea that Hobbits are simply a contemporary pygmy.

Pygmy elephants

Brown will also be looking at bones over many thousands of years from animals that have dwarfed on islands, such as elephants once found on the Mediterranean islands of Malta and Crete.

African elephants around 3 metres tall at the shoulder swam to the islands and within 5000 years they were waist-high, said Brown.

This is the fastest dwarfing known. Grazing animals like deer and goats typically took hundreds of thousands of years to do the same thing.

He hopes studying such dwarfing may give him some insight into whether the sorts of things happening on Flores are within the range of what's happened elsewhere in other species.

Brown will also study primate bones to confirm the classification of the hobbit in the genus Homo.

Sick humans?

Brown also hopes to collect evidence for any future paper refuting the theory the Hobbit is just a sick human with microcephaly, a defect that results in a small brain.

"I'll be looking at abnormal pathologically small people with a range of growth and development disorders that can result in people with small brains," he said.

He says the strongest evidence against microcephaly is that there are seven individual hobbits with the same features, including one skull and the remains of two jaws of the same shape.

"We have a population that makes any arguments about pathology even stupider than they were to begin with," he said.

"You don't have a cave full of 30-year-old microcephalics happily bonking away and making babies for God's sake. It's just a complete nonsense. It doesn't happen."

Source
 
Oooooooo I missed this one - its a bit better than that rather poor early reconstruction:

Hobbit wielded big tools, clay model shows

Anna Salleh
ABC Science Online


Friday, 10 December 2004


A clay sculpture of a mature female Hobbit is helping to convince an Australian scientist the small people of Flores could have handled large tools.

Environmental archaeologist Dr Carol Lentfer will show the sculture at the Australian Archaeological Association conference at the University of New England next week.

"I've just finished it. It's just been fired," the Southern Cross University researcher told ABC Science Online.

"I allowed for shrinkage and I've done the measuring and it's shrunk to life-size."

Lentfer made the model out of Raku clay, a coarse clay commonly used for large sculptures, and based it on her handling of a replica of the Hobbit skull along with published descriptions of the skeleton.

The model, which has a receding chin and protruding brow ridge above the eyes, was also based on existing artists' drawings of the Hobbit, and of the 1.8 million-year-old Homo georgicus, similar to the type of hominin believed to have evolved into the Hobbit.

"It's been a lot of fun building it," said Lentfer, who has worked for three years at the Liang Bua site and elsewhere on the Indonesian island of Flores, and has research links with the scientists who discovered the Hobbit bones.

Some scientists question whether certain tools found alongside Hobbit bones were too big for the small people to handle.

Lentfer said she built the sculpture so she could get an idea of whether this true.

"I just wanted to get a feel for the small hominin that was reputably holding these stone tools."

She was particularly interested in how the Hobbits would have handled large cobbles, or flattened stones about 25 centimetres round, found at the site, which were thought to have been used as grinders, pounders or choppers.

"The Hobbits were no bigger than a five-year-old child," she said, referring to published data.

"A five-year-old child would have trouble carrying these big rocks.

"But having built the model according to the dimensions, I feel they could have easily handled the larger tools that I have."

She said based on the information available to her, the mature Hobbit appeared to be more robust than a human child.

Lentfer, who has a background in ecology, zoology, botany and archaeology, and is an artist with experience in ceramics, emphasises the model is "more of an artistic reconstruction rather than a strictly scientific one". But she based it on set of professional criteria used for palaeontological reconstructions.

Lentfer also has a Australian Research Council grant through the University of Queensland, where she will be working closely with residues expert Dr Tom Loy, to analyse evidence of plants and animals on tools from the Liang Bua site.

When she analysed stone tools about 13,000 to 15,000 years old from the site, she found residues of blood, bone collagen and scratches made by scraping tools against bone.

These tools, which were made from volcanic rocks, were used to butcher animals, said Lentfer. But other tools show evidence of starch grains and other plant residues.

