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King John's Treasure

C

carole

Gone But Not Forgotten
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I was listening to a program on R4 the other day, about a search for King John's treasure which was reputedly lost in the Wash. Unfortunately I only heard a small part of the programme, which was tantalisingly interesting.

Does anyone have any details about this supposed treasure? Have there been any documened searches for it?

Carole
 
I remember my grandad telling me this story when I was small.

It happened in 1216. There was a French claim to the English throne, and King John was preparing to march on London. While crossing the Nene estuary the tide rose and cut off his baggage train...and it was never seen again.

There are a couple of mentions of it at these sites:

http://www.pro.gov.uk/virtualmuseum/millennium/magna/john/john_1.htm

http://www.great-britain.co.uk/regions/east-england/norfolk.htm


Has anyone got a metal detector, diving gubbins and a corricle?

:)
 
The same thing crossed my mind, Cursed! It was supposed to be his crown jewels, wasn't it?

Shall we make a joint search and share anything we find? I'll have the crown, you can have the orb and sceptre . . .

Carole
 
This was a set reading piece at my school when I was about 9 and it's fascinated me ever since. The book pointed out carefully that no human or animal lives were lost, only the treasure, which seems unlikely.

Wouldn't it be great if an ancient crown were to wash up on a beach?
 
carole said:
I'll have the crown, you can have the orb and sceptre . . .

Carole
Click to expand...


Deal! I'll pop down to the Severn and find myself a corricle. If I start paddling now, I should be there by this time next year.

Bags first dibs on any kingly cloaks.

:)
 
As it was told to me, they were rowing (or sailing or something) across the Wash and the treasure (including the royal seal) fell overboard...

...Of course he really shouldn#'t have kept it tucked away in his dirty socks...

Niles "Lost in the wash..." Calder
 
If the metal detector brings to light a golden anus, we could settle
two Fortean threads with one stroke.

When and where to wear it is a more difficult matter but at least
it has been in the wash for a long time. :rolleyes:
 
I did read something about King John's Treasure a few years ago, it even gave a fairly contempory account of the incident, unfortunatly the books in my library, which is a bit of a black hole at the moment. But, from memory:

KJ & his train were crossing a ford on the Nene, there are a number of times a year that the Nene, has high tides, (not quite bores as on the Severn, but heading for that height), one of these tides got the train...

KJ, continued north to (I think Newark), where he died a few weeks later...

The site of the ford is known, (more or less) & searches have been made, the last one in the 1960's (I think), then they drilled down to a place where large masses metal had been detected, the drilling seemed hopeful, but later digging found nothing. They claimed that the underlying ground had moved between drilling & digging!!!!

Finally, there may have been no treasure in the first place, it is suggested that KJ, was already broke & the journey he was on, may have been an attempt to raise new funds.

If I can find my original info, I will post it, unless, someone gets in first!!!!!
 
Wow ! I wish I'd seen this thread earlier, as it reminded me of something i'd completely forgotten about...

My Granny once told me that one of our ancestors was reported to have been with KJ when he lost his treasure !

I don't know much about it at all (I think I dismissed it as a tall tale at the time !), but would love to find out more now- apparently the chap in question was somebody or other de Goldthorpe, a member of our family who had been given land near Goldthorpe in Yorkshire at the time of the Norman conquest... though what he was doing with KJ in the wash i've no idea... ?

Does anyone know of any good sources of information about this ?
 
King John's retinue

Your "de Goldethorpe" was probably in the King's retinue, as part of his household or affinity. Modern historians love this kind of topic - it falls under the bracket of "prosopography" - however Victorian antiquarians also enjoyed tracking these sort sof associations, if for less intellectual reasons.

Lines of enquiry would be
-Burke's Peerage; if de Goldethorpe was a baron, he'll be in there with all the associations with royalty.
-modern academic books on King John: if de Goldthorpe doesn't feature in the index, look for anything on royal affinities, "bastard feudalism", "households", esp. in the bibliography which will have refs to articles in academic journals.
-a big fat Victorian book on King John.
-the local antiquarian journal for the area that was the Goldethorpe home ground. It'll be called something like "Transactions of the Really Pedantic Antiquarian Society of...." Somebody will have written up the family, and if you can stay awake long enough to read the article, the information's in there. The biggest local library in the area will have it in the reference section.

