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I need help

D

darrensix

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
22
I times of need I can think of no better place from which to seek help than the FT message board.

G8, debt relief, aid etc dominate the news at present. I cannot understand why Western Governments continue to impoverish and let down poorer nations based on neo-liberal ideas. I cannot understand why the West, especially the US, continues to be so belligerent, so undemocratic and seemingly so cruel.

Some people tell me it is all about power and that those in power want to protect their interests and extract more cash and resources for exploitation. But, what does a billionaire want with another billion? Why do the 'Americans' want all this oil? The oil is perhaps to keep American car drivers happy, but why bother?

I think it was Orwell that said the purpose of war is the continuation of war. But why? Who benefits? But, again I say, why bother going to all that trouble when you could just have a successful business making soap or something. Rumsfeld and the like will only live to enjoy the trapping of power and wealth for say 80 years, so why would someone like him be so keen to leave this kind of legacy?

I can understand more easily why a religious fundamentalist would act because they have faith in a higher cause. But, surely the hawks, World Bankers, Presidents and Prime Ministers can’t be acting out of some bizarre faith. Can they?

It must be true that there is a conspiracy of some kind, because I can't believe that the world is such a terrible place and that we are at the mercy of terrible leaders who go out of there way to cause harm. Perhaps the conspiracy involves us all in some way that we let terrible things happen. I see no hope, no light at the end of the tunnel. Can anyone tell me what’s going on?
 
Darrensix said:
I think it was Orwell that said the purpose of war is the continuation of war. But why? Who benefits?
Click to expand...

A big part of war is the justification of the billions spent on arms and weapons, if they cant use them they cant justify why they are needed.
 
I think the pseudo-liberalism that pervades 'Western' society fools people into thinking that there is some kind of magic solution that will cure all the woes of the world. Well, apart from the total abolishment of any kind of currency, borders and the enforcement of the purest of communist ideologies, it's just not going to happen.

It's really really nice when Bono and Bob Geldof stand there preaching about how wicked the 'West' is when we're not cancelling all the debt to impoverished nations. Ok guys, are you going to put your money where your mouth is and give up large portions of your personal assets to help out? But then it's not nice to say this kind of thing, because they're 'really nice blokes' and 'doing their best'. What they won't do is essentially what they're asking governments to do i.e. to simply write off large amounts of a nation's wealth. If a nation was truly 'wealthy' and populated entirely by billionaires, then yes, this would be feasible. But could a 'western' nation which cannot afford to provide decent medical to it's elderly or those on low or zero incomes justify diverting monies to a poor nation elsewhere on a premise of assumed responsibility for the poorer nations? How are people meant to feel when the money that they give to help poorer nations seems only to find its way into the pockets of dictators who will build themselves golden palaces and manage to magically find the money not long after to raise huge armies to exterminate their own people?

The real key to helping poorer nations is not to throw aid at them, but to teach them self-sustainability. To carry on giving them money is like throwing heroin at a junkie; it'll just disappear, and when it runs out, he'll demand more.
 
<nods>

I have had an idea; its called ECONOMISTAID

We will send our best financial people to these countries to make them a viable prposition for our hungry investors.

I am donating my own IFA.
 
It seems that the fundamental problem is that no matter how much aid we throw at a country they seem to find new and exciting polititians to embezzle it.

So, here is my plan. We initiate a policy of forcefully suggested reigeme change, establish a short-term government to oversee the re-building of the countries economy - hell why not build a few extra railways and oil-pipelines while we're at it - we've got plenty of companies to help us build them. Promote some ethenic guys who can see how to run a country properly into positions of power - then initiate presidential elections for those guys we've taught up.

Thats how we solve debt.
 
I agree....even though what we are talking about is an enlightened form of imperialism. If we are going down that route, I would suggest the Victorian British model (modernised natch ;) ).
 
Theres plenty of resources and plenty of Money to make the world a safer and fairer place, where all men and women need not starve to death on a daily basis.

Its just the Men and Women that have the means to bring this about get assasignated when ever they come to the foreground and start to anounce any plans or wishes.

