Living ghost theory

[DeeDeeTee]

Apologies if this is old hat, but the thought cropped up yesterday and I hadn't really seen it on the forums.

I was reading Lyall Watson's "Beyond Supernature" (had a childhood nostalga for reading the first one in the 1970s, so I got hold of the the 'new' 1985 updated version) and was reading the bit on out of body experiences and how common they seemed to be. In some cases he had anecdotes where the out-of-body experience an person was going through was indeed observed (from the book):

A little after 2.00am on the morning of Jan 27th, 1957, Martha Johnson saw herself travelling from Plains, Illinios, to visit her home 926 miles away in northern Minnesota. She found her mother in the kitchen and-

after I entered, I leaned up against the dish cupboard with folded arms. I looked at my mother who was bending over something white and doing something with her hands. She did not appear to see me at first, but she finally looked up. I had sort of pleased feeling, and left.

Martha's mother wrote to her daughter the following day to say:

It would have been about two after two, your time. I was pressing a blouse here in the Kitchen. I looked up and there you were at the cupboard just standing smiling at me. I started to speak to you and you were gone. I forgot for a moment where I was. I think the dogs saw you too. They got so excited.

As Lyall Watson develops further could the out-of-body experience provide the basic mechanism for ghost sightings? The example above is extreme but got me thinking. He states up to 1 in 10 people claim to have an out-of-body experience and that 40% of those have done so more than once. The detachment is said to take place in states of relaxation on the verge of sleep (aaah, then that could be something else, but soldiering on....)

At least one basic common and garden theory theme of ghosts seems to be that ghosts are the deceased trapped or visiting in our 'plane' from some 'spirit world'. Now as far as I am aware there has been no reasonable evidence of life after death nor where spirit worlds could exist in relation to ours, and this has been in my eyes a problematic issue. (although I'm always open to evidence and of course recognise that we are rather limited crude creatures when it comes to our awareness to reality )

Now in the age-old method of replacing one theory with little or no evidence with another questionable hypothesis, could ghosts be living people having out of body experiences? This could explain*:

• 
  - Why ghosts are more prevalent at night - as you are more likely to have people in the state to transmit themselves
  - The 'dream-like' quality of some hauntings i.e. ghosts ignoring their surroundings or bizarre behaviour. Possibly also if the transmitter is in an irrational state any emotions can be overpowering - those that get visits from the night hag spring to mind. Could fear and terror be actually generated by the sender and this 'infects' the reciever.
  - Why few ghosts of animals - how many of us dream of being a cat or dog (ok maybe occasionally I'm sure). Also why ghosts fade i.e. where are the ghosts of the Neandertals? Well very few of us will have such images at hand - but we will be thinking about everyday areas of life instead: A memory of a hotel etc...

* in the style of Erik von Daniken - no stats, facts and sweeping generalisations.

This is just a quick stab at this - but I'm not claiming that this is a definitive warts and all theory, just a possible source of ghost sightings. Has anyone else developed this further in the past?

 

[criticalthinker]

Now in the age-old method of replacing one theory with little or no evidence with another questionable hypothesis, could ghosts be living people having out of body experiences?

They may well be responsible for some - in fact there is a case quoted in Hilary Evens' book 'Seeing Ghosts' where someone dreams about a house only to visit it some months later and it be as she had dreamed it even down to her knowing about adaptations made to the property (i.e doors being blocked off). The odd thing was the the owner had been seeing a female aparition who she then identified as being this same lady. The conclusion being that not only did this lady visit the house in some sort orf OBE - but that she was visible to the owner when it ws happening.

However as with all ghost theories it doesn't explain things like anniversary ghosts, crisis apparitions, ghosts of people who are identified by the percipients as clearly being someone they know to be deceased etc....

Finding a 'one size fits all' theory isn't going to happen IMHO as I think the things we collectively call 'ghosts' are actually a bunch of quite varied phenomena

 

[escargot]

We used to have a thread on this sort of thing. Well, on the 'fetch', that sort of thing. I was 'seen' by people a few times, when I couldn't possibly have been there. :shock:

 

[Xanatico]

Well certainly if people have out of body experiences it would seem reasonable that whatever leaves the person´s body is also what leaves someone at death and can create hauntings.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

....there is a case quoted in Hilary Evens' book 'Seeing Ghosts' where someone dreams about a house only to visit it some months later and it be as she had dreamed it even down to her knowing about adaptations made to the property (i.e doors being blocked off). The odd thing was the the owner had been seeing a female aparition who she then identified as being this same lady.

