• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Militant Atheism

Ghostdog

I asked you to leave me alone. I made it clear that I did not wish to discuss things further with you.

You hold one opinion.

I hold a differing opinion.

I dont wish to bludgeon you into agreeing with me. Unfortunately you appear intent on bludgeoning me into surrender.

I suggest that you quit stalking me. Try acting like an adult for a change.
 
ramonmercado.
You have issue with me, pm me. you have a problem with my post, report it and speak to a mod.

Now, lets get back to the thread.
 
ghostdog19 said:
Mythopoeika said:
No, I'm not Dawkins. Sorry to disappoint you.
Atkins? ;)
Mythopoeika said:
I've recently finished reading The God Delusion, and I don't recall seeing any points where Dawkins contradicts himself. He seemed to have taken great care to qualify all the statements he made in the book.
Also, I saw the Rod Liddle program. Complete tosh, because the man is a journalist - if he spots an opportunity, he'll do anything for a few pennies.
And I suppose they give out copies of The God Delusion for free, do they? :p

Nope, I'm not famous (or infamous).

Re your last comment - it's all in the attitude. Dawkins is an academic, and doesn't deliberately set out to do something for money. Money is not his prime motivator. It's purely incidental that The God Delusion is selling so well. In fact, the hardback is being sold in places for the knock-down price of £10, which means he isn't making as much money as he could be making.
Journalists, on the other hand, tend to be quite ruthless and mercenary. They have the same ethics as lawyers, estate agents, car dealers etc.
 
Ghostdog.

Take your obsession elsewhere. You are the one who is derailing this thread.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Journalists, on the other hand, tend to be quite ruthless and mercenary. They have the same ethics as lawyers, estate agents, car dealers etc.
So you wouldn't say Dawkins was ruthless or mercenary?
 
ghostdog19 said:
Mythopoeika said:
Journalists, on the other hand, tend to be quite ruthless and mercenary. They have the same ethics as lawyers, estate agents, car dealers etc.
So you wouldn't say Dawkins was ruthless or mercenary?

No, I don't think Dawkins is ruthless or mercenary. See my earlier comment as to why I don't think he is ruthless or mercenary. He's an academic.

End of silly discussion, I'm off to do some work.
 
The problem with secularism
Phillip Blond and Adrian Pabst
Published: December 21, 2006

LONDON: Geopolitically, the resurgence of religion is dangerous and spreading. From Islamic fundamentalism, American evangelism to Hindu nationalism, each creed demands total conformity and absolute submission to their own particular variant of God's revelation.

Common to virtually all versions of contemporary religious fanaticism is a claim to know divine intention directly, absolutely and unquestionably. As a result, many people demand a fresh liberal resistance to religious totalitarianism.

But it is important to realize that this reduction of a transcendent religion to confirmation of one's own personal beliefs represents an ersatz copy of liberal humanism. Long before religious fundamentalism, secular humanists reduced all objective codes to subjective assertion by making man the measure of all things and erasing God from nature.

This was a profoundly secular move: It simply denied natural knowledge of God and thereby eliminated theology from the sciences. Religion, stripped of rationality, became associated with a blind unmediated faith — precisely the mark of fanaticism. Thus religious fundamentalism constitutes an absence of religion that only true religion can correct.

Although the cultured despisers of religion are once again making strident appeal to secular values and unmediated reason, they do not realize that the religious absolutism they denounce is but a variant of their own fundamentalism returned in a different guise.

Richard Dawkins's barely literate polemic "The God Delusion" declares that religion is irrational without ever explaining the foundations of reason itself. Sam Harris's diatribe "The End of Faith" has to falsify history by claiming that Hitler and Stalin were religious in order to make its case for the malign influence of faith. The attacks on religion are becoming ever more shrill and desperate — a clear sign of atheist anxiety about the status of their own first principles and explanatory frameworks.

