move over mickey, its moses's turn now!

[Melf]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4678897.stm

Bible theme park wins charity status

The Holy Land Experience, a bible-based theme park that is more about Moses than Mickey Mouse, has won its four-year fight to avoid paying taxes.

Set up in 1991, the $16m park tries to take visitors 3,000 years back in time, creating an authentic Holy Land full of sand, centurions and the Bible's biggest names.

Visitors to the site in Orlando, Florida, can watch a musical version of the crucifixion, examine a 45 foot model of Jerusalem in AD66, or browse texts and tablets in the Scriptorium.

Other attractions include a recreation of Herod's Temple, Jesus's garden tomb, a street-market complete with costume-clad traders, and a Bedouin tent.

"It is our sincere hope that you will see God and his word exalted, that you will be encouraged in your search for enduring truth and the ultimate meaning of life," the Holy Land experience says on its website.

'It's a business'

Despite its emphasis on entertainment, the Holy Land Experience has argued that it should be classed along with churches and museums and be exempt from property taxes.


After a long legal battle, Judge Cynthia MacKinnon agreed.

In her ruling, the judge said that it had not been proved that the Holy Land Experience was using its profits for anything other than "evangelising and worshipping".

The Holy Land Experience was facing a demand for unpaid property taxes dating from 2001 that almost totalled $1m, a sum its lawyers argued would have forced the park to close down.

Orange County Property Appraiser Bill Donegan is deciding whether to appeal the judge's decision, saying that the park is different to other churches.

"None of those that I know charge $30 admission," he observed. "It's a business."

The Holy Land Experience, which said it does not attract enough visitors to break even, is funded by Zion's Hope Inc, a not-for-profit religious organisation that cites its goal as converting Jews to Christianity.

"Zion's Hope seeks to graciously proclaim to the Jewish people their need for personal salvation through Jesus the Messiah and to proclaim the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to all men regardless of race, religion, gender, education, or national origin," the group's website said.

(c) bbc 05

(may have to change title)

 

[mossy_sloth]

Visitors to the site in Orlando, Florida, can watch a musical version of the crucifixion

Classy.

"It is our sincere hope that you will see God and his word exalted, that you will be encouraged in your search for enduring truth and the ultimate meaning of life," the Holy Land experience says on its website.

It might be just me, but the ideas "theme park" and "enduring truth" just don't seem congruent.

"Zion's Hope seeks to graciously proclaim to the Jewish people their need for personal salvation through Jesus the Messiah"

graciously? how do you graciously announce to a tradition far older than your own that they are wrong? I know they go on to say that they proclaim the gospel to all men (regardless of gender! LOL), but why focus on Jews? There is definitely some distinction between Jews and other people going on there...I wonder what that is and why? Maybe they see Jews as already halfway there..just in need of a push in the right direction (contemptible if you ask me), or maybe it's a kind of self assertion.

alright I'm not going to turn this into a full scale rant as I am not familiar with the group...

 

[krobone]

I agree with you, light. It's arrogance and deluded thinking.

But the whole thing stinks - there is no way they should be granted church status. Maybe they should start a Christian chain of dry cleaners and have us taxpayers prop that up, too.

Man, it's hard to talk about this without ranting... :?

 

[mossy_sloth]

oh please rant away Krobone, I'd hate to be the only one!

I'm not anti-Christian nor anti-theme park, nor anti-both combined. But I just don't see how this can be tax-exempt. On the Zion's Hope FAQ page it says:

Does The Holy Land Experience accept donations? The Holy Land Experience – a ministry of Zion’s Hope – is a not-for-profit Christian organization. Ticket prices do not fully cover the cost of our ministry endeavors. If you are blessed by what you see on our visit and would like to make a tax-deductible donation to help with our ministry so that others may be blessed by the exhibits and presentations, please stop by Guest Services in the Jerusalem Market. You may also make a donation online.

All I can say is they must be getting quite a few donations if the information about the $9.5 million worth of improvements is true. Notice, however, that they don't mention the proceeds from their merchandise ("Old Scroll Shop" with not just books but jewellery, art, clothing, gifts and "holiday products" ??? for sale). I just find all this a bit hard to swallow.

I found this as well:

No, There Is NOT a Holy Roller Coaster
-- R. Jonathan Moore

In Florida, Orange County property appraiser William Donegan wants to tax Christ's tomb. One can only assume that his position is not an elected one.

