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ID Cards / Identification Cards

I'm not sure what kind of cards you're thinking of, but I think you're getting a bit paranoid.

The cards we have back home have our picture, name, address, nationality, gender, date and place of birth on them, as well as our national number (which is on every other bit of official paperwork as well) and that's about it.
The Belgian 'Big Brother' is so with it that they still think I live in my small village back home, when I've been in this country for 4 years. They even gave me money back on the taxes I paid over here! So much for tracking my every movement.

As for the hassling of certain groups of people, particularly racial minorities (easier to target because they're more obvious than, say, political allegiances) I admit it does happen quite a lot in countries like Belgium and France.
That said, it usually has more to do with the popularity of the right-wing movement in our police force than a concerted government effort.
 
jamesveldon said:
there is no conspiracy. It's much to simple for that.

Why do we pick on imagrents and dole cheats anyway? I've known alot of dole cheats. You try living on what they give you.
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The joke is according to UN figures, for our economy to keep growing at the same rate over the next ten years, we need an influx of around a million immigrants a year.
Personally, if somebody was streetwise enough to smuggle themselves out of Saddam Hussein's Iraq, make his way thousands of miles across Europe, with no passport or ticket, and then managed to evade the UK's tight border security, I would say that man shows an admirable level of initaive, and should be given a job straight away.
As to dole cheats, News International, owners of the Sun, Times and Sunday Times, due to some creative accounting, pays no tax to the UK Government. Whose cheating who?
 
chatsubo said:
Personally, if somebody was streetwise enough to smuggle themselves out of Saddam Hussein's Iraq, make his way thousands of miles across Europe, with no passport or ticket, and then managed to evade the UK's tight border security, I would say that man shows an admirable level of initaive, and should be given a job straight away.
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Give them a job in the tax office they will show more inititive than the people who have been processing my rebate for a month now.
 
here we g
Peter Brookes' cartoon in the Times sums up the prevailing view about
David Blunkett's "entitlement card" scheme: "This card entitles the
holder to trouser billions of hard-earned pounds sterling for
absolutely no other reason than an obnoxious desire to promote an
Orwellian intrusion into our privacy, and to create yet another
cock-up-prone, inconvenience-riddled level of balls-aching
bureaucracy. OK?" reads a card showing the home secretary and his
guide dog.

Mr Blunkett may be "enthusiastic" about the compulsory card - which
would enable the holder to prove their right to medical treatment,
benefits and education - but only the Mirror can muster any support
for it. ID cards, as most of the papers prefer to call them, would be
expensive (according to the Independent), an infringement of civil
liberties (the Telegraph) and ineffective (the Times, Guardian and
Sun).

Mr Blunkett assures Times readers that carrying the card would not be
compulsory. But this is no comfort to the paper. "Those who choose to
withhold information, from medical to tax records, would find that
the free access they enjoy to those services would be impeded."

"Instead of mobile phone theft, we would have ID card theft," predicts
the Telegraph. "A thriving black market in forged or stolen cards
would quickly emerge." Has the home secretary caved in to French
demands for ID cards in exchange for the closure of Sangatte, the
paper asks? It declares the term "entitlement card" "odious, implying
as it does that our liberties are in the gift of the state."

Mr Blunkett's case is weak, agrees the Guardian; it is unconvinced
that a card would make it any easier to access services, tackle the
black market in low-paid labour or social security fraud. "It is an
idea that, at least for now, should be put back in its box," agrees
the FT.

The Independent says the scheme would cost GBP3.1bn and would be
funded by a large increase in the cost of passports and driving
licences. These, it says, would pay for free ID cards for the poor.

Even the Mirror cannot find anything to praise about the scheme. "Just
about everybody in the country has all sorts of proofs of identity...
What is the problem with having an identity card, too? None that the
Mirror can see for any honest person."
o (from the Guardian online):
 
here we go (form the guardian online):

Peter Brookes' cartoon in the Times sums up the prevailing view about
David Blunkett's "entitlement card" scheme: "This card entitles the
holder to trouser billions of hard-earned pounds sterling for
absolutely no other reason than an obnoxious desire to promote an
Orwellian intrusion into our privacy, and to create yet another
cock-up-prone, inconvenience-riddled level of balls-aching
bureaucracy. OK?" reads a card showing the home secretary and his
guide dog.