The world is run by Greedy Power mad individuals who just wish to feather their own nests and have the latest 4x 4 and a huge house with a fridge full to the brim of more food than they could ever eat in a month let a lone a week.

Basically until the meek inherit the earth nothing will change for the good.
 
So now we are all going to be oppressed by liberals?

What happens in areas in which there isnt the resources to feeds people?
 
I don't know where the idea that this is 'neo-liberal' comes from.

Aside from that, I think people are tending to see it all as a black and white situation - greedy Westerners on one side, poor Africans etc. on the other. It's almost as if people imagine that bankers, etc. wake up every morning, cackle, rub their hands together and continue to think up nefarious plans for world domination. This is, of course, ridiculous. As is the notion of 'the Human Condition' as an arguement too IMHO.

First of all, the chronic situation within various nations in the 'developing world' are a result of both colonialism and the Cold War. Both of these have led to situations whereby economic instability has bred corruption and institutional neglect of any given country's infrastructure. Even in places like Africa, forced partition under colonialism created countries that simply weren't there before in such a rigidly formal way, and this created various friable sociatal pressures. As is this was a relatively recent occurance, as was colonialism itself, the whole landmass is still coming to terms with the effects, as are various other ex-colonies dotted around the globe.

Secondly, as we live in a liberal capitalist system (and by 'liberal' I don't mean the term in a humantarian sense, but an economic one - which is much different), the main drive is profit and competition which in itself has various spinoffs which you and I take advantage of. Yes, were all part of the problem. Various powerful nations have dug themselves and their populations into a hole somewhat WRT the way this system works, especially over the last 100 years or so. This has been so that there is a general level of stability and wealth for those in the West - the only problem is, the side effect of that is that it works for some people and not for others. The fact that you can buy cheap goods from various parts of the world is because various markets and systems are in place to ensure that they're cheap for you. But this system tends by it's very nature to work against poorer countries - not out of some sort of spite, but simply because the market value of the goods they produce is pegged at a price that doesn't bring any real benefits to anyone but the end user. Also, some of the Western nations have had to step into the gap in certain markets, i.e. rice, soya, etc. because demand dictated that they do so - because other poorer nations could not do so. This lead to a de facto dominance of those markets over time. This is why the US is the world's biggest exporter of rice, for example.

Whilst it may all seem as if the West is deviously trying to greedily suck up everything for it's own benefit, it's naiive to blame it just on the various figures in the leadership. In general, I think it would be safe to say that you enjoy your current standard of living and the various products you can buy. The problem is, because of that - and this is something the various leaders want to protect - it involves other people losing out. Take mobile phones, for example - useful aren't they? Are you lost without yours? Well, each mobile phone contains tantalum. This is sourced in Africa - Mozambique, for example. Mozambique was pretty much destroyed by war for decades, but after a ceasefire was declared it started to recover. However, when the mobile phone market boomed and the demand for tantalum increased. The end result being that fighting broke out again in Mozambique, but this time over the various tantalum mining franchises. And whilst it's true that the methodology of gaining such stability can be 'dirty', we're all partly to blame. That said, to make out that all of these nasty things are done simply as some sort of nefarious conspiracy by those in power is somewhat wide of the mark. Yes, they may want 'power' in terms of stability within their own countries, but so do you as an individual.

Hwoever, as were all part of the problem we're all part of the solution. Stuff like Live 8 is, IMHO one snowflake on the tip of the iceberg. We all need to change how we consume and bring that buying power to bear on those institutions and infrastructures that currently seem overtly exploitative. It won't be at all easy, but as a consumer you tend to have more power in the global market place than you do as a citizen with a vote.
 
So let me get this


Its all our faults
Its the faults of people from years and years ago when they were in power
and its a symptom of liberal capitalism

great chance the poor of the planet have then ;)

Humans are mean
and I would suggest that if you are right Jerry and I have no reason to argue with your view (for once) ;)

the poor are stuffed for good !!!!!
 
Within nature there is a food chain.There is also (IMO) a type of food chain within Human society itself.I dont find it hard to believe that there will always be some better off than others in a capitalist society.Whether this is right or wrong could be debated for a long time.Communisum would only work if we had no emotions which of course is not the case, hence why it doen't.So whats the solution? I have no idea. :?
 