Donegan is seeking to generate revenue not just from Jesus' tomb, but also from the city of Jerusalem, the Qumran caves, and the Wilderness Tabernacle -- all elements of Orlando's biblically themed theme park Holy Land Experience (HLE). Open since February of this year -- and claiming "It's Been 2000 Years Since the World Has Seen Anything Like This!" -- Holy Land Experience has averaged around 1000 visitors per day.

The HLE first made ripples in the local pond several months ago, when Jewish groups protested that the new park and its creator, Jewish convert to Christianity and Baptist minister Marvin Rosenthal, were targeting their community for evangelism. That grumbling having subsided, the Holy Land Experience has now attracted the county assessor's attention. The organization that built and runs the HLE, Zion's Hope Inc., has an exemption from taxes, as do virtually all nonprofit religious enterprises. But Donegan believes that the HLE more closely resembles Disney World than the Sisters of Mercy. Under his plan, Zion's Hope would remain tax exempt while the HLE theme park, a $16 million-dollar, fifteen-acre facility, would be taxed like any other local entertainment venue.

At first glance Donegan's stand seems straightforward and reasonable. The HLE is "not a museum, not a school, and not a church," Donegan told the Orlando Sentinel, but a business, plain and simple. It charges admission ($17 for adults, $12 for children), it sells food and trinkets, so it must be taxed. Zion's Hope has responded by claiming that the HLE is not Sea World. Other parks may seek to entertain, but ours is a "Bible-believing Christian ministry," Rosenthal told the Orlando Sentinel last year. The HLE gives his organization "a wonderful opportunity to teach biblical truth" to whomever might wander through the turnstiles of this "Christ-honoring Christian venue." The Baptist minister hopes to inspire introspection, awe, reverence, and a new or renewed interest in spiritual questions. And, naturally, Rosenthal wants the HLE " to point all men to Jesus as the Lamb of God." Anyone who has visited the HLE can attest that one's senses are relentlessly confronted with an unabashedly Christocentric message.

Is the HLE truly an evangelistic ministry, or merely a new version of the Magic Kingdom, with Mickey and Minnie replaced by Mary Magdalene and a show-tune singing Roman centurion? Granted, one might struggle to find the purported evangelistic utility in wares for sale in the Old Scroll Shop or Methuselah's Mosaics. And few visitors, I think it is safe to say, have come to Jesus at the Oasis Palms Café while washing down their Goliath Burgers with Thirsty Camel Coolers.

But this only highlights the critical question in this dispute: who should decide what counts for a tax-exempt religious endeavor? If Zion's Hope loudly professes that the HLE is designed to honor the Christian savior and disseminate his message, should that be enough to satisfy the government? This would certainly keep church and state far enough from each other to honor the First Amendment's purpose. But few situations are that simple. For example, the Christian Coalition no doubt considers its political activities part of a larger Christian ministry, but most citizens are comfortable-if not grateful-that it is treated like other political lobbying organizations. How can the state keep track of religious non-profits while remaining aloof enough to avoid unconstitutionally interfering in matters of faith?

Zion's Hope has much at stake in the outcome of this dispute. Orange County has billed the organization for over $28,000 in property taxes this year, and next year, with the inclusion of new buildings and park improvements to the assessed value, the bill promises to rise sharply. Next summer the HLE plans to open a $9.5 million Scriptorium to display thousands of artifacts and manuscripts, no doubt accelerating even further the organization's potential tax bill. No wonder Rosenthal has promised to "take this to the highest court required" in order to prevail.

Zion's Hope will be assisted in pressing its case by two conservative Christian legal advocacy groups, the Liberty Counsel and the American Center for Law and Justice. Ironies abound when those dedicated to keeping government hands off religion have once again turned to an agent of the state for relief, but these well-funded and -organized groups are exactly the right allies to have in a case like this. Whether or not they can convince a judge that a theme park really isn't a theme park remains to be seen.

-- R. Jonathan Moore is a doctoral candidate in the history of Christianity at the University of Chicago Divinity School.

source

 

[Anome]

Visitors to the site in Orlando, Florida, can watch a musical version of the crucifixion

Classy.

What? Like Jesus Christ Superstar?