Mr Blunkett may be "enthusiastic" about the compulsory card - which
would enable the holder to prove their right to medical treatment,
benefits and education - but only the Mirror can muster any support
for it. ID cards, as most of the papers prefer to call them, would be
expensive (according to the Independent), an infringement of civil
liberties (the Telegraph) and ineffective (the Times, Guardian and
Sun).

Mr Blunkett assures Times readers that carrying the card would not be
compulsory. But this is no comfort to the paper. "Those who choose to
withhold information, from medical to tax records, would find that
the free access they enjoy to those services would be impeded."

"Instead of mobile phone theft, we would have ID card theft," predicts
the Telegraph. "A thriving black market in forged or stolen cards
would quickly emerge." Has the home secretary caved in to French
demands for ID cards in exchange for the closure of Sangatte, the
paper asks? It declares the term "entitlement card" "odious, implying
as it does that our liberties are in the gift of the state."

Mr Blunkett's case is weak, agrees the Guardian; it is unconvinced
that a card would make it any easier to access services, tackle the
black market in low-paid labour or social security fraud. "It is an
idea that, at least for now, should be put back in its box," agrees
the FT.

The Independent says the scheme would cost GBP3.1bn and would be
funded by a large increase in the cost of passports and driving
licences. These, it says, would pay for free ID cards for the poor.

Even the Mirror cannot find anything to praise about the scheme. "Just
about everybody in the country has all sorts of proofs of identity...
What is the problem with having an identity card, too? None that the
Mirror can see for any honest person."
 
Personally, I think Blind Lemon Jefferson is trying to get some kudos from the right wing press (not that it seems to be working) so he can nail his colours to the leadership mast after Tony bows out to take a job as President of the EU.
And while its not often I agree with the Daily Torygraph I think the following from their editoral is spot on in attacking the term "entitlement card":- "odious, implying
as it does that our liberties are in the gift of the state."
 
Originally posted by chatsubo
[BOnce civil liberties are given up, they are often impossible to claw back.
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My point exactly. Once ID cards are introduced that'll be it, they won't be removed. Its a slippery slope, helps condition us for whatever they want to do next. Chips under the skin maybe, like with pets?

And you're right, all those people who've already made the point, its not millionaire businessmen who're going to suffer, they'll still be able to perform their dodgy deals, avoid tax, etc. It will be the poor, the dispossessed, the 'different' as always.

Asylum seekers are now the bogeymen it seems, any repressive piece of legislation can be whisked past us by invoking them. Time was they used to be called refugees and we used to have sympathy for them.

To say I'm disappointed with this Labour government would be an understatement. Even Thatch didn't try this.

And finally, ONE BILLION POUNDS, that's obsene!
 
Found this report from Privacy international which adds fuel to the anti-ID card arguments. As I said before, I don't feel strongly about them, so I'm only posting it because I thought it might be of interest to some of you.
 
Does anyone know how much a unified ID card is likely to save by getting rid of the other forms of ID (for we do have them)?

As I've said previously, I would be concerned if you could randomly be forced to show your ID to officials in the street (etc.). Does anyone know if that is being mooted for this card? I haven't heard that it is.

Additionally, it would be a bit stupid for officials to be given that power, when possessing a card would be voluntary. "Can I see you ID card sir?" "Sorry I never bothered to get one." "Oh well. Never mind eh?" ;)
 
I'd like to ask those people who think ID cards are nothing to worry about whether they've ever checked what's lurking in their computer in the way of 'spyware' from commercial snoopers. I'm pretty paranoid about accepting cookies etc, and I still found 70 odd files that had been snuck onto my PC when I ran Ad-aware (highly recommended). What the hell is going to be inserted onto my ID card without my knowledge, or what data extracted, when I take it down my friendly local bank, or wherever? I suppose that in an environment where people are prepared to hand over info to supermarkets thru loyalty cards, perhaps everyone else isn't worried, but I just plain don't like being surveilled.

Up until recently, it was standard practice for local authorities to make money by selling the electoral roll to direct marketing companies. With the present govt, do you really trust them not to farm ID cards out to a so-called 'public-private partnership'? Or even if you trust them (staggeringly naive in my book, but there's nowt so daft as folks), what about the possibility of corruption? Cops already take back-handers to run PNC checks...