One wonders whether developing countries would be better off in complete isolation - without our aid, but without our exploitation too.

Not that this is a realistic option anymore, if ever it was.
 
Sorry that I don't feel guilty. You can either see everything in political detail or you can see it as a whole. The reason some countries are doing better than others, let other people work for next to nothing, look out for their own...That is all natural.
Wars are fought throughout the animal kingdom. Animals even exploit their prisoners to hard labour [see certain ants]. Life is harsh, here in the west we have managed to keep this fact out of sight by surrounding ourselves with false security. We really believe that life should be safe and nice and that we have a right to be healthy, have our children survive etc. All this is is a facade, hiding nature.
Every now and then we can see reality rising its "ugly" head, when there is murder or violence etc. So we try and do our best to stop it by law etc.

You want to know what life is all about?
Here are some facts:
- There could be a new strain of a deadly virus hitting us tomorrow to which we have no antibodies or drugs. Regardless of your mobile phones and 4 x 4's you would die.
- Most people don't live at all like you see on TV and adverts. Those are made up and we are to believe that being like them is normal.
- We are all capable of killing each other in certain circumstances, regardless of the law.
- We could all starve to death if the crops on earth would be hit by bacteria that rendered them unusable.
- There is more violence in large cities because humans are not meant to live in such large groups. Therefore new tribes develop, called gangs and all they are doing is what they would have done hundreds and thousands of years ago.
Some countries were colonised and tricked by others, now they are paying dearly. Sad but not unnatural.

Please don't tell me that we are "human" and therefore should rise above those things. Impossible. Most people are still closer to our animal-self than others. I love it when the argument is made that "we have developed so much and invented xyz". It wasn't US, it was a small minority that had the brains to invent things, or make us more cultured. The rest of us is still as clueless as 1000's of years ago.
As I said somewhere else, only people with no real problems in their own life feel so distraught about other peoples problems. I for one can't afford to waste my emotions on others so far away that I don't even know that they are real. As a human I am not supposed to care for suffering so fare removed. Its highly unnatural. It gives you emotional overload and can lead to a nervous breakdown.
I forgot who started this thread [sorry, forgot to check before I wrote this] but I can see a person with emotional overload here. In a big way.
Chill out, look after yourself and your friends and family for a while without thinking too much about something you personally can't change if you tried. When you feel mentally strong again you could then start helping out for charities and slowly work your way up.

I need dental treatment badly but can't afford it, no NHS surgery nearby and the teeth in the back of my mouth are crumbling one by one. I am still young, attractive and fear loosing more teeth. Does anyone here give a shit and wants to help me?
Thought not.
 
Painy said:
Darrensix said:
I think it was Orwell that said the purpose of war is the continuation of war. But why? Who benefits?
Click to expand...

A big part of war is the justification of the billions spent on arms and weapons, if they cant use them they cant justify why they are needed.
Click to expand...

Google for: "Military Industrial Complex".

Dingo666 said:
Please don't tell me that we are "human" and therefore should rise above those things. Impossible. Most people are still closer to our animal-self than others.
Click to expand...

I could write an awful lot here but i'm not sure how fruitful it would be. In short i'll have to let you down (Dingo) and say that i do believe we should rise above such things as far as is possible. Obviously there are basic operations of nature over which we have no control but, in general, Human Consciousness has granted us a fair degree of sovereignty (unprecedented in the Animal Kingdom) over our 'animal' urges, instincts, and other mental functions and using it is what distinguishes us as Human and not merely shaved apes.

We can't wholly cast-off the vestments of our evolution (nor do i think this would be desirable even were it possible), but i make no apologies for advocating that we aim for the highest state imaginable, pretend we can, and then (at least) land in a tolerably nice world when we inevitably fall a distance short.

Even if i'm 100% wrong, not trying to better ourselves and our behaviour as a race and as a single planet is a pessimists prescription for stagnating here on our planet with constantly appeals to inevitability and nature whenever someone asks (each decade?) why nothng has improved with respect to starvation, equality, and unity.