"This tells us that that the Hobbit was processing starchy plants at the site as well as butchering meat."

Source (some nifty pics too).
 
For those of you curious about what the creationists are saying, here is some information:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/1028dwarf.asp

Soggy dwarf bones

An Indonesian island reveals the existence of an extinct group of pygmy humans

by Carl Wieland, Australia

For an update on this fascinating find, please see Hobbling the Hobbit?, posted 8 November 2004.

28 October 2004

Homo floresiensis. That’s the scientific name given to skeletal remains just discovered on the Indonesian island of Flores.1 The name implies that they belong to a different species from people living today, Homo sapiens.

The researchers found the skull and part of the rest of the skeleton of what might be a female, plus bones and teeth from at least seven other individuals. From preliminary reports, this relative of ours (a term used in some of the articles on the find) was only about one metre (3’4”) tall!

There is every reason to believe that assigning a separate species name is not justified at all. These remains, despite their smallness, give every indication of humanity. The site gives evidence of the controlled use of fire, and shows that they made sophisticated stone tools. There is evidence that they hunted the pygmy elephants on the same island. And of course, the question arises of how they reached the island. It would suggest that these people or their ancestors had substantial seafaring skills.

Interestingly, the bones, found in a cave, were apparently not fossilized (mineralized), and due to the damp climate had the consistency of ‘wet blotting paper’. One would think that given this, long-agers would themselves get a bit wary about the ages assigned to them. (The youngest ‘date’ for the bones themselves is said to be 18,000 years, ranging to more than 38,000, though stone tools have been ‘dated’ such as to indicate that the date of occupation of their settlement ranged back to 800,000 years ago).

The remains have many features strikingly similar to Homo erectus, which we have also long maintained is really just a variety of Homo sapiens. The researchers who discovered the Flores bones apparently think that they are dwarfed descendants of Homo erectus. We would agree.

‘Progressive creationists’ who follow the teachings of Hugh Ross would seem to be in a dilemma. If they admit that these individuals were humans, i.e., descendants of Adam, they would have to reject the hundreds of thousands of years in the above datings of tools. They have shown themselves unwilling to accept the humanity of Homo erectus (see Skull wars: new ‘Homo erectus’ skull in Ethiopia and the response to a critic), presumably because the whole reason for long-age ‘reinterpretations’ of the Bible depends upon the supposed validity of secular dating methods. And having rejected erectus as human, it might be embarrassing to hold a contrary position on such miniature versions of erectus.

If, however, these specimens are to be written off in the usual Rossist approach as ‘soulless non-humans that look a bit like humans’, it raises the awkward question of non-humans doing all those things mentioned, that only humans do today.2 It seems much simpler and more consistent to accept that these were descendants of Adam, part of the post-Babel dispersion.

So how do they happen to be so diminutive? We have written much about natural selection and adaptation as non-evolutionary realities (see Q&A: Natural Selection). The same forces and genetic pressures can apply to human populations. Islands have long been known as places where special adaptive pressures are rife. For example, the loss of wings in birds and beetles, detrimental elsewhere, becomes an advantage on a small windswept island where to fly means risking being blown out to sea (see Beetle bloopers: Even a defect can be an advantage sometimes).

There are also many instances of mammals becoming a dwarf or pygmy variety on islands. A classic example is the 1-metre high fossil elephants on Sicily and Malta—and indeed, the pygmy elephants these dwarf humans hunted! These may well have arisen because places with limited resources favour the transmission of already-existing genes which consume less of those resources—e.g., the genes for ‘smallness’.