The brute reality is that the state will always abuse its powers, and so the less power we allow it the better.

On the question of the benevolent nature of existing cards, just you wait till an unusual spending pattern triggers a security program on your bank's computer. I've spent an hour being hassled and treated like a crim in full public view, all because of an error by a cashier at Tesco.
 
Sainsbury's and Tesco's offer reward point schemes. Hand over your card and collect the points. One of the reasons they give for these cards (one of it's GOOD points!) is that it means they can tell the kinds of products you buy, the quantity, the frequency, the brand, and send you promotional mail accordingly. In this way, my cats were treated to 6 free pouches of Whiskas, and I've got money off vouchers of Oil of Ulay.

BTW benefit fraud amounts to an estimated £2 billion a year. And that's UK billions, not US.

There are benefits to having a nationally accepted form of ID, although I'm not really sure why it's necessary, except for the amount of people who have none. It's your responsibility to prove your identity, not anyone elses. While I don't like the notion of being a number on a card, we already are. We're National Insurance Numbers; we fill in censuses(eseses!); we get priviledge cards from shops; we fill in insurance documents for cars, bikes, houses, contents, all of which end up on a database for use by anyone willing to pay. It's probably rather naive to think that ID cards would make a big difference to our personal freedom (such as it is).

Although I won't apply for a picture driving licence until I absolutely have to. For one thing, my hair style changes so often (as does the colour); and for another, I've heard too many horror stories of DVLA losing entitlements off your licence, and you having to prove that you've passed your bike/HGV whatever. On my licence I can drive a 7.5 ton truck. Apparently, I lose that if I reapply for the new licence. Of course, I'm only delaying the inevitable, because I'm bound to need a new licence when I change my name and/or move.
 
BTW benefit fraud amounts to an estimated £2 billion a year. And that's UK billions, not US.
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Note the 'estimated', if you look into it, its more a case of 'here's a figure we made up earlier to frighten the punters'. Also this figure is dwarfed by the amount of benefit that people are entitled to but don't claim, because the whole benefits system is designed to confuse and put off people as a deliberate strategy to cut costs. One of the most disgraceful things that this govt did was to close down the national DSS advice line which helped claimants know what they were entitled to, and spend the money on a 'shop your neighbour' line.

And of course tax fraud and 'avoidance' is rampant, but oh what the hell, that's done by respectable people with nice cars and houses.
 
There's still a national benefits' enquiry line. I'll find the number out tomorrow if anyone's interested.
 
Fortis said:
As I've said previously, I would be concerned if you could randomly be forced to show your ID to officials in the street (etc.). Does anyone know if that is being mooted for this card? I haven't heard that it is.
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As I've said previously, I would be concerned if the EEC turned into a single fascist state with a single currency. Does anyone if thats being mooted for this 'EEC'? I havent heard that it is.

(sorry for making the same point in two consecutive posts....)

It's a slippery slope my friend....
 
wintermute said:
Note the 'estimated', if you look into it, its more a case of 'here's a figure we made up earlier to frighten the punters'. Also this figure is dwarfed by the amount of benefit that people are entitled to but don't claim, because the whole benefits system is designed to confuse and put off people as a deliberate strategy to cut costs. One of the most disgraceful things that this govt did was to close down the national DSS advice line which helped claimants know what they were entitled to, and spend the money on a 'shop your neighbour' line.

And of course tax fraud and 'avoidance' is rampant, but oh what the hell, that's done by respectable people with nice cars and houses.
Click to expand...

when i was on the dole (during thatcher regien) they spouted about benifit fraud all the timem aparently average benifit fraud was £4.... i wounder how much the average corporate fraud was at that time and how many of the white color criminaly had thier children intervewed in the school playgrounds (as happened down here)
 
BTW benefit fraud amounts to an estimated £2 billion a year. And that's UK billions, not US

Sorry to be pedantic, but a uk billion is the same as a us billion, ie, one thousand million.
 
Adam Rang said:
As I've said previously, I would be concerned if the EEC turned into a single fascist state with a single currency. Does anyone if thats being mooted for this 'EEC'? I havent heard that it is.

(sorry for making the same point in two consecutive posts....)

It's a slippery slope my friend....
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Slopes can be slippy, but you don't *have* to go down them. Also if I remember correctly, the single currency thing occured to the EU a few decades after the formation of the EEC, and even then various member states opted out, while others held referendums.