I wonder: when the individual leaders of the G8/WTO/NATO (in their quietist moments) dream of mankind's distant future, do they dream of the wealthy part of the planet blasting off to fresh stellar pastures while those who've never seen a rocket starve on a rotting earth that crumbles around them? (Do politicians still dream?).
 
Comparisons to the animal kingdom are, IMHO, crass. We're not animals, no matter how much some misanthropists may think we are. We're much more in control of our lives and other people, for starters. We also have a particular societal structure which has various factors within (i.e. morals) simply do not have. Also, if we were just really animals, we would never have gotten to where we are now as a species - we'd either be extinct or wandering around in the wild.

What I wrote earlier was not saying strictly that it's all our own faults, but we do share in the responisbility. When people bang on about Iraq being all about oil, power and greed etc. they seem to be forgetting that all of us use oil in various different ways. Do people imagine that the oil is simply sucked out of Iraq and into some vast reserve somewhere just for the use of GWB and his cronies? Hardly. For example, when you read this forum you sit in front of a PC or Mac made from the products of the oil industry, amongst other things - so to a certain extent you have already bought into the oil trade and thus all of the repercussions that has for the world and for the people who live on it. You're part of the demand for oil that tends to fuel conflicts at the present time, so it's unwise to simply blame it all on a few hawks in Washington DC.

It's also not enough just to say 'humans are mean' and leave it at that - especially as it's not an argument. We all live in Western capitalist liberal economies, and expect a certain standard of living. But to have that we need certain things. If we don't have them, our societies would collapse. Political leaders know that - they want the society that they head to be wealthy and prosperous. Not out of 100% altruism but because, compared to the past, it ensures that there is some long term stability. The only problem is is that this system isn't entirely fair, for some sections of the population within those economies and those outside it. However, because this system relies on a market, which reflects what each person wants and expects, this doesn't mean that nothing can be done to get that system to work in a better way if it's at all possible.

We have to face facts and acknowledge that we live within a certain type of system and that we are partly repsonsible for how it works. It's not at all ideal, but it is possible to affect changes if enough is done to do so. Compared to previous forms of human societal construct, what we have now is better in terms for society at large and for the individual but there are still gaping holes that need to be filled. That said, slowly but surely that society is changing - teh acceptable mores of 100 years ago, i.e. the rights of colonial powers, are simply no longer tenable. Why? Because people made the changes needed, by hook or by crook and after some time the accepted norm changed. This is an ongoing process.

So to just focus on what's going on now in the world and say 'Oh woe' is somewhat blinkered. It also belies a lack of knowledge about history, economics and sociology. Yes, some things are crap - but that doesn't mean that they're situations that are set in stone and some sort of doom-laden marker for the future.
 
JerryB said:
So to just focus on what's going on now in the world and say 'Oh woe' is somewhat blinkered. It also belies a lack of knowledge about history, economics and sociology. Yes, some things are crap - but that doesn't mean that they're situations that are set in stone and some sort of doom-laden marker for the future.
Click to expand...

Largely in agreement with you Jerry.

My further point is that even were situations 'set in stone' it would still be worth struggling to change them no matter how futile it may seem. Why?

A) We may be suprised and learn they aren't as petrified as they first seemed.

B) It's in our nature as conscious beings to try and do and endeavour. Even the bitterest misnathrope can't hanker after life in a primordial soup or (more pertinently) a uncultivated barren war-torn land, when our striving Human Nature supplies us with the ingenuity and willpower to try an improve things.
 
Yes, although I tend to balk at phrases like 'in our nature'. Basically, if human beings are as nasty as some people think, we wouldn't be here discussing it. We simply wouldn't have developed to the point at where humans are now. Attempts to blame it all on 'human nature', etc. are just an attempt at turning a blind eye to things. We've gotten where we are today as a species because we've conciously elected to make changes - and that's an on-going process. And that process seems to be slowly developing in a way that is more 'altruistic', for want of a better term.
 