You can get most material on inter-library loan or by gaining access to a good univeristy library (ask nicely, and they'll probably give you a free day ticket)

Have fun
M
 
That's brilliant Martin & very helpful - thanks ! I'll let you know how I get on ..

Haarp
 
Thanks again Martin !

I managed to have a quick look at the website (in between doing some work !) this afternoon, and it was all very interesting. Some of the things mentioned definately rung a few bells regarding some of the stories that have been circulating in our family for years !

I can't wait to get the chance to show my Mum and my Granny, as her Mum's (would that be my Great-Grand mother ?) maiden name was Goldthorpe..

Haarp
 
Please keep us posted on this one, HAARP, history is much more interesting when it has personal connections like yours.

Carole
 
treasure

Fascinating thread! I've never found any treasure but my kids did when a container ship was wrecked off Lyonesse (Scillies ) > They were collecting lego bits for about two years as the tide swept them in to us. Nice to find someone who can make a genuine connection through history - I've been told we have a coat of arms but i think is's bunkum!
 
I too heard this radio program and noted that one of the contibutors was an author called William Smethurst. He's written a fortean-style novel about King John's treaure called "Wokens Eye" which is quite fun - a mind-reader in present-day Lincolnshire receives messages from a man 800 years ago urging him to seek out the treasure. The story bounces back and forth across the centuries with a realistic (well, to me) detail of life in those times. He's done a couple of other novels with a similar theme of ancient story & modern story intertwined - Pashiphae (England 1400) & Exodus (Moses etc) - both worth catching.
The radio prog. ended by saying that Smethurst et al hope to return to the Wash this spring with a helicopter & geophysics equipment to scientifically scan the area for the treasure, as they had successfully mapped the mediaeval "road" that King John's caravan would have taken (over twenty feet below the modern surface). You'd better get there quick if you want to be first !
 
I seem to recall reading that the loss of the treasure was a bit of a deception because the treasury had been emptying for years and there wasn't that much to be lost in the first place.
 
carole said:
Please keep us posted on this one, HAARP, history is much more interesting when it has personal connections like yours.

Carole
Click to expand...


Thanks Carole !

I'll let you know if I find out anything interesting ....

Haarp x
 
A BBC Summation is Here

Seems like it should either be findable, or it was "recovered" shortly after it was lost.

Which begs the question, if these are the crown jewells that were lost, how many times through history have the English Crown Jewellry been lost and recreated? When King John lost them, how long had they been in use as crown jewells?
 
intaglio said:
I seem to recall reading that the loss of the treasure was a bit of a deception because the treasury had been emptying for years and there wasn't that much to be lost in the first place.
Click to expand...

Could be quite true. John pretty depleted all the resources of the land ransoming his idiot brother over and over.

Ummmm...I DO have the right King John, right?
 
We would like to invite all history and/or conspiracy-lovers who are interested in King John’s treasure to the book launch “The Lost Treasure of King John: The Greatest Mystery of the Fens” 3rd edition. (http://bit.ly/1uriztx)

The Wheatsheaf Hotel at Swineshead have kindly offered to host a book launch for the third edition. The launch will take place at 7.30pm on Thursday 15th January 2015.

Feel free to join us for a complimentary glass of wine (or soft drink if you prefer).
Signed copies of the book will be available with a small discount on the normal retail price.
 
Is that the treasure that was lost when overloaded pack horses sank in mud?
 
escargot1 said:
Is that the treasure that was lost when overloaded pack horses sank in mud?
Click to expand...
It is indeed :) However, there are a lot of theories whether is was really lost or stolen, and whether or not King John was poisoned :)

In the book the author looks into the mediaeval coastline, the landscape at the time, the chronicler's accounts, what the treasure consisted off, the last days of the king, possible poisoning of the king, earlier research and modern attempts to find the treasure. The author come up with a few original theories along the way.

The book contains consideration of the geographical changes in the area in question, the reclamation of the Fens, the historical context of the loss and (coincidental?) onset of the king’s terminal illness, local legends surrounding the mystery, analysis of the accounts of the chroniclers, and of earlier historians and researchers.

There is also more up to date information on local rumours, attempts by adventurers to locate the treasure and my own theories about what might have happened to it (if it were not lost in the Wash).

The book is an attempt to be the most complete source of information on the subject (which is why re-issues involve updating it and rewriting chunks of it!).
 
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