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Immanuel Velikovsky / Worlds in Collision

NO you're defending the fringe stuff that's unsupported by evidence or by other physicists who've worked in the field. That's what gets him dismissed and largely forgotten, not his pioneering work on electricity and radio.


You're also playing the "he was right about some stuff, therefore he was right about everything game" again. Einstein who've you've drawn attention to occasion was also wrong about things, everyone is.

And who are the "they" by the way that suppress the ideas about the aether? The Vatican, the Illuminati, the Reptoids?
 
NO you're defending the fringe stuff that's unsupported by evidence or by other physicists who've worked in the field. That's what gets him dismissed and largely forgotten, not his pioneering work on electricity and radio.


You're also playing the "he was right about some stuff, therefore he was right about everything game" again. Einstein who've you've drawn attention to occasion was also wrong about things, everyone is.

And who are the "they" by the way that suppress the ideas about the aether? The Vatican, the Illuminati, the Reptoids?
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I assume that you mean The Wardenclyffe Power Plant when you say, “failed to deliver”. It was in fact J P Morgan who pulled the plug. Tesla wanted to supply the world with free energy – naïve maybe, but not bad business sense; Tesla was not a businessman. As you well know.
The fringe stuff was Wardenclyffe, that’s how it worked. As proof that it worked he drove the Pierce Arrow around for eight days on the same principal. This was in full public view and was reported by the press of the day; they accused him of being in league with the devil.

Again I ask the same question I asked about Velikovsky; if it works then why cannot it be admitted that it works.

“And who are the "they" by the way that suppress the ideas about the aether? The Vatican, the Illuminati, the Reptoids?”
The scientific Mafia, AKA academic science, the “they” is always those who have a vested interest, be it money, power, or just plain keeping their job.

I’ve a list of Tesla’s patents and inventions somewhere it’s very impressive.
 
By fringe stuff, I meant the attempt to develop an alternative theory, the contact with the Martians (actually an explanation for this is that he invented radio astronomy several decades early and didn't realise what he was detecting, and neither did anyone else whcih is why it was dismissed), the death ray.

The car story is muddled to say the least, there's debate as to whether it ran on radiant energy or on highly efficient batteries, whichever it was the technology got misplaced somewhere along the line. Also there doesn't appear to be any pphysical evidence surviving for the car. Tesla centaienly thought that electric cars had a future, how far he got with producing one is debated.

Wardenclyffe was great experiment that ran out of money, likewise the Colarado Springs laboratories. He laid the ground for a lot of other people's work, but never managed to get it practically applied.

The project that did get built should have made him the Bill Gtaes of his age, but as already pointed out he didn't handle his business affairs very well.

Veliskovsky on the other hand produced nothing solid in the field cosmology, history, or geology and his ideas belong in the "interesting but incorrect speculation category" along with the Hanns Hoerbiger's "World Ice" Cosmology (I hope I spelt the name right), and the concave hollow earth models.

BTW: Edmond Halley, of the comet fame, proposed a hollow earth model of several concentric shells, as I said even clever people get it wrong sometimes....and a more establishment man than Halley would be hard to find.
 
By fringe stuff, I meant the attempt to develop an alternative theory.
You have me at a disadvantage there, to my knowledge he never published it.

the contact with the Martians (actually an explanation for this is that he invented radio astronomy several decades early and didn't realise what he was detecting, and neither did anyone else which is why it was dismissed), the death ray.

I found some good stuff on this once but I accidentally erased it. I think it’s titled An Historic Document? Tesla was not the only one to get weird signals at the time, Marconi had the same experience and if you find the web site someone else also.
Hohman, R. E., "An Historic Report On Life In Space: Telsa, Marconi, Todd", 1962 report to the American Rocket Society

There is a copy of it here, ignore the site it’s the only one I can find.
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/upd ... -015.shtml

This is why SETI is a waste of time as radio signals are too slow for interstellar. Tesla used his scalar technology to achieve this. Try Keelynet there are some real scientists there and I’m sure that someone will have an interstellar communicator.