Wrong. We are but animals and believe that all our "morals" and "ethics" and technology are so special because animals appear not to have these.
Let me tell you that all we are doing and making and thinking is all due to the same old forces: procreation, eating and safety for ourselves and our tribe. No more.
I'll explain later.
Societal structures...nice try. Ants, Elephants, Penguins etc all have very well working societal structures. These even include altruism.
Why are we building houses?
So that we are safe.
What is the point of a car?
a) to get from A to B in a shorter time. Why is this necessary?
because it gives us an advantage either to be able to get more or better food or to impress the opposite sex.
Why do we have law?
So we are safe.
Why do we paint pictures?
Because we have time and want to express ourselves. Why do we need to express ourselves? Because we may not be allowed or not able to say the things we want. What good does this do? It makes us feel better. Why is that good? Because we can go on functioning without sitting depressed in a corner and die.
I could go on and on and believe me even poetry and philosophy only serves the most basic of our needs.
To make it short, if we had enough food, warmth, safety and a mate we would be happy even without cars, offices etc.
We only dress our needs in more and more complicated clothing and dilude ourselves that this makes us different from animals.
Yes it looks liek it at first but it is not, as a matter of fact it is worse. Animals don't NEED to do all the things we do because they are doing well the way they are doing things. I admire Aboriginies in Australia, the only humans I have respect for. Reason is that they don't think themselves better than nature but are a part of it. They have it sussed and they have it right. If everyone would live like them and pretend we are somehow better than nature we wouldn't have all these problems we are talking about now.
Humans that think they are above all are the bane of this poor planet.
 
Dingo666 said:
I could go on and on and believe me even poetry and philosophy only serves the most basic of our needs.
To make it short, if we had enough food, warmth, safety and a mate we would be happy even without cars, offices etc.
Click to expand...

So are 'food, warmth, safety, and sex' complete conditions for this ephemeral 'happiness' we seem to be doing an awful lot to arrive at.

Also, i think you omitted a little emoticon: :imo:
 
... i ask because any argument that claims happiness is desirable to us solely because it is the opposite to, and helps to stave off, depression is more than a little dubious.
 
I agree humans are animals. And we must remember that it isn't about being poor per se, but relative deprivation. In darkest africa (for example, village life) there is no need for mobile phones, central heating, double glazing or what have you...but in the west we look at 'our own poverty' as a deprivation of these type of things. So, what really needs to be done is establish what the basics are: and that is simply food, water and shelter. It is far more important to establish these, as they will in the short and medium term save more lives. After this, then we can look at sanitation, education and medication. But we must remember that with medicine comes longer life...thus more resources are need to feed an expanding population. Perhaps the poor are stuffed in certain respects.
 
Dingo666 - I care about your teeth on a National level. I hope that our government can come up with a plan that treats you fairly and that you can eventually get treatment on the NHS. Good luck.

I do not suffer from emotional overload and do not feel that because I care that other human being suffer that I will have a nervous breakdown - I have been closer to breakdown in times when I only worried about myself.

I feel that I have enough power in myself to understand ways that can eventually lead to many people benefiting from my efforts even if they are far away. However, people in need are never far away, certainly not in today's world.

The problems for us in the west, no matter how bad our teeth are, are generally less than in developing countries when we consider problems such as food shortage and how many people per head of population are effected. I think it is a sure bet that you had food and water today. I live in Ethiopia (working for DFID www.dfid.gov.uk), and there are millions here today that did not eat and did not have water. We can help those people. In fact, you probably could too.
 
Dingo666 - your comparisons only serve to point out that we as humans are similar to animals - but different. The difference is that if we were still acting purely as animals, as part of parcel of just being animals, we simply wouldn't be where we are today as a species. The fact that our conciousness appears to be diffrent to those of animals steers us along a different path than those of a purely animal existance.

The fact that, as humans, we strive to make the conditions in which we live better and want to understand what we are in relation to the world around and to each other - this is what sets us aside from animals. And thus what some would like to boil down to just survival in terms of how animals live hits very wide of the mark. As humans organised themselves in better ways through various societal structures, those structures themselves developed the means for us to improve upon what we already have. However, along the way, this has caused damage the environment in which we live and to other humans - however, this is not something which is set in stone. The societal conditions in which you live now are better than the ones you would have lived in 200 or even 100 years ago. Why? Because humans have strived to make it so. If we were all just animals after basic things just to exist then none of this would have happened. You may admire the Austrlian aborigines, but you aren't one. Neither are alot of other people. This doesn't mean that we're doomed and they're not. After all, they're humans too - if we were all equally bad no matter who or where we are, then surely those aboriginies would never have come to exist as, according to your outlook, we're all basically selfish and only out to look after our own basic animalistic needs. And it's obvious that not everyone on the planet, even in the West, thinks that they're better than nature - otherwise even a basic dialogue about climate change, human and other rights, etc. simply wouldn't pass through our minds.