Even a mutational stunting, like some hereditary instances of dwarfism today, might be favoured in such a situation and come to dominate a population. Such losses of information, and genetic shifts based on existing genes, are of course not evidence for ‘goo-to-you’ evolution, which relies on the continual appearance of creative genetic novelty. Stunting of humans, and shuffling/culling groups of genes by selection, gives no evidence of such a process.
Small brains, big achievements

The brain of ‘Flores Man’ (or should that be Flores Woman?) was significantly smaller than that of modern humans, even when their body size is taken into account. But interestingly, some of the tools appear to be so sophisticated that even some evolutionists are speculating that perhaps modern humans ‘dropped in’ to the island and left them behind! It reminds us of the fact that brain size and intelligence do not correlate well. Less likely, but possible, is that the ancestors of Flores Man not only made the sea journey to this island, but made the more sophisticated tools, and generations later we are seeing their mutationally degenerate offspring.
Conclusion

In short, the discovery is exciting and interesting. Evolutionists are surprised and astonished by it. However, they will doubtless find ways to fit it into their ever-flexible evolutionary framework, even using it to reinforce evolutionary notions. The Flores discovery fits very nicely into a biblical view of history. But it seems somewhat awkward, to put it mildly, for those who attempt to marry the millions of years and the Bible (see also Refuting Compromise ch. 9).3

Finally, the quite unfossilized, fragile condition of these bones should raise serious doubts in thoughtful people about the whole long-age framework. For more on this, see Q&A: Radiometric Dating and Q&A: Young Age Evidence.

For an update on this fascinating find, please see Hobbling the Hobbit?
Addendum
Some very short modern people:

According to the Guiness Book of Records website, the shortest-ever actress in a lead role was America’s Tamara de Treaux, who was 77 cm (2 ft 7 in) tall as an adult. Normally proportioned, she played ET in Steven Spielberg’s blockbuster. The Filipino paratrooper and black-belt martial arts exponent Weng Wang, who also starred in films and performs all his own stunts, measures just 83 cm (2 ft 9 in) tall. The shortest married couple were the Brazilian pair Douglas da Silva and Claudia Rocha. When they married in 1998, they were 90 cm (35 in) and 93 cm (36 in) respectively.

NOTE: We are not suggesting that the anatomical features of the Flores woman were simply those of a (miniature) modern type human. They are those of a (miniature) Homo erectus, a variant of the modern type, but within the human kind (see also How different is the cranial-vault thickness of Homo erectus from modern man?). Like the evolutionist anthropologist Milford Wolpoff and his allies, who are also aware of the differences between H. erectus and H. sapiens, we are saying that Homo erectus (and thus also the Flores people) should really be classified as H. sapiens. The human kind/species had a greater range of variation than exhibited today.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/1108hobbit.asp

Hobbling the Hobbit?

Indonesian scientists reject the hype about “Flores Man”

by Carl Wieland, AiG–Australia

8 November 2004

This is a brief update to our article on “Flores man,” also nicknamed “The Hobbit” after one of Tolkien’s fantasy groups of quasi-humans. Those who have not yet done so are recommended to read the article titled Soggy Dwarf Bones.

This tiny 1m (3’4”) alleged evolutionary sensation was found on the Indonesian island of Flores and regarded as a “new species” of human (Homo floresiensis). It was said to be at least “18,000 years” old, with the site dated as up to “800,000.”

In a recent development, Indonesian scientists have strongly refuted many of the sensational evolutionary claims about Flores man (so called in spite of the fact that the skeleton was claimed to actually be that of a woman). The country’s influential Jakarta Post (JP) ran an article on 8 November 2004 titled “RI scientists refute Flores Man finding.” (RI = Republic of Indonesia.)

The article reports Dr. Teuku Jacob, a paleoanthropology professor from Gadjah Mada University, as saying:

“The skeleton is not a new species as claimed by these scientists, but simply a fossil of a modern human, Homo sapiens, that lived about 1,300 to 1,800 years ago.”

While acknowledging the small brain size (380 cc, less than that of a chimp) and obvious differences with typical modern humans, he apparently stated that the remains were those of a member of the “Australomelanesid race, which had dwelled across almost all of the Indonesian islands.”