This atheist apprehension is well founded, as the latest developments in biology, physics and philosophy all open the door to a revivified theology and a religious metaphysics.

Darwinism is close to being completely rewritten. Hitherto, it had been assumed that forms of life are the product of essentially arbitrary processes, such that (as Stephen Jay Gould put it) if we ran evolution again life would look very different. However, evolution shows biological convergence. As Simon Conway Morris, a professor of biology at Cambridge University, has argued, evolution is not arbitrary: If it ran again, the world would look much as it already does.

Nor is natural selection now thought to be the main driver of biological change. Rather, life displays certain inherency, such that the beings that come about are a product of their own integral insistence. All of which means that there is no necessary conflict between evolution and theology. Indeed, evolution is no more arbitrary than God is deterministic. Similarly, in cosmology and physics the idea that the world was produced by chance has long been dismissed. The extreme precision of the gravitational constant that allows a universe like ours to exist requires an explanation. Rather than envisioning the world as an intended creation, secular physics posits infinite numbers of multiverses existing alongside our own. Thus, the sheer uniqueness of our universe is qualified by the existence of all other possible universes.

The trouble is that this supposition sounds more bizarre than religion. Moreover, to posit this paradigm leads to the Matrix hypothesis that we are actually only a virtual simulation run by other universes more powerful and real. So religion finds itself in the strange position of defending the real world against those who would make us merely virtual phenomena.

Philosophically, if one wants to defend the idea of objective moral truths, it appears ineluctably to require some sort of engagement with theology. For if there are universals out there, we need to explain why they care about us or indeed how we can know them at all. And if human beings do not make these truths, then it seems an account of the relationship between ultimate truths and human life can only be religious.

Thus we are witnessing a real intellectual return to religion that cannot be reduced to the spread of fanaticism. It is also becoming clear that secularism reinforces rather than overcomes both religious fundamentalism and militant atheism.

In the new, post-secular world, religion cannot be eliminated and, properly figured, is in fact our best hope for a genuine alternative to the prevailing extremes.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/21/opinion/edblond.php
 
lupinwick said:
To be honest, I don't think religion is to blame as such - rather the viscious nature of certain human animals who are capable of taking a fairly innocuous idea and using it to hide behind whilest committing atrocities.

I've yet to see any holy book jump off a shelf and run down the street and kill someone. Ideas alone don't kill people - it always needs a human hand to do that part. Even the shittest, most stupid, most backward and most antagonistic religion can't kill alone.
 
jefflovestone said:
lupinwick said:
To be honest, I don't think religion is to blame as such - rather the viscious nature of certain human animals who are capable of taking a fairly innocuous idea and using it to hide behind whilest committing atrocities.
I've yet to see any holy book jump off a shelf and run down the street and kill someone. Ideas alone don't kill people - it always needs a human hand to do that part. Even the shittest, most stupid, most backward and most antagonistic religion can't kill alone.
I tend to agree. And it's also said you cannot kill an idea. Long live Freddy Kruger.
 
Good article Ghostdog. With regards to science and religion, Pope Leo XIII* said that "there can be no question of victory where there is no conflict, and that only men who were ignorant of the true nature of religion and of science could consider them mutually antagonistic."

*died 1903
 
Mythopoeika said:
No, I don't think Dawkins is ruthless or mercenary/He's an academic.
The viewpoint of an 'academic' of The God Deception:

The Antitheism of Richard Dawkins: A Review of The God Delusion
December 11, 2006
Vox Populi, Science & Nature, Religion
By John Bambenek

You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, but you can tell a lot from what comments make it on the back of the book. So it is with New York Times bestseller The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. Observe the following review from Philip Pullman: “Many religious leaders are men who, it’s obvious to anyone but their deranged followers, are willing to sanction vicious cruelty in the service of their faith.” While it is ironic that those who would defend relativism shroud themselves in the robe of self-righteous sanctimony, this book is not one of reason. It is one of hate.