 

[Anonymous]

A pamphlet called Public Information, Slogans & Signs (PISS for short) for this park states:

• *Thou shalt not drop litter
  *Thou shalt not walk on the grass
  *The lord must have granted thee height greater than this sign or thou will not be permitted entry through the gates of this ride.
  *Loaves and fishes bar this way.
  *'Laying of Hands' First aid centre
  *Lost Children and Souls this way.
  *Every hour on the hour 3D brainwashing simulation in the main hall.
  *Thieves will be smited.
  *Please do not leave small boys in the company of any of our male members of staff.
  *Thou shalt not leave a jew even if thou entered as one.

Now Hand Over your DOLLER$

 

[mossy_sloth]

Visitors to the site in Orlando, Florida, can watch a musical version of the crucifixion

Classy.

What? Like Jesus Christ Superstar?

Never seen it. Can't comment.

 

[rynner2]

I find the very existence of this theme park offensive, let alone any tax swindles it may be involved in.

American fundies on one side, Islamic fundies on the other - no wonder the world's going to hell.

Thought for the day:

Without religion, there'd be no Hell.

Discuss.

 

[Anonymous]

I think the problem is organised religion.

A religious loonie all on his/her own is not likely to do all that much harm but put that loonie in charge of some others that think in a vaguely similar manner and he or she may be able to manipulate the others.

Would all the religious fights in Ireland have happened if everybody kept their mouth shut about what they believed? The orange order march would become 'that orange order loonie going for a stroll'.

Israil would be friends with their boarder nations assuming there is still a need for boarders.

:imo: An organised religion is nothing more than a recognised cult


Street and Door Preachers

Personally I think it would be good to ban all forms of religion in the streets. By this I mean that standing in the street and yelling, handing out leaflets, wearing or holding or putting up a sign, stopping someone and attempting to talk to them about religion would all become illegal. So would knocking on your door to discuss it.

I have personally seen what harm a charming good looking mormon street loonie can do when the young lady he is talking to is stressed because of recent trauma. They seem trained to spot these weakened people and for a while she was really taken in. She isolated herself from her boyfriend and her family for months before coming to her senses.

There is a Christain loonie in the centre of Bristol with a really big mouth yelling that we will all go to hell due to sin but I have noticed two things about him spotted during my lunchbreaks.
1: He has an eye for the mini skirts passing by that is just as sharp as my own. Evidently lust is ok then.
2: He occasionally has someome come up to him and take a leaflet from him. However I have noticed that there is a group of people that do this on a rotation system. So his assistants take a leaflet to try and trick others to do the same. Its pretty transparent though and I have never seen anyone else take one.

Imagine how nice it would be for all streets to be clear of any predatory religious influences.

I have already written to my MP regarding this topic and also about religious loonies calling at the door. I got the usual wooly MP reply but my MP has changed so perhaps I will try again.


Right I am off to hug a tree

 

[Leaferne]

Re: Christian theme park

Didn't Ned Flanders try this already?

 

[mossy_sloth]

Personally I think it would be good to ban all forms of religion in the streets. By this I mean that standing in the street and yelling, handing out leaflets, wearing or holding or putting up a sign, stopping someone and attempting to talk to them about religion would all become illegal. So would knocking on your door to discuss it.

While I agree with you that evangelising can be intrusive and unwelcome, the sort of measures you propose may be a little oppressive. I mean, would you agree that environmental, anit-war, animal rights etc protests should not be allowed also? Or that their reading material, pamphlets, public speakers should be banned?

Because basically these people are fulfilling a similar desire, that is, to make people aware of something they feel passionate about and see as vitally important. Of couse there are always going to be extremists from all categories, but surely you can't target religion alone in this proposed ban.

And hey! At least we don't live in one of those countries where sermons are broadcast over the street through loud speakers! Being woken up, whilst in India, at 4am by a pentecostal service at earbleed levels was slightly disorienting and, when it continued for the next 48 hours, I seriously thought I was going to lose my sanity.

Didn't Ned Flanders try this already?

I thought the idea was familiar!!

 

[James_H]

I think the problem is organised religion.


Would all the religious fights in Ireland have happened if everybody kept their mouth shut about what they believed? The orange order march would become 'that orange order loonie going for a stroll'.

I think that fight's about more than religion.