Referring to the skeleton’s eye socket shape and hip bone curves, Jacob suggested that it was not of a woman at all, but a male who died aged around 30. Interestingly, he also criticized as unethical the action of the Australian scientists who announced the discovery. Both Jacob and Prof. Dr. R. P. Soejono, head of Indonesia’s National Archaeology Institute, said that the Australians should have involved them when making the announcement, especially considering that the Australian scientists were not there when the discovery was made. Soejono claimed that the work on Flores was actually started by Indonesian scientists in 1976, and forced to a halt by the 1997 Asian financial crisis.

Whether the refutation was influenced in part by “turf wars,” and/or national sensitivities, it is interesting that professional academic paleoanthropologists could have two such radically different views about both the identification and particularly the age of the same specimen. Certainly our view (that this is likely a miniature human being exhibiting part of the same range of post-Babel human variation as encompasses the larger so-called Homo erectus) is not harmed, if anything the opposite, by this Indonesian opinion.
The mysterious “little people”

The Indonesian comments about a pygmy Australomelanesian group of people is interesting in light of the many reports one used to hear from missionaries, mostly from the early part of last century and before, about what they often called “the little people.” These reports, mostly concerning far northern regions of Australia (hence closer to Indonesia) were of an allegedly distinct (but now no longer extant) population of very small humans, i.e., a group quite distinguishable from the local Aboriginals. Could at least some of these have been the same (or a closely related) people group as those whose skeleton has been found on Flores? Controversial Australian historian Keith Windschuttle recently published a definitive study on Australia’s short-stature tribes, referred to variously as Pygmies, Negritos, Tasmanoids, and Barrineans.1
negritos

A couple of photographs claiming to be of these people appear in the autobiographical book by Will and Marjorie Sharpe called What an Experience (Boolarong Publications, Esperance Western Australia, 1989, p. 9) and that page is shown here
.
But wait, there’s more...

The non-European in the bottom photo is clearly of normal skull-body ratio. An article in Britain’s Observer quotes Dr. Jacob as suggesting the abnormality known as microcephaly (in which a human is born with a lower brain size) was responsible for Flores man’s small brain/skull size.2 This is disputed by well-known human evolution authority, Britain’s Dr. Chris Stringer, who points out that Flores Man has other features, not just a reduced brain, distinct from the typical human today.


However, an item posted on 1 November by Anatomy Professor Maciej Henneberg gives significant support to the “Flores Man was a microcephalic” view.3 Henneberg is the Head of the Department of Anatomy at South Australia’s Adelaide University, and has studied human evolution for 32 years. He says that the dimensions of the face, nose and jaws do not differ significantly from those of modern humans, unlike the very small braincase. He says, “The bell rang in my head” as he recalled a Minoan period human skull from Crete, which has long been identified as that of a microcephalic. Prof. Henneberg says that doing a statistical comparison of the two skulls (using the meticulous dimensions provided on the Nature website) “shows that there is not a single significant difference between the two skulls though one is reputedly that of the ‘new species of human’, the other a member of a sophisticated culture that preceded classical Greek civilisation.”

Henneberg also says that deeper down in the same cave on Flores, a radius (forearm bone) was discovered. Its length of 210 mm suggests that its owner was 151-162 cm (5’ to 5’3”) tall, well within the normal human range today. And probably consistent with a healthy, good-sized member of the “little people” as depicted in the photo above.

Interestingly, the JP news report also highlighted the same fact we did, namely that the specimen was not really fossilized (mineralized). This of course is more consistent with a much younger age for the skeleton than in the Nature announcement. Dr. Soejono was quoted as saying, “...we were able to find soft tissue so that we could carry out a DNA test. We couldn’t do that if it was already a fossil.” Interestingly, a media release posted by Australia’s Southern Cross University, on 8 November 2004, suggests that the Flores (or Liang Bua, as the site is also known) people may have inhabited the island up to about “500 years ago.”