It is not a hate caused by someone who has done you grave harm such as killing your family. It is not even a hate caused on some petty slight because you got cut off in traffic. It’s a deep-seated hate that consumes and overwhelms. It is a hate without explanation; it is blind and irrational. Dawkins does not present a case for atheism — he presents a polemic for antitheism. His first principle is that religion is a grave harm to humanity, and he then proceeds to fit the facts around that principle.

The book itself is separated into two main components. The first is a philosophical attack against religion and the existence of God. The second is a long series of case studies showing the supposed harm of religion on humanity. Dawkins is clearly an intelligent and rational being, but throughout the book you can see the struggle between his reason and his irrational hate. Unfortunately for him, the hate usually wins out.

The first portion of the text is rather unremarkable and boring, as it contains many of the same arguments that have been hashed and rehashed for centuries. However, one argument stands out: that those who hold God exists have argued from “personal experience” that God exists — they know He has touched them somehow in their lives. Dswkins responds by saying that some people experience pink elephants.

With one swift stroke, not only has Dawkins dismembered any proof for religion, but he has annihilated the entire body of human knowledge. Imagine using the argument that some people see pink elephants in a courtroom to discredit a witness on the stand. It is nothing short of intellectual laziness. There are criteria to judge which experiences are credible and which are not, and that includes religious ones.

Dawkins himself brings up the alleged miraculous apparition in Fatima, Portugal, where thousands saw the sun dance in the sky. He disregards “collective hallucinations” as a legitimate explanation, but then quickly runs away from dealing with the event. For that matter, he ignores many well-documented miracles revolving around Mary or the Eucharist. He simply accepts the facts that support his point and tries to disregard the rest, while his rationality can’t completely ignore the unfriendly facts that continue to surface.

The second portion of the book takes the more infamous religious figures and sets them up to show how corrupt religion is. First, Dawkins doesn’t seem to recognize a difference between being religious and being fundamentalist/absolutist, as he uses the terms interchangeably. Second, case studies are fine to help fill in gaps when accompanied by some other information, but case studies can very easily be used to justify negative stereotypes in the absence of real facts. Every stereotype has its poster child. I can do a case study on the stereotypical black criminal; it doesn’t mean I’ve proven all blacks to be cutthroat murders.

In addition, some of the case studies are just plain ludicrous. There is a common (yet completely devoid of fact) charge that Pius XII helped the Nazis slaughter the Jews. The proof? That the pope didn’t issue a statement against the Nazis, despite the fact that hundreds of thousands of Jews were protected by the Church. We can forgive an academic mistaking action with making statements; however, the leading Jewish figures of the time all commended the Church for her aid.

Then there is the oft repeated statement that religion causes wars. However, when Dawkins faces the fact that the thoroughly secular governments of Nazi Germany, Stalin’s USSR and Mao’s China are responsible for the biggest atrocities in recorded history, he quickly abandons any possible connection between those governments and antitheism. He is unable to consider that many wars were not fought over religion, but that religion played a role in wars that would have taken place anyway. For example, the conflict in Northern Ireland is often characterized as a struggle between Catholics and Protestants. The fact is that there are three counties that the Irish (who have a national religion) believe are theirs and the English (who also have a national religion) believe rightly belong to them. The conflict is a geopolitical one. I’ve not heard of a bombing in Belfast because Henry VIII’s fertility issues.

Dawkins mentions the story of Edgardo Mortara, a child of Jewish parents who was baptized secretly and subsequently taken from his Jewish parents. Dawkins avoids dealing with any of the controversy surrounding the incident, including Edgardo’s own testimony, because it conflicts with his antitheistic principle. He also states, falsely, on page 312, that no consent is required for infant baptism (Canon 868 in the Code of Canon Law states that in all but the most exceptional circumstances parental consent is required).