Alas, this is also one of the hoariest of urban legends, which I first encountered in a mid-1940s compilation of similar stories by Bennett Cerf.

 

[rynner2]

Well certainly if people have out of body experiences it would seem reasonable that whatever leaves the person´s body is also what leaves someone at death and can create hauntings.

I was going to say that!

So it's not an either/or situation. Observed OBEs and ghosts could be the result of the same basic mechanism.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Make of this one what you will -

I remember a letter in a early 1950s FATE in which the writer, apparently middle-aged or elderly, told of an experience he'd had during his childhood.

Gazing out his bedroom window one night he watched his elderly backyard neighbor float out of her bedroom window, trailing a line of sparkles.

Suddenly the sparkling line "exploded" and the woman disappeared.

The next morning the witness was informed by his parents that their neighbor had died in her bedroom during the night.

 

[criticalthinker]

....there is a case quoted in Hilary Evens' book 'Seeing Ghosts' where someone dreams about a house only to visit it some months later and it be as she had dreamed it even down to her knowing about adaptations made to the property (i.e doors being blocked off). The odd thing was the the owner had been seeing a female aparition who she then identified as being this same lady.

Alas, this is also one of the hoariest of urban legends, which I first encountered in a mid-1940s compilation of similar stories by Bennett Cerf.

Ah well - it still illustrates the point I was trying to make admirably

 

[Heckler]

Gazing out his bedroom window one night he watched his elderly backyard neighbor float out of her bedroom window, trailing a line of sparkles..

Interesting, makes it sound like she looked like one of those 'space ships' from the Flash Gordon serials.

 

[Doctor_Occupant]

Interesting, makes it sound like she looked like one of those 'space ships' from the Flash Gordon serials.

I think that's how I'd like to go - emitting sparks and a worryingly electrical hum. Much more satisfying than the dreary old tunnel to the light.

 

[DeeDeeTee]

Xanatico wrote:
Well certainly if people have out of body experiences it would seem reasonable that whatever leaves the person´s body is also what leaves someone at death and can create hauntings.

rynner wrote:

I was going to say that!

So it's not an either/or situation. Observed OBEs and ghosts could be the result of the same basic mechanism.

true, as the actual mechanism of OBE'ing is unknown too - so it's a valid point. When the thought came to me I had this idea of transmitters (people OBEing) and recievers (people in dark, scary places - maybe even around most haunted film crews etc...). A bit like antenna broadcasting TV signals to TV sets. With this analogy what leaves the body is 'just' a signal so that at death it stops.

Of course this does suggest some scientific experiments:

We could either

a) Make everyone on the planet stay awake and see if ghost/paranormal behaviour drops
b) Find a planet with one human on it and see if they see anything unusual

I can see that I need a bigger research budget for this one.

 

[James_H]

We used to have a thread on this sort of thing. Well, on the 'fetch', that sort of thing. I was 'seen' by people a few times, when I couldn't possibly have been there. :shock:

I've 'appeared' too, once. I phoned up my friend, and he said 'but you just tapped on my window and ran off!' (I had done no such thing).

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Interesting, makes it sound like she looked like one of those 'space ships' from the Flash Gordon serials.

I always loved the space ships in those serials. The smoke erupts from the rocket nozzles, makes a right angle turn, and heads straight UP!

 

[rynner2]

I always loved the space ships in those serials. The smoke erupts from the rocket nozzles, makes a right angle turn, and heads straight UP!

They were probably using a warp drive.....

 

[OldTimeRadio]

I always loved the space ships in those serials. The smoke erupts from the rocket nozzles, makes a right angle turn, and heads straight UP!

They were probably using a warp drive.....

Since a good percentage of my views on Life and the Universe were birthed out of those old movie serials, that at least explains why they're so warped.

 

[Ria777]

Of course this does suggest some scientific experiments:

[facietious suggestions snipped]

you could have an advanced OOBE practioner try to project themselves into a darkened room with an observation physically present. anecdotally, I have heard of OOBER's managing to manifest poltergeist activity while projecting.

this theory, by the way wouldn't explain the rarity of animal ghosts, unless you take it as a given that animals don't project out during dreams.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Has it in fact been established that the dream state (as commonly understood) is the specific state in which the exteriorization of consciousness is accomplished?

[The above of course assumes that consciousness can be exteriorized.]