I hope the DNA results are announced soon, and we await them with great interest. The more identifiable stretches of DNA that are present, the better. We would expect that the results will be consistent with the human identification. The very fact that DNA is still present in an unfossilized specimen is another indicator for a young age, much more likely to be in the ballpark of the figure cited by the Indonesian scientists than the one reported in Nature. (DNA is a fragile molecule that falls apart very quickly, as far as laboratory measurements are concerned—see Salty Saga.)
References

1. Keith Windschuttle and Tim Gillin, The extinction of the Australian pygmies, Quadrant, June 2002, <http://www.sydneyline.com/Pygmies%20Extinction.htm>. Return to text.
2. John Aglionby and Robin McKie, Hobbit folk “were just sick humans,” <http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1345519,00.html>. Return to text.
3. <www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/000884.html>Return to text.
 
Jeffery3: Welcome. Thanks for that - pretty standard fair and their arguement that it is Homo sapiens isn't that far from what some palaeoanthropologists think (although they haven't released any studies showing this and I'm unconvinced they can but we'll see) - they even give Wolpoff a hat tip there. The problem is that this find cause major problems for such theories and although there is plenty of room for the arguement to develop these finds are a serious problem for them.

This interests me as they appear to be saying that their stature is due to evolution (and evolutionary process that work on humans in the same way they work on animals to boot):

There are also many instances of mammals becoming a dwarf or pygmy variety on islands. A classic example is the 1-metre high fossil elephants on Sicily and Malta—and indeed, the pygmy elephants these dwarf humans hunted! These may well have arisen because places with limited resources favour the transmission of already-existing genes which consume less of those resources—e.g., the genes for ‘smallness’.

However the dwarf/pygmy vs endism issue was addressed in the oriignal publication.

I think an interesting aspect is their dispute with "Progressive Creationists".*


* spot the oxymoron!!!
 
Yes, these folks have always held that evolution has been possible in the sense that genetic information can be lost or "turned off", but not increased or gained. As we know, however, the evolutionary hypothesis requires a gain or increase in genetic information in order to be validated. They are very careful not to equivocate the word in this sense, holding that observation of the first type is not evidence of the second.
 
Jeremy3 said:
Yes, these folks have always held that evolution has been possible in the sense that genetic information can be lost or "turned off", but not increased or gained. As we know, however, the evolutionary hypothesis requires a gain or increase in genetic information in order to be validated. They are very careful not to equivocate the word in this sense, holding that observation of the first type is not evidence of the second.

I'm unsure what that really means.

However, it is encouraging to see that even the Creationists have had to start accepting some kind of evolutionary theory.
 
What I mean is that creationists, or at least the folks at AiG, have always held that a genetic loss of information is possible. That kind of genetic evolution, however, has nothing to do with evolutionary "theory", which requires gains in genetic information.

Instead of trying to explain their creation model myself, I'll refer you to one of their articles that will explain it better:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... netics.asp
 
Jeremy3 said:
What I mean is that creationists, or at least the folks at AiG, have always held that a genetic loss of information is possible. That kind of genetic evolution, however, has nothing to do with evolutionary "theory", which requires gains in genetic information.

Instead of trying to explain their creation model myself, I'll refer you to one of their articles that will explain it better:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... netics.asp

Interesting stuff - this is both good and bad news.

Good news because in essence the Creationists have blinked. Its not a complete acceptance but it is more of a move in the right direction than I was expecting in my lifetime.

Its bad news because in some ways I had a grudging respect for their certainty and the fact that they were so staunchly anti-evolution now they are grasping at some kind of pseudo-evolution that they can accept. In some ways it reminds me of this sketch from Friends (which has important things to say about Science and about the problems which can occur when you lose sight of what science is all about - doubt, testing hypotheses, etc.):

Phoebe: Ok, Ross, could you just open your mind like this much, ok? Wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed that the world was flat? And, up until like what, 50 years ago, you all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open, and this like, whole mess of crap came out. Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?