He labels Mother Teresa a hypocrite for speaking out against abortion but never mentions exactly what the nature of her hypocrisy is. In fact, when Dawkins enters the squalor that Mother Teresa served in, perhaps then he might be fit to stand over her in judgment.

Dawkins never mentions that the religious give more in charity, volunteer more, and are generally active in trying to make their communities a better place to live. He brings up figures that have long been ignored or have shown themselves to be frauds such as Jerry Fawell, Ted Haggert, Fred Phelps, and so on. He pre-selects the most scandalous religious figures and casually ignores the noblest ones. He makes sweeping generalizations that simply aren’t true. Speaking only from the Catholic perspective, I know of no serious Catholic theologian or cleric that says unquestioned faith is a virtue.

Yet his rationality does creep in from time to time. He is skeptical of the onslaught against the Catholic Church in the wake of the sex abuse crisis. While one pedophiliac priest is one too many, there are many other institutions that have far greater problems with sex abuse and covering it up (i.e. Planned Parenthood, high school guidance counselors, etc). He doesn’t subscribe to the widespread censorship in the name of “separation of church and state” either, realizing that the Bible is important for literature and a proper understanding of history.

Throughout the book, you can see the internal unconscious struggle in Dawkins between irrational hate and reason. Occasionally his reason creeps to the surface only to be shoved back down again. This latest missive of antitheistic thought, while celebrated by cognoscenti as a defense of reason, is a radical departure from reason. Dawkins states he despises confrontational gladiatorial contests that substitute for intelligent discourse these days, yet he just can’t help himself from descending into misanthropic zeal. The book remains a rehash of pop philosophy and loosely strung-together anecdotes, half-truths, and outright falsehoods. A defense of reason? Hardly.

John Bambenek is the Assistant Politics Editor for Blogcritics and is an academic professional for the University of Illinois. He is a freelance columnist who blogs at Part-Time Pundit and the executive director of The Tumaini Foundation which helps AIDS orphans and other children in Tanzania to get an education. He is the current owner of BlogSoldiers, a blog-only traffic exchange.

big link fixed - stu
 
Also, I saw the Rod Liddle program. Complete tosh, because the man is a journalist - if he spots an opportunity, he'll do anything for a few pennies.

An award winning journalist I read somewhere. You wouldn’t have thought so from this piece of rubbish. Regardless of the subject matter it was just a poorly made piece if television.
 
ramonmercado said:
Ghostdog.

Take your obsession elsewhere. You are the one who is derailing this thread.
ramon, enough with the ad hominem's now. Ghostdog's agreed to disagree several times, and from the way I see it he's actually moved the discussion along quite nicely.

You both agree to disgaree, so now drop it. On with the thread.
 
Stu

If you check you will see that I was the person who wished to drop this a long while back (see below). Ghostdog continued to browbeat me. I have dropped it. I suggest that you ascertain all of the facts and check out the background before you intervene.

20-12-2006 19:06 Post subject:

I'm only teasing you. I repect Dawkins but I am also prepared to criticise him. If you check you'll see that I had the infant Richard being visited by 3 wise men, who, among other things, brought him the gift of arrogance. I genuinely disagree with you on how Dawkins uses the Bible in comparison to the far right.

Just have to agree to disagree.
 
ramonmercado said:
Stu

If you check you will see that I was the person who wished to drop this a long while back (see below). Ghostdog continued to browbeat me. I have dropped it. I suggest that you ascertain all of the facts and check out the background before you intervene.
All I'll say again is that you have both agreed to disagree, so now let's drop it. On with the thread.
 
Just noticed your sig Ramon. Very interesting. Of course it makes a huge mistake in comparing Abrahamic religion to guns. Guns are created for the sole purpose of creating destruction, causing damage and death. A gun, if it is bening used as it was intended, can probably never be used in a constructive way. On the other hand, religion - Abrahamic or not Abrahamic can, if used properly, be constructive and beneficial for humanity.

That is the problem with Dawkins, very soundbitey but doesn't hold up to close scrutiny.
 
