zede said:
For those of you who "saw through" religion as a child (which means even as a child you were far more intellectually advanced than most religious adults, right?)
This supposed to be sarcastic? I'll assume not, as otherwise my ire might be raised.
Perhaps I should explain what I meant (as I am the one who brought it up).
As a child, I was forcefed Southern Babtist propaganda from birth. I was forced to go to church by my grandparents on both sides of my lineage. I hated it, even as a child. I *never* ever believed in anything they spoke about in Sunday School or during the adult's ceremony. I didn't feel any of it was real with either my heart or soul. I only parroted back what they told me I should believe.
Despite not fully believing it, I did internalise quite a lot of it. As a child, I fully believed that women had one fewer rib than men. I believed the world was a few thousand years old and created at the snap of a finger. Believed that prayer would be answered. Somewhere along the line, I also gained the belief that women were the cause of all evil in the world as it's a woman who frecked up Edan and got us kicked out and made us all suffer. (I think there must have been a lot of underlying mysogany and woman-hating going on there for me to pick up on something like that, but I can't pinpoint at which point I started believing it.)
The "loss of my faith" which was fear-instilled rather than true, came about as I learned more about science, read books on my own, and explored the world. I found myself pondering many of the logical inconsistancies in what I'd been taught. My faith kind of faded away as I thought "hmm, well, I've never felt there was a god watching me, and all these things they told me aren't really true."
Was I far smarter than religious adult? I don't think so. I think I had a more critical and open mind, a curiosity that led me to question things. No one else in my family to my knowledge has ever questioned their faith- they just follow it like blind sheep and want everyone else to, as well. My lack of faith slowly evolved over time- is still evolving, really- away from "they lied to me" to "the god concept doesn't even make any sense anyway."
Then get back with us and tell us how the question "Does God exist?" even makes sense, let alone how you can answer it "No."
Sounds remarkably like "go read this'ere book and then you'll be a True Believer (tm)." Nope, not gonna play that game. Been there, done that, not interested in a re-hash. I've been questioning myself for the last 12-odd years, reading and speaking to people, and analysing. There is no book you can give me that would turn my skeptical heart into a Christian. (No, that's not closed-mindedness, that's just a fact. I have already thought about it, and despite constantly being given "what about this" examples, my lack of belief in a god only gets stronger.)
I'm just always mystified how on these boards it seems if someone says, "There was a loud crashing sound in my kitchen" people have no problem jumping to the conclusion "It's a ghost!" or "It's a poltergeist!" But someone claims to have experienced healing as a result of prayer (regardless of what religion) and people say, "Oh, there's obviously some natural explanation."
I don't think I act in this way, as I like to try reasonable explanations as to what something could be, but maybe you're just not seeing the proper perspective here.
Myself, I am more inclined to believe "it's a ghost" because I have experienced such things (or, believe I have, at the very least). The manifestation of energy into a tangible object or sound is not beyond the realm of reality, in my opinion.
But, a leg growing six inches in a matter of seconds.... As I don't believe in miracles, and have never personally experienced such a phenomenon, I am disinclined to believe it on face-value. That sort of thing happening would take a tremendous amount of energy for converting blood, bone, sinew, tendons, muscle, so on and so forth into a working, proper leg.... That's a bit farther out of the realm of reality that I personally think is possible.
Even if a straight atheist came along and claimed such a thing without attributing a god to it, I still wouldn't believe it.
If God is Being-Itself ... infinite ...
This presupposes that god IS infinite. This is not a belief shared by many, not even necessarily most, people. This is making an assumption as to the nature of an infinite being.
But, if god were infinite, that would include the proclivity for evil and other nasty things. Which most people claim god isn't. Which means he's not infinite as infinity would include the most vile acts of inhumanity as well as the most noble acts of altruism.
A multiplicity of gods might be the way some have understood the revelation of God they had in their time and cultural context; but God is One. So it makes no sense to pit the Christian God against the Muslim God against the Jewish God against... you get the picture.
Then god has multiple personality disorder and is quite delusional. Most pagans would likely also argue this point with you. Polytheists do not believe that your god is their god wearing different make-up, and would be offended at the suggestion.
I also find it hard to believe that the god of Little Johhny that tells him to kill baby animals is the same god as the god of Little Suzie that tells her to give food to the hungry. I'm just not buying it. (Please, no cop-out that Little Johnny's god isn't the "One True God" because
you don't know that.)
The great sin of idolatry is precisely making a god out of what is not God - raising beings to the level of Being-Itself, as if they were more important and worthy of our adoration.
And your omniscience gives you the authority to claim that one's god is not the One True God?
I have my own little "personal god" so to speak, something I am not quite sure of and which I only claim as a sort of comfort rather than a true belief. How do YOU know that this being is the One True God, or just an idol imposter trying to lead me astray? You don't.
God isn't some country-club bouncer judging us to determine whether or not "he" will let us in the club. God is not so radically other that God might not be able to communicate with us - e.g., the person who was told the goddess was speaking to him/her and s/he was turning his/her back (sorry for not having time to look up the exact post) - God can communicate with each and every one of us - and indeed does.
That was me, again. I don't believe that what I experienced was a god, male or female. I can't even recall now what experiences I had related to those people, but I know that upon waking up the following morning everything I had said sounded ridiculous and inane.
I believe that people can go through moving spiritual experiences in a vast array of ways, that don't necessarily equate to an encounter with a god. I had several interactions with "spirit guides" that were very beneficial. I resent that certain people would co-opt my moving and supportive spiritual experiences as proof of their "one true god" speaking to everyone in different ways. My experiences do not relfect any god that I am aware of, and I know that they weren't.
Those two (as there were two beings) lead me to renew my search for a spiritual father- nada, zip, zilch. I looked long and hard and found nothing.
People will tell me I obviously didn't look hard enough, but I just laugh. They don't know how I looked or how much energy I expended in the looking.
And to suggest that a mere book would solve all my god-related problems when I couldn't solve themself after spending half a life-time looking is absurd.
That's not to say all of us are fully in tune with God - in fact, most of us usually aren't. But none of us are completely severed from contact with God either. If you exist, it's because you have your being through Being-Itself (duh).
You keep presenting your beliefs as though they were proven fact, something I try not to do.
What if I told you that you WERE god. That god is not outside you, but permeates every fiber of your being? What if I told you that the entirety of existance was god, the very fabric of the universe is one vast living organism, and all planets and stars resides within its body, and we humans are mere virii floating through its intestines? And that because you are intimately and thoroughly a part OF this god-verse, that you, yourself, were also a god? That you have the power to change and focus matter to do your bidding?
Sounds a bit hocus-pocus, doesn't? And if I told you that this is MY vision of god, would you say "oh yeah, sure, because god looks different to all of us?" Nevermind that our visions of god are so radically different as to be totally in opposition to each other.
No, sorry, I cannot believe in a god that presents itself in ways that are so diametrically opposed to each other as to be utterly incomprehensible.
Whew, and now I really need bed. It takes too much energy trying to put all the weird crap in my head into a coherant thought