Ross: There might be, a teeny, tiny, possibility.

Phoebe: I can't believe you caved.

Ross: What?

Phoebe: You just abandoned your whole belief system. I mean, before, I didn't agree with you, but at least I respected you. How, how, how are you going to go into work tomorrow? How, how are you going to face the other science guys? How, how are you going to face yourself? Oh! That was fun. So who's hungry?

www.angelfire.com/tv2/seaQuestDSV2032/Friends.html

But we are getting off topic now. ;)
 
Well, I'm not sure the folks at AiG have ever denied that losses of genetic information were possible, so I can't honestly say that their stance has ever changed.

I also admit having a respect for their certainty, as well as their consistency.
 
What we're seeing here are the subcultures within creationism. Like every other belief system, creationism has as many versions as it has adherents (or, in the case of belief systems that involve turning your will over to another individual in its entirety, as it has gurus). Only because we stand outside of the overall subculture does it look monolithic - just as UFOlogists, role-playing gamers, and ghosthunters appear to be simple, slightly stupid, subcultures to the average person whose knowledge is drawn entirely from Sunday supplements and broadcast media.

It is interesting that in the two articles quoted, the ideological target is not the scientists - whose data are being used because, hey, they produce data (unlike your average creation "scientist") - but the creationists who don't believe in the short timeline. This would include "intelligent design" creationists. Just as our worst fights occur within our own families, our most savage disputes can be found among those who essentially agree but differ in detail.

One thing we can be sure of - H. Floresiensis is not going to change the minds of any dedicated creationists, long-version or short-version. Creationism is unfalsifiable, since it starts with the answer and continually reconfigures the question to suit. When you come right down to it, God can create the world any way He/She/It wants. If your world view depends on God being as narrow and unimaginative as you are and creating the world only in ways that suit your mental limitations, no evidence will change that.
 
One thing we can be sure of - H. Floresiensis is not going to change the minds of any dedicated creationists, long-version or short-version. Creationism is unfalsifiable, since it starts with the answer and continually reconfigures the question to suit. When you come right down to it, God can create the world any way He/She/It wants. If your world view depends on God being as narrow and unimaginative as you are and creating the world only in ways that suit your mental limitations, no evidence will change that.

Be careful about that one. Creationists will say essentially the same thing about evolutionists. It's pretty much a useless assertion for either belief. Both beliefs start with presuppositions and interpret the evidence to fit their models. That alone doesn't make one belief more valid than another.

You have a point about the differing creationist beliefs. The six-day creationists certainly don't agree with the ID folks because of the common (more or less) belief they have with evolutionists concerning the age of the universe. There may also be creationists that don't believe in any kind of evolution at all, but I doubt there are very many because we can actually observe microevolution to at least some degree. I certainly never assumed that creationists (as a whole) ever rejected evolution completely.
 
Jeremy3 said:
Both beliefs start with presuppositions and interpret the evidence to fit their models.

Can you give an example of this please. I know its rife in many topics but most evolutionists I know of start with Darwin's The Origin of Species and work on from there.
 
Leaferne said:
Is anyone else enchanted with the notion of pygmy elephants?

Me - in fact I am quite taken with pygmy rhinos.

--------------
Tourism Rebounds on Island of "Hobbit" Fossil Find

By Jessie Johnston and Drew Mackie
for National Geographic Traveler
December 22, 2004

Picture a tropical island with three-foot-tall (one-meter-tall) locals, dolphin-size lizards, rabbit-size rats, and pygmy elephants, all coexisting in the shadows of active volcanoes. This was the island of Flores, Indonesia, thousands of years ago.