IMHO it's both lazy and foolish to believe were just animals and a bane on this planet. If everyone thought that then we'd be in very serious trouble. Misanthropy is a retardent on trying to look for change.
 
Se you said that you LIVE in Ethiopia. Therefore all the suffering will be very close to you and you will obviuosly care. For you it is nearby and so affecting yourself far more.
Yes I did have food and water today but as it was said by GadaffiDuck, because I live far away my immediate problems are most important to myself. I have to sort myself out and be mainly problem free before I can care about others.
It is the old chestnut about a man with broken arms can't help someone carry their burden, unless they are healed.
Also there are too many people on this earth to care too much. It may sound harsh but nature itself would agree if she could have a voice.
I might live in the west and have problems with the NHS but I have suffered badly because of that. Longterm toothaches that made we want to pull my teeth with pliers [as some people in this very country have actually done due to the same reasons]. Our problems here in the west can be very soul destroying as suicides show. For a person to take their own life because they owe too much to credit sharks for example is pretty bad. Is it somehow less worrying if a westener is so desperate to kill himself because he should be "grateful" for what he has?
The truth is what G-Duck said. We are stuck with our environment here in the west. As much as I'd like to live in a little hut and eat nuts, I can't, I am forced by my environment to keep pace.
Trust me, if I could I would but I do have responsibilities and debts, I have to work to pay them off first or I'll be a criminal. I have to buy the cheapest clothes [that others make and suffer for], not because I'm a greedy cow but because I am expected to look decent at work but can't affort expensive clothes.
I have to shop in supermarkets for the same reason. It is all very well if you are rich, have no worries and can go to a nice independent shop and pay over the odds just to buy eco-friendly food or what have you.
Basically we should acknowledge that not everybody can/ is able to care about all the people in the world.
If what you are doing is helping, good for your guilt and good for the people you are helping but there were times in my life where my peers cared more for Africans or others than the people they were living with.
For example when my husband and I needed desperately a little help with a deposit [or we would have ended up on the street], my own brother refused, telling me that I chose to live in england so I could bloody well pay my own way. However he has sponsored an african boy for several years and sent him a lot of money. Good for the boy but may I remind everybody that I am family and in times of tribes he would have cared more about me than about an unknown stranger.
That is what's wrong. There are tons of british teens on the street, homeless, getting raped or murdered but instead of housing our nearest, we sent the money abroad. That hurts. That is crap. That makes no sense at all.
 
I must admit, I like my technology and wouldn't want to live in a little hut in the middle of a godforsaken jungle. The difference between me and a starving African is merely the fortunes of birth - I will not feel guilty for my life or the history of my nation because some bleeding hearts tell me I should be. Futher, the argument above about us being more than animals is somewhat foolish and clearly indicative of the blank slate approach...how sad and ill-informed. We are animals and we are mainly the product of our genes, though this is via nurture (nb. genes are still more important..it ain't 50/50). However, we are cognitive tool using animals and that gives us the choice in our behaviour - and has made us masters of this planet (kinda). Jerry's extension to the above argument about aborigines shows a complete lack of understanding of evolutionary science. No offence :D
 
Gadaffi_Duck said:
Jerry's extension to the above argument about aborigines shows a complete lack of understanding of evolutionary science.
Click to expand...

How so?
 
Dingo666 said:
That is what's wrong. There are tons of british teens on the street, homeless, getting raped or murdered but instead of housing our nearest, we sent the money abroad. That hurts. That is crap. That makes no sense at all.
Click to expand...

It would be crap if all of that money was being spent abroad on other causes and nothing was spent here, but that's not the case.
 
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