“The car story is muddled to say the least, there's debate as to whether it ran on radiant energy or on highly efficient batteries.
See above”

Here is the story : In 1930, Nikola Tesla asked his nephew, Petar Savo, who was born in Yugoslavia in 1899, to come to New York. Petar was 43 years younger than his uncle. Up to that date he had lived under stringent conditions in Yugoslavia, Tesla's country of birth. During the summer of 1931, Tesla took his nephew to Buffalo to unveil and test a new automobile. Tesla had developed it with his own personal funds. It was a Pierce Arrow, one of the luxury cars of the period. The engine had been removed, leaving the clutch, gearbox and transmission to the rear wheels undisturbed. The gasoline engine had been replaced with a round, completely enclosed electric motor of approximately 1m in length and 65cm in diameter, with a cooling fan in front. Reputedly, it has no distributor. Tesla was not willing to say who had manufactured the engine. It was possibly one of the divisions of Westinghouse. The "energy receiver" (gravitational energy convertor) had been built by Tesla himself. The dimensions of the convertor housing were approximately 60 x 25 x 15cm. It was installed in front of the dashboard. Among other things, the convertor contained 12 vacuum tubes, of which three were of the 70-L-7 type. A heavy antenna approximately 1.8 metres long, came out of the convertor. This antenna apparently had the same function as that on the Moray convertor (see chapter on Radiant Energy). Furthermore, two thick rods protruded approximately 10cm from the convertor housing.

No mention of bateries. I understand that the story is by nephew Peter Savo.

“The project that did get built should have made him the Bill Gates of his age.”

He made a million from the Niagara project by it was all spent on research.

I’m afraid I know nothing of Hoerbiger but I do know about John Worrell Keely. :D
 
almond13 said:
This is why SETI is a waste of time as radio signals are too slow for interstellar. Tesla used his scalar technology to achieve this. Try Keelynet there are some real scientists there and I’m sure that someone will have an interstellar communicator.
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I've asked if you would mind expanding on this particular nugget over on the Contact! thread.
 
Veliskovsky on the other hand produced nothing solid in the field cosmology, history, or geology and his ideas belong in the "interesting but incorrect speculation category" along with the Hanns Hoerbiger's "World Ice" Cosmology (I hope I spelt the name right), and the concave hollow earth models.
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Livio Catullo Stecchini (6 October 1913 – September 1978) was a historian of science, a teaching professor (Harvard PhD), a scholar of ancient weights and measures, (the science of metrology) and of the history of cartography in antiquity.
Stecchini's work included many controversial elements, and he complained he was ignored by fellow scientists. His defence of Immanuel Velikovsky in the September 1963 issue of American Behavioural Scientist magazine (that issue was republished in 1966 as The Velikovsky Affair) undoubtedly also contributed to thisHis unpublished work on metrology, based on his work on ancient neumismatics ends in conclusions which are rejected by most academics today. His method consists of starting with an assumption, namely that all ancient measures are by definition related. It is an old and intriguing idea, but one for which no proof has been found. Based on numerical analysis of data, he reaches his conclusion (in "A History of Measures") :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livio_Catullo_Stecchini

As you can see the dreaded statistical analysis raises it’s ugly head once more and it seems that anyone opposed to this indoctrination is out. But in this case two birds with one stone. “They” realy don’t like new ideas do they? More on Stecchini later.
 
Then again, prhaps the problem (as with Velikovsky) is that he starts from an assumption, but then can't find any proof for it. As far as scientific method is concerned, it's a bit of a dead end.
 
As far as scientific method is concerned, it's a bit of a dead end.
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Is this the latest reason for character assassination?
 
almond13 said:
Here is the story : In 1930, Nikola Tesla asked his nephew, Petar Savo, who was born in Yugoslavia in 1899, to come to New York. Petar was 43 years younger than his uncle. Up to that date he had lived under stringent conditions in Yugoslavia, Tesla's country of birth. During the summer of 1931, Tesla took his nephew to Buffalo to unveil and test a new automobile. Tesla had developed it with his own personal funds. It was a Pierce Arrow, one of the luxury cars of the period. The engine had been removed, leaving the clutch, gearbox and transmission to the rear wheels undisturbed. The gasoline engine had been replaced with a round, completely enclosed electric motor of approximately 1m in length and 65cm in diameter, with a cooling fan in front. Reputedly, it has no distributor. Tesla was not willing to say who had manufactured the engine. It was possibly one of the divisions of Westinghouse. The "energy receiver" (gravitational energy convertor) had been built by Tesla himself. The dimensions of the convertor housing were approximately 60 x 25 x 15cm. It was installed in front of the dashboard. Among other things, the convertor contained 12 vacuum tubes, of which three were of the 70-L-7 type. A heavy antenna approximately 1.8 metres long, came out of the convertor. This antenna apparently had the same function as that on the Moray convertor (see chapter on Radiant Energy). Furthermore, two thick rods protruded approximately 10cm from the convertor housing.
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Here is the other story from an assistant of Tesla (or so he claims):Tesla's Last Known Living Assistant's Recorded Statement