Ghostdog, this 'academic' you have quoted has got it wrong.

For example, the conflict in Northern Ireland is often characterized as a struggle between Catholics and Protestants. The fact is that there are three counties that the Irish (who have a national religion) believe are theirs and the English (who also have a national religion) believe rightly belong to them. The conflict is a geopolitical one.

Most English people (and I think that was another error, in that he probably meant 'British') do not give two hoots for Northern Ireland one way or another. It is largely the protestant Ulstermen who wish that Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kindgom. England doesn't have a national religion, either - officially, it is part of a largely secular society, within which state and church are separate. The fact that there exists a Church of England has nothing to do with it being the national religion of England - it's merely a historical artefact, and one not taken all that seriously by a large number of its nominal congegation (such as myself!) Frankly, if England has an unofficial religion, then it's probably 'can't be arsedness'!

Therefore, I conclude that the view of this so called academic is as flawed as what he claims of Dawkins. He is, therefore, a load of rubbish.
 
Guns are created for the sole purpose of creating destruction, causing damage and death.

What about flare guns? Aren't they supposed to help ... save life?

Ho-ho.

So even guns, if used properly, can be beneficial and constructive for humanity. Yes indeed!
 
barfing_pumpkin said:
Ghostdog, this 'academic' you have quoted has got it wrong.

Therefore, I conclude that the view of this so called academic is as flawed as what he claims of Dawkins. He is, therefore, a load of rubbish.

the academic is in essence correct though. the conflict has had more to do with national identity than a religious one. in previous eras there may have been little distinction but with the increasing secularisation of britain and socialistic tendencies within republicanism in the late 20th century (which is the relevant conflict here) it is very much political and nationalistic.
 
the academic is in essence correct though. the conflict has had more to do with national identity than a religious one. in previous eras there may have been little distinction but with the increasing secularisation of britain and socialistic tendencies within republicanism in the late 20th century (which is the relevant conflict here) it is very much political and nationalistic.

Indeed. However, if the academic is prepared to support his argument - that he doesn't like the book - by picking away at the facts that Darkins presents, then then that academic should at least get his facts correct in the first place. Otherwise, why should we accept his verdict on the book as being worthwhile?

Nah, I just think he's rubbish. Not worth the quote, really.
 
So, I assume by the same measure, you don't think much of Dawkins either?
 
barfing_pumpkin said:
the academic is in essence correct though. the conflict has had more to do with national identity than a religious one. in previous eras there may have been little distinction but with the increasing secularisation of britain and socialistic tendencies within republicanism in the late 20th century (which is the relevant conflict here) it is very much political and nationalistic.

Indeed. However, if the academic is prepared to support his argument - that he doesn't like the book - by picking away at the facts that Darkins presents, then then that academic should at least get his facts correct in the first place. Otherwise, why should we accept his verdict on the book as being worthwhile?

Nah, I just think he's rubbish. Not worth the quote, really.
If that is the only point you can pick out of quite a long article, picking many problems in Dawkins work, then does that make Dawkins book the most rubbish and worthless book ever written?
 
rjmrjmrjm said:
Just noticed your sig Ramon. Very interesting. Of course it makes a huge mistake in comparing Abrahamic religion to guns. Guns are created for the sole purpose of creating destruction, causing damage and death. A gun, if it is bening used as it was intended, can probably never be used in a constructive way. On the other hand, religion - Abrahamic or not Abrahamic can, if used properly, be constructive and beneficial for humanity.

That is the problem with Dawkins, very soundbitey but doesn't hold up to close scrutiny.

He was using guns as a metaphor. It could be swords or poisoned koolaid etc. Anyway abrahamic religions generally lead to mass slaughter & destruction.

Guns can be used to gather food. Who has ever died from lack of religion?

Anyway its only my sig and not a contribution to the discussion here.
 