How about:
"Mr Robert Peel, I'm very concerned about these policemen chappies that you propose. Methinks that they could become an armed paramilitary force that could restrict the legitimate freedoms of the populace. Perhaps we'd be better off without them, eh?"

Or:
"These passports and driving licenses could easily lead on to some sort of national ID card, which in turn may lead to the formation of a police state with absolute powers. I say we stop the rot now."

The fact that the government hasn't mooted the sacrifice of babies to onholy gods (though it's probably only a matter of time ;) ) doesn't mean that they won't do it at some point in the future, but it is always better to work with what is being openly discussed, than to avoid change because it might just be for the worse in th elong run. (It was exactly "worst case scenario" thinking that helped to keep the wider populace disenfranchised. There was a widespread fear among the voting class that extending the franchise would lead to the destruction of civilisation as we know it. It *never* happened and we are the better for it.)

There *are* legitimate concerns about the introduction of a national ID card (the pooling of information sources, etc.) but I would like to hear the proposals in detail before I start becoming too concerned. (Notice also, that there are *no* immediate plans to introduce the cards. The government is supportive of the idea, but we are currently in a period of public consultation to see what people think.)
 
I'm a lot less concerned about a single currency, the `Euro,' than I am about a national, or eventually, europe-wide `carte d' identite.' Anybody who's had to travel through more than a couple of national boundaries and buy petrol (gas), fags (cigarettes), or a burger `royale,' will know that the only people, or organisations, who benefitted from fifteen separate currencies were `bureau de changes,' banks and speculators.

The dollar has made sense for yonks (a considerable length of time), why not the euro?
 
AndroMan said:
I'm a lot less concerned about a single currency, the `Euro,' than I am about a national, or eventually, europe-wide `carte d' identite.' Anybody who's had to travel through more than a couple of national boundaries and buy petrol (gas), fags (cigarettes), or a burger `royale,' will know that the only people, or organisations, who benefitted from fifteen separate currencies were `bureau de changes,' banks and speculators.

The dollar has made sense for yonks (a considerable length of time), why not the euro?
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Weyhey, onother Euro supporter, any more out there?..ducks behind the parapet.
 
p.younger said:
Sorry to be pedantic, but a uk billion is the same as a us billion, ie, one thousand million.
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Not according to the Oxford dictionary.
 
p.younger said:
Weyhey, onother Euro supporter, any more out there?..ducks behind the parapet.
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I'm with you lads. I don't give a monkey's toss whose face is on my money, just as long as I have enough for a pint, pie and a puff.
And the Save the Groat Ad campaign is just embarrassing.
 
I'm sorry if this is off topic - but its to do with civil liberties so I'll carry on and let the thought police decide :D

Last night on Newsnight there was a discussion about the possibility of a 'marker' in your genes which shows whether you would be predisposed to commit crime/ be violent. It was being advocated by one side that people who show this 'marker' could be stopped before they commit a crime and locked up for the good of the community.

This is the sort of information which will/may be put in the proposed ID cards. You try handing it over when you want insurance or health care. This really is the slippery slope towards 1984!
 
Meanderer said:
I'm sorry if this is off topic - but its to do with civil liberties so I'll carry on and let the thought police decide :D

Last night on Newsnight there was a discussion about the possibility of a 'marker' in your genes which shows whether you would be predisposed to commit crime/ be violent. It was being advocated by one side that people who show this 'marker' could be stopped before they commit a crime and locked up for the good of the community.

This is the sort of information which will/may be put in the proposed ID cards. You try handing it over when you want insurance or health care. This really is the slippery slope towards 1984!
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I saw the item as well, but I thought the whole gene marker thing was pretty far-fetched (at least at the moment)
However, there are clear precursors exhibited by most serial killers when they were children:
extreme cruelty to animals (not like pulling the cats tail, but torturing the cat), the classic loner behaviour, and sadly, often an abusive family life (mental or phsyical).
Should social services, while obviously doing everything they can to help these troubled teens, also compile a potential serial killer database, just to be on the safe side?
 