Another one of his great inventions was the electric car. He built the first one in 1897 and he drove from New York City to Buffalo, New York and it had an average speed of 94 miles an hour. This car, if it was built today, would cost one-cent a mile to operate and it would cost practically nothing for repairs because apart from the mechanical parts, that is to say the wheels and the steering apparatus where they would compose the only moving parts, the engine in this electric car is a small alternating current motor which runs at the tremendous speed of thirty thousand rpm and this is reduced to eighteen hundred by means of a fluid transmission, also the invention of Tesla. The whole electric car is a magnificent piece of work and it could be put in use today and save the public hundreds of billions of dollars now wasted in gasoline and oil and spare parts. I could give a few details about this electric car. You see, it does not use a storage battery. It uses the special primary battery and if you know anything about primary batteries you'll know that the only part of a primary battery which fails is the negative plate. Any little dry cells you use for your flashlight, for instance, is the zinc which gives way, and when that gives way the battery goes dead. Well now, Tesla invented a completely new kind of primary battery and in this primary battery, if the negative plate wears out, it can be replaced even by a child in a few seconds. And the battery, when installed in this electric car, will run that car five hundred miles before the battery needs to be attended to. And when the battery does need to be attended to it would take you ten minutes to remedy whatever is going on and the spare parts are all in the trunk. You have enough spare parts to keep that battery running twelve months of the year. You do not have to stop at the service station. You could run five hundred miles for instance at seventy five miles per hour, if you were allowed to do it of course, but you could run this car say fifty or sixty miles an hour right across the country and probably not have to stop more than fifteen minutes to attend to the batteries.
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The problems with both stories are:
1) there's no obvious first hand account of this from Tesla
2) there's no physical evidence
3) Mathews is quite possibly barking, as he also met Venusians, and the rest of the account is goes to some strange places.
4) The nephew possibly didn't exist Tesla and a 1931 Pierce Arrow[/quote], and if he did how reliable was he?

This one is possibly part of the Tesla apochrypha, unless more material comes to light.

BTW: Keelynet is scarcely unbiased.
 
As far as scientific method is concerned, it's a bit of a dead end.
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This is what I fail to understand, how did we ever survive before “scientific method”? Tesla invented pretty well all of the modern technology that makes life enjoyable today and yet he fell fowl of the scientific method. How did we live without statistical analysis? It’s as if life itself depends on it.
Most new innovation is from people in garages tinkering and not from science.
I am waiting for “the computer you are working on is the result of scientific method” but it’s not. The computer was invented by a Post Office engineer.
 
We didn't do very well before scientific method, because without it it was fairly hard to find out anything via experimentation and repitition of results etc. Once a model for the method became agreed over time, that's the one that's stuck because it does the job. It also means that a scientist's peers can evaluate any claims, data, etc. This is why assumptions without evidence are not accepted, because no-one else can double-check things and verify that any given idea/theory has any weight of evidence/data, etc behind it. So, for example, to assume that the ancient world had a somewhat standard set of weights, or that accounts of 'catastrophes' from ancient texts are based in any actual reality tends to fall flat because the assumption has no evidence to back it up. Evidence is illustrative, as it enables a scientist's peers to evaluate what that scientist is try to explain. Basically, if an assumption lacks proof it has to stay an assumption because it cannot be checked any further.

This doesn't have anything to do with character assassination, because without proof an assumption isn't any more valid from a scientist then it is from a layman.
 
This one is possibly part of the Tesla apochrypha, unless more material comes to light.
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1) there's no obvious first hand account of this from Tesla
All of Tesla’s papers were confiscated at his death and locked in the government Alien Property Repository or some such and so there are not likely to be any.
2) there's no physical evidence
Of what?

3) Mathews is quite possibly barking, as he also met Venusians, and the rest of the account is goes to some strange places.
Who is Mathews?

4) The nephew possibly didn't exist Tesla and a 1931 Pierce Arrow[/quote], and if he did how reliable was he?

Yes I read this and there is no evidence given for the statement. However it does give the Newspaper.
 
almond13 said:
2) there's no physical evidence
Of what?