This is a review of a previous Dawkins book, A Devils Chaplain which I did for the Fortean Times. It was published in FT July 2003 (the opening para was deleted).

A Devils Chaplain:

Selected Essays by

Richard Dawkins

(Weidenfeld & Nicolson, £16.99) ISBN 0-297-82973-4

“A fire breathing Richard Dawkins public lecture.” Such is the image of Dawkins summoned up by Colin Bennett in “Politics of the Imagination”. Dawkins is damned by some Forteans as well as Creationists.

This eclectic collection of penetrating essays converges on a number of themes, each of which is set off by a brief preamble. In true Fortean spirit Dawkins engages “Postmodernism in the opening preamble: “It is my belief that it means nothing at all except in the restricted context of architecture where it originated”.

Charles Darwin (Dawkins great hero) provides the title for the book: “What a book a Devil’s Chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering low and horridly cruel works of nature.” (Darwin to Joseph Hooker, 1856)

The collection opens with Dawkins setting forth his stall as this eras Devil’s Chaplain. While he supports Darwinism as a scientist, he is Anti-Darwinist in his politics as he writes: “We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the replicators.” He illustrates how every use of contraception is victory of the brain over Darwinian designs. Whether Dawkins is writing for the general public or academics, he remains a true and inspirational educator.

Evolution and religion, the twin tropes run through the compilation. They become the thesis and anti-thesis as he battles for his synthesis of reason and logic over authoritarian “Revelation”. He argues that Evolution means we are descended from Simian ancestors back through to single celled life forms.

If this is accepted then how can you countenance Transubstantiation, Mary’s corporeal ascension into Heaven and the rest of the beliefs which make up the basis of Christianity, Judaism and Islam? Dawkins is surely the (rationalist) Devils Chaplain, and an unrepentant apologist for atheism who questions the very underpinnings of religious belief. Melville wrote of: “The colourless all colour of atheism.” Well, Dawkins is anything but pallid as he wields his harpoon of logic against the crystal gazers, astrologers, Crystal Cancer Cures, and the mumbo jumbo of the “Postmodernists”. These Moby Dicks will not escape!

He melds the tropes of Science and Religion in an essay, ‘The great Conversion’, here he shouts no truce with Kings and dismisses the suggestion that in someway scientific findings can successfully be merged with religious belief. To Dawkins religion itself is a disease, or perhaps a potentially fatal virus for which the only cure is a good, clean scientific mentality.

But this isn’t just a collection of anti-clerical abuse; the human Dawkins emerges. There is a poignant letter to his daughter advocating the joys of resolute judgment; a touching accolade to his former evolutionary sparring partner, the late Stephen Jay Gould; a tribute to his friend the novelist Douglas Adams; and an impressive honouring of Africa, native land of the author and motherland of our species. 'We have Africa in our blood and Africa has our bones,' says Dawkins. 'We are all Africans.'

Some Forteans will of course wilt under Dawkins fiery breath but he fair warms the cockles of my heart.
 
I doubt very much if Dawkins meant, Flare Guns, Nail Guns, Glue Guns, Silicone Filler Guns or Super Soaker 34000XPWHAYHEY Water Guns.

Even a gun used to hunt with causes death. Not human death, but still destruction.
 
rjmrjmrjm said:
I doubt very much if Dawkins meant, Flare Guns, Nail Guns, Glue Guns, Silicone Filler Guns or Super Soaker 34000XPWHAYHEY Water Guns.

Even a gun used to hunt with causes death. Not human death, but still destruction.

That doesnt get away from the fact that for about 3,000 years the A religions have been laying waste to the Earth. Sometimes they used guns. Sometimes swords, but hey, in apogrom, they'll use stones if necessary.
 
He blames abrahamic religions but what about the other sort? they are just as bad.
 
Kondoru said:
He blames abrahamic religions but what about the other sort? they are just as bad.

They havent killed as many people or conqured most world to civilise the natives.
 
Back
Top