Don't forget persistent bed wetting beyond the age of 8 :)

8¬)
 
wintermute said:
Note the 'estimated', if you look into it, its more a case of 'here's a figure we made up earlier to frighten the punters'. Also this figure is dwarfed by the amount of benefit that people are entitled to but don't claim, because the whole benefits system is designed to confuse and put off people as a deliberate strategy to cut costs.
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There is billions each year unclaimed in the social fund (a system where those on benifits are given grants to buy essensal itims such as furnature.) And what is the reason this is unclaimed? You guesed i: nonoe is told they are entitled to it!

When I was signing about a year ago I was offerd a full time job in Stirling but couldn't go to the interview because my Giro wasn't dew for another week. When I aplied for a crisis lone I was told that i could not get one as they did not give them out if the money was conected to the serch for work. I was not told (wich I found out later) that you could claim a one off payment for traveling expences to an interview anywhere in the UK and guese what yep you'r right it's a grant not a loan. notice a patern developing here.

When my brother moved to Cambridge at my behest to find work he was refused a crisis loan because he had spent his giro in the persuit of work. He may have traveld hundreds of miles without the promise of any change in his circimstance, he may have elected to sleep on my floor so that he had a better chance of finding work but he was not entitled to help from the socal security for this as it was viewed as an irisponsable expendature.

Is it any wonder that people defraud the system?

The costs of fraud are ofset by the amount of unpaid benefit so that particular argument is invalid.

And yes there is a helpline still in existance. That would be the one thast refused to tell me if I could claim housing benefit when I was working part time. Great helpline.

And then you've got imagrents. Saxons, Normans, Danes, Irish...

The poor and the disposesed are always the ones used to legitimisise unjust legislation. They are not the only ones to suffer under it.
 
Meanderer said:
Last night on Newsnight there was a discussion about the possibility of a 'marker' in your genes which shows whether you would be predisposed to commit crime/ be violent. It was being advocated by one side that people who show this 'marker' could be stopped before they commit a crime and locked up for the good of the community.

This is the sort of information which will/may be put in the proposed ID cards. You try handing it over when you want insurance or health care. This really is the slippery slope towards 1984!
Click to expand...

The whole topic of genetic predisposition is another can of worms (and a particularly large one0 siting on the shelve.

A great example of this is the socalled gay gene. There has been millions spent on reserch into what gene causes homosexuality. I personaly thought it was a lifestyle choice myself.

likewise criminal and 'antisocal' behavouur. How do they find their groups to study? Do they look to those comited of offences already. Here's a shock for you then:

Most offences are comited by those form lower socal groupings and a disproportunate amount of offences are comited by those of a non white ethnic grouping. Let's lock up the poor and the nigers...
 
Like most things genetic, i imagine it would be more along the lines of a 'Genetic Predisposition', Like a Genetic Predisposition towards Cancer or Alcoholism. Doesn't mean you WILL get cancer or you WILL become an Alcoholic, just that given the 'Correct' circumstances, you hava a higher chance than others of this happening. Our behaviour is only Partially determined by our genetic makeup.
 
genetics, in its present form, would have us beleve that our genes compute. Or to put it another way that a jenex will result in protene y wich will have effect x.

However the problem of developmental noise is overlooked in this theoretical structure (WARNING! SCIENCE UP AHEAD!
 
sorry I posted by mistake there.

Anyway...

Developmental noise (I hope that's the right name for it) is basicly the random circimstances under wich an orginism gestates. If (for instance) the whome is half a degree warmer or colder, there is a change in the hormonal levals within the whome ect then this would be developmental noise.

This can affect the phenotype (another technical term I hope is corect. It's the fully grown orginism itself) of a friut fly dramaticaly and is in no way a genetic inheritance. If it cvan affect fruit flies than how much does it affect more complex orginisims such as say mamals?

Our genes do not compute they mearly alow protens to be produced and the orginism to develop. The amount of disorders that have been tied to spacific genes are tiny and rare and crime or homosexuality (wich I mensioned earlier as a good case study) are not among them.
 
i don't see all these problems going on about your liberties being infringed by having ID cards.
I grew up in Italy for about 20 years and i always had ID cards.
No one thought that our civil liberties were being infringed.
The card was just a mean of identification like a driving licence or a passport.
Here in UK ,using the cards should make things easier like opening a bank account (how the hell am i supposed to have a utility bill when i don't pay for them,for example?,how do i show the people at BT that i actually live there ,when the same people ask me for a phone or gas bill?? ).
 
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