3) Mathews is quite possibly barking, as he also met Venusians, and the rest of the account is goes to some strange places.
Who is Mathews?
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2) Of the car actually existing for example

3) Well according to the link, one of Tesla's assistants. Now anyone claim that and write a book about it, but likewise anyone can claim to be Tesla's nephew, since the chap's long dead and unlikely to contradict them.

And about the papers, if they exist, why won't they be declassified at some point in the future? A lot of stuff was returned in the 1950s.
 
And about the papers, if they exist, why won't they be declassified at some point in the future? A lot of stuff was returned in the 1950s.
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1) Their existence is denied. I have some stuff somewhere about researchers trying to get access.
2) Everyone would want their own Wardenclyffe
3) Everyone would want a Pierce Arrow
4) “They” would not like it one bit
 
Tricky to prove that 'they' (whoever 'they' are - you may have to divulge this) have actually tried supress anything, isn't it? Or do you have proof?
 
Tricky to prove that 'they' (whoever 'they' are - you may have to divulge this) have actually tried supress anything, isn't it? Or do you have proof?
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I’ve already divulged, on this very page:

“And who are the "they" by the way that suppress the ideas about the aether? The Vatican, the Illuminati, the Reptoids?”
The scientific Mafia, AKA academic science, the “they” is always those who have a vested interest, be it money, power, or just plain keeping their job and greed.
Click to expand...

The “they” are different in this case.
 
But they never suppressed anything of Tesla's, in his day he was widely recognised as a leading scientist (including by people loke Kelvin who was about as establishment as you can get), however, they didn't blindly believe that everything he did was right.

As for his relative obscurity for a long time after his death, that sometimes happens, he wasn't as good at building the myth as Edison.

Tesla's downfall was as I've pointed out largely down to a lack of ability, or inclination, or both to handle the commercial use of his inventions.

He had some wild ideas, which didn't stand up to examination, that's not suppression that's scientific debate. Yes, some of his ideas were dismissed as completely bats - e.g. the Martian signals - but anyone would have got that sort of reaction.

If he'd just called them 'anomalous radio signals' or something else non-commital, he could have been credited with the discovery of radio-astronomy as it would more likely have been followed up.

In his later years he was certainly ill, but that doesn't undermine his earlier achievements, which are now being recognised again. Neither does the fact that he probably got a lot of stuff wrong as well.

It'll be interesting when the film 'The Prestige' comes out to see if a fictional invention of Tesla, that's a key part of the story, works its way into the Tesla legend as a real 'lost' invention.
 
almond13 said:
The scientific Mafia, AKA academic science, the “they” is always those who have a vested interest, be it money, power, or just plain keeping their job and greed.
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Ah - so you're saying that scientists have so much power that they even managed to supress Tesla's new car engine technology? How would doing this make them any money, especially in light of the fact that US and the rest of the world had just gone through a significant stock market crash? An invention like Tesla's engine would've given the US an extremely important economic edge in recouping after the crash, seeing as it perhaps could perhaps also have been made to a larger scale and thus met alot of the US' energy needs. The rich can't stay rich if the world economy is in recession, yet somehow we have to believe that they surpressed technology that would have reversed their fortunes and made the US an economic powerhouse quite some time before WWII?
 
“”John J. O'Neill, in his book "Prodigal Genius, The Life of Nikola Tesla", had claimed were impounded by the FBI, and denials by the FBI that they ever had the files. Unlike many other FBI files, many of the included papers are over the signature of J. Edgar Hoover himself.””
http://www.fbifile.com/fbifile-files.html

His papers were indeed impounded on his death after being taken from his hotel.
There were other papers left for safe keeping at other hotels etc.
The vast majority of these have not been recovered and at this late date it’s unlikely that they will be. It’s also unlikely that they are with the FBI and the place to look is probably the navy as they are said to have photographed some stuff at the Alien Property.
As for suppression, I understand that anything can be suppressed if it’s deemed useful to the military and the patent can be withdrawn and put under wraps. This can be applied to literally anything. If you do a search under suppressed inventions you will get more that enough. Wether you are prepared to believe this stuff is another matter. I have been particularly interested in the Common Market’s attempt to prevent the sale off vitamins, would you believe? There are many cases of alternate cancer cures being suppressed with imprisonments in the US and you will have noticed that HRH has recommended this course as an alternative to the NHS. You would think that anyone would be glad of help in this area with the poor performance of the medical profession to find a cure. There are more cases of cancer now than ever before and it’s rising.
I strongly recommend the book by Jonathan Eisen “Suppressed Inventions And Other Discoveries”. I read it about five years ago and it was like an awakening.