Modern-day Flores, an isle of small villages and crude infrastructure, never sought to be a major tourist attraction. But last October scientists announced a surprising discovery—the excavation of the 18,000-year-old remains of some of Flores's earliest inhabitants, a hobbit-like species of diminutive humans known as Homo floresiensis. (See pictures.) As a result, many now believe that Flores could be Indonesia's next travel hot spot.

Flores has generated headlines before, but not the kind that attract tourists: famines in the 1960s and natural disasters in the '70s and '90s. Economic crisis hit in the late '90s, followed by political problems in East Timor and Bali. By 2000 tourism had plummeted from 35,000 visitors a year to just 10,000.

This year, however, the Flores Tourist Authority reports that travel to the island has already rebounded by 21 percent, probably due to fossil-related media coverage.

Visiting Flores

Peter Paka, owner of Cita Travel Service, a Bali-based company that leads tours to Flores, noted a 1,000 percent increase in daily visits to his company's Web site immediately after the discovery was announced. "Flores" was the most searched subject on the site, he stated.

In response, Paka has peppered two of his itineraries with a day-trip to the site where the "hobbit" was unearthed.

Other companies offering travel to Flores include: Floressa Bali Tours, Asian Pacific Adventures, and A&S Travels.

Rates for these tours, which range from three to seven days, start from U.S. $400 to $2,250 per person. Prices cover transportation within Indonesia, accommodations, most meals, entrance fees, English-speaking guides, and drivers.

Despite Flores's newfound fame, visitors can expect to rough it once there. Poor infrastructure means a number of hotels don't offer showers. Most rooms come equipped with only a bed and a fan. And during the rainy season, the island's unpaved roads are often impassable.

Natural Attractions

A number of caves, most notably Liang Bua where the Homo floresiensis fossils were discovered, are open for tours. Liang Bua, which means "cold cave," is an impressive size—100 feet (30 meters) wide and over 130 feet (40 meters) deep.

Visitors must content themselves with the cave's limestone stalactite and stalagmite formations, however, since its famous fossils have been excavated and transported to Jakarta for further study.

Exotic creatures roam Flores, including dolphin-size Komodo dragons, the world's largest lizards. A four-hour boat ride from Labuhanbajo, on Flores's western tip, can also take visitors to see the reptiles on Komodo, the island for which the lizards are named.

Equally unique is Flores's giant rat population. The creatures resemble "large rabbits with long tails," said Richard Roberts. One of Indonesia's leading scientists, Roberts helped discover the Homo floresiensis fossils.

Flores also boasts fascinating geology. The island's main attraction has long been the trio of crater lakes atop the Keli Mutu volcano. Once vibrant shades of red, white, and blue, the lakes have changed color over time to aquamarine, red-brown, and black as a result of dissolving minerals and varying oxygen levels. A truck from the nearby village of Moni takes visitors up the mountain each day before sunrise.

Religious Customs

Local religious customs can still be observed throughout the predominantly Catholic island. In the Ngada District near the town of Bajawa, communities center on a pair of ceremonial structures, the Bhaga (a small hut) and the Ngadhu (a kind of thatched umbrella). The two represent the power of female and male ancestors.

Here and elsewhere in Flores, Christian ritual is combined with local tradition, including the Reba festival, an annual event in December, which kicks off with a Catholic mass followed by a procession of swordsmen or a deer hunt that doubles as a fertility and puberty rite.

Flores's newfound fame, combined with its many offerings, has local guides confident about the future of travel there. Paka, the Bali-based tour operator, said, "I feel there will be many people coming to Flores."

----------
The archaeological find will be featured in a National Geographic Channel program to air in early 2005.

Source
 
I had a grudging respect for their certainty and the fact that they were so staunchly anti-evolution now they are grasping at some kind of pseudo-evolution that they can accept.

Isn't that the essence of Intelligent Design? I was under the impression that was rehashed creationism which doesn't deny that what amounts to evolutionary change exists, but tries to claim that the change is a guided process rather than random mutation and natural selection.
 
Back
Top