 

[Xanatico]

Well most of the stories I´ve heard has been about people on the operating table. I think being anestethized and asleep are quite different things for the brain. But indeed, let us first find out if it actually happens. If someone claims they can do it, have them OOBE into a room and read a secret message or so.

 

[Ria777]

Has it in fact been established that the dream state (as commonly understood) is the specific state in which the exteriorization of consciousness is accomplished?

a number of experienced OOBER's have alleged, that dreamers project during their dreams. regardless of that, you can OOBE through lucid dreams, deliberately or otherwise.

[The above of course assumes that consciousness can be exteriorized.]

no shit, Sherlock! I have had a couple of more lifelike-than-lifelike OOBE's and even I don't know whether to believe them. (given that I have had many more fake-seeming OOBE's.) I tend to think of my lucid dream environments as my cheap-ass wetware virtual realities.

back to the topic of whether consciousness can exteriorize, that assumes that consciousness resides "in" our bodies to begin with. for all we know, we make just pick it up, like WiFi. I talked about that theory in another post.

 

[Ria777]

Well most of the stories I´ve heard has been about people on the operating table. I think being anestethized and asleep are quite different things for the brain. But indeed, let us first find out if it actually happens. If someone claims they can do it, have them OOBE into a room and read a secret message or so.

you have conflated OOBE's with near death experiences. OOBE's have actually a lot more variety than that.

as far as the secret messages (or, actually, strings of random numbers), experimenters have tried that. Susan Blackmore's Beyond the Body details some experimments. Blackmore, by the way, studied OOBE's and eventually found no credible evidence for them at least in her opinion.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

no shit, Sherlock!

That was boilerplate to distance myself from the believe-everything-twice-before-breakfast types.

back to the topic of whether consciousness can exteriorize, that assumes that consciousness resides "in" our bodies to begin with. for all we know, we make just pick it up, like WiFi. I talked about that theory in another post.

That seems to be the most reasonable theory. If the brain functions as a sort of transceiver or rectifier circuit connecting mind and body, our consciousness may be (under normal circumstances) just that portion of our mind with which our brain is in contact at any given instant.

That is, in "brain-dead" individuals it's the "radio" which has burned out. The "program" is intact, but with nothing to receive it.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

It's difficult for me to conceive of the positive evidence that would convince Blackmore. Since any personal experiences she might undergo would be unlikely to dent her disbelief, it's hard to grasp that other peoples' would either.

 

[BouncingAyatolla]

That seems to be the most reasonable theory. If the brain functions as a sort of transceiver or rectifier circuit connecting mind and body, our consciousness may be (under normal circumstances) just that portion of our mind with which our brain is in contact at any given instant.

You might want to look up Bruce Lipton for more on that idea, if you haven't heard of him already. Although more related to looking at DNA as a transceiver, he uses an analogy of the Mars rovers, i.e. what if we are like biological Mars rovers thinking we are autonomous, but in reality receiving our control instructions/pattern from an external source? There are some audio interviews etc. knocking about on the internets.

 

[Ria777]

as a research scientist she decided that she would try to get some hard evidence and not just rely on subjective evidence.

if I had to go by subjective experience, as faded as it has gotten by the years, I would classify at least my first two OOBE experiences as subjectively real as anything.

with OOBE's, though, you usually don't share them with other people, though Robert Monroe wrote in his books about planned shared OOBE's, I think. so you lack the verification aspect not just in a scientific sense but a social one.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

with OOBE's, though, you usually don't share them with other people, though Robert Monroe wrote in his books about planned shared OOBE's, I think. so you lack the verification aspect not just in a scientific sense but a social one.

There's at least one established cyber-group of Astral Projectors who claim to solve serial crimes by meeting in the astral, tracking down (together) the serial murderer/rapist/whatever and then "tagging" him with a kind of psychic tell-tale mark or glow. (One of the members is a working, veteran homicide detective.)

Are they sincere? If they're not, nobody else is.

Are they effective? Well, I can tell you this - when they launch their expeditions the miscreant has very often been located within two to five days, even in cases threatening to go cold.

 

[Ria777]

could you give us a link? I feel suspicous of this, though would like to know more. to try to make up my mind. not suspicious of their honesty, more of their perhaps interpreting facts in a certain ways. (wearing my skeptic hat now.)

by the way I found a dedicated messageboard thread on OOBE's.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Ria, I've answered you by PM.