“”J P Morgan who pulled the plug. Tesla wanted to supply the world with free energy “”

The rich can't stay rich if the world economy is in recession, yet somehow we have to believe that they surpressed technology that would have reversed their fortunes and made the US an economic powerhouse quite some time before WWII?

The one above did and he was the richest man in America.
I did’nt say that science was responsible for this.
I said that the “they” were:

“And who are the "they" by the way that suppress the ideas about the aether? The Vatican, the Illuminati, the Reptoids?”

The scientific Mafia, AKA academic science ( In this case),

the “they” is always those who have a vested interest, be it money, power, greedor just plain keeping their job.
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If he'd just called them 'anomalous radio signals' or something else non-commital, he could have been credited with the discovery of radio-astronomy as it would more likely have been followed up.

Nothing was anomalous to Tesla. Anomalous was his stock in trade
 
The last post is a bit muddled, I hope you can sort it :D
 
almond13 said:
The one above did and he was the richest man in America.
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So, if this means that effectively some of the very rich stay rich - and this despite the worse economic crisis global capitalism has to yet to experience - why would something like Tesla's engine be any sort of threat? Compared to the global economy collapsing, a new engine is just peanuts. Introducing it to the market could hardly have been worse than the Stock Market crash of 1929. And it's not as if energy derived from petro-chemicals was all that much of a heavy-hitter back then - it's only really been an issue since the 1970s' Oil Crisis.

No energy is 'free' - someone somewhere has to make the machinery to generate or conduct that energy. That would mean that an engine like Tesla's would not be the advent of free energy. Cheaper energy, yes, but not free. The market would adapt and ascribe a net worth to the engine, it's design, and it's components - which would probably make a large amount of money if the principles it carries can be adapated to other forms of energy production. Whoever has the patent for such devices is effectively sitting on a goldmine.
 
The market would adapt and ascribe a net worth to the engine, it's design, and it's components - which would probably make a large amount of money if the principles it carries can be adapted to other forms of energy production. Whoever has the patent for such devices is effectively sitting on a goldmine.
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You need to look at the history of the time. The ICE was the moneymaker of the future and the electricity grids were being built nation-wide. What Tesla was offering was free energy to the whole world.
The pierce Arrow was converted with the knowledge of the Pierce Arrow Company and the conversion was probably done at Westinghouse. The tests were successful and Tesla stated that it would be used for trains, planes boats and automobiles. He said that he was negotiating with a major shipbuilding company to build a boat that ran on the same power source. Peter Savo was contacted by Lee DeForest, who was a friend of Tesla to ask about the outcome of the tests.
There was an article in the New York Daily News 2nd April 1934 at the time that was headlined “Tesla's Wireless Power Dream Nears Reality” and described the test run. However it made no mention of free energy.
Just after this time Westinghouse Corporation gave Tesla a free home for life at the New Yorker Hotel. After this and being employed by Westinghouse he never mentioned his free energy again.

All of the above was taken from trimble2’s quote that I discovered in Nexus magazine – so maligned in these pages. :(
If you search the web for past free energy devices that have been suppressed you will be surprised. What is not at all surprising is the reason that it’s being done? No market can survive its products being offered for free. Tesla’s invention would have wiped out both the electricity generation and the oil industry at a stroke. Then there are the gas and engine sales and a whole host of others. Is it not conceivable that they got their combined heads together?
:shock:
 
'Free energy' is not the same as 'free products'. I think some advocates of the free energy supression conspiracy seem to think otherwise. Even if the engine, grid, et.c provided free energy, the mechanisms that use it and control it would still not be free. So, for instance, a car with Tesla's engine would not be free - you'd still have to pay for the car. Likewise, you'd have to pay for the cost involved in managing and mainatining an energy network, even if the actual energy source was free. That cost would have to be passed onto consumers.
 
That cost would have to be passed onto consumers.
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Tesla had originally told Morgan that Wardenclyffe was for communications, knowing that he would not be party to the free distribution of energy. When other’s succeeded in setting up transmitters Tesla had to tell him what he had in mind. Morgan replied that it would be impossible to put meters on the receiving aerials and promptly withdrew his money and support.
 
But that's only one part of the product. And who's to say someone wouldn't have come up with a way of metering - or instead for charging for use of the energy network in a more widespread sense? So a cost could still be passed onto the consumer.
 
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