 

[krobone]

And hey! At least we don't live in one of those countries where sermons are broadcast over the street through loud speakers!

Shit - don't give them any ideas! :shock:

 

[sunsplash1]

Two rides I'd hate to miss:-
The parting of the red sea and the exodus


On second thoughts a wander throught the Armagedon village might be nicer...

 

[Anonymous]

And hey! At least we don't live in one of those countries where sermons are broadcast over the street through loud speakers! Being woken up, whilst in India, at 4am by a pentecostal service at earbleed levels was slightly disorienting and, when it continued for the next 48 hours, I seriously thought I was going to lose my sanity.

Well you have convinced me never to visit India.

Even without the legal changes I will still do my part for my cause by pointing out to the religious street loonies (aka soul beggers) that they are unwelcome and that anyone they do pick up on successfully has probably just been a member of the care in the community programme and a good way to start a conversation with the initiate is to ask then what meds they are on. Either that or I pretend to be interested and waste their time while just nodding at them and planning my shopping list or the rest of my day, then after a few mins I just wonder off. This is nothing new. Been doing this for many years.

Also they never knock on my door. The anti spam sign on my door seems to prevent that quite efficiently.


Perhaps another tactic: There are legal challanges to spam emails
What about phone spam
Door caller spam (a robust sign seems to help)
Street spam (religious, begging, sales, accident vultures).

The street spam could be tackled by just having a table in a location which does not get in the way with a single sign to point out what your table is about, for example: "have you had an accident in the last 5 years?". People could approach the table if they wanted to without any pressure or interruption.

I have seen animal welfare types use this method and it seems to work.

 

[mossy_sloth]

I have seen animal welfare types use this method and it seems to work.

I have also seen animal welfare types displaying graphic and gory pictures of animal cruelty on the sidewalk, which I find intrusive. I don't think it's suitable for children to see what their cat looks like with its insides on the outside, nor what their dog would look like with half its head an abcessed mess.

My point remains the same. There are extremes on all sides.

 

[Anonymous]

I have also seen animal welfare types displaying graphic and gory pictures of animal cruelty on the sidewalk, which I find intrusive. I don't think it's suitable for children to see what their cat looks like with its insides on the outside, nor what their dog would look like with half its head an abcessed mess.

True. Perhaps they should keep the photos in a folder clearly marked "potentially offensive" and I do wonder if there are already laws agains photos of dismembered animals being shown in public. TV stations have to give a warning beforehand.

However at least what they portray is normally the truth, I say normally as being human they are prone to exaggerate to get their point across.

This cannot be said of the religious folks. Very little of what they say can be proved as true yet it is peddled in the street as true. It is taught in schools as true and 'heaven help' any kid in that school who vocalises that he or she doubts the existance of god (speaking from experience).

Is telling a child that they are sinners and will spend eternity in hell worse than showing them proof of something real that a human being has done to another living thing? which is the greatest threat to that child? another real human with their perversions, greed and hidden agenda or some biblical end of level bad guy?


Oops I think I am approaching rant mode - - - - I will say no more

 

[mossy_sloth]

Is telling a child that they are sinners and will spend eternity in hell worse than showing them proof of something real that a human being has done to another living thing? which is the greatest threat to that child? another real human with their perversions, greed and hidden agenda or some biblical end of level bad guy?

I don't know the answer to that question. Because, if like you say, there is no truth to the matter of Hell (which I view as neither proven nor unproven, though not adhering to that belief system myself), then perhaps a child learning a lie (or at least a human construction), can later revise his/her own opinion, as seems to be the case with many people (the religious dogma thread proves this point I am sure). However, showing a child graphic images of undeniably real human cruelty must also have a strong effect on at least some children, and introduces them to aspects of humanity that I personally find just as repulsive as the atrocities that people have been committed in the name of religion. And what they have seen will always be true. Whether you feel children should be shown the "facts of life" at an early age to avoid disillusionment later is another topic for debate!

But I understand what you mean about religion in schools. I have always felt religion class should be an awareness programme of a variety of religions. Obviously this is not going to be a viable option in many private schools though. I had no religious upbringing at all, my parents were both more of your hippy type, so encountering "scripture" class at school was a little foreign to me. However even then I was never threatened with spending eternity in hell.

 

[Anonymous]

I envy you.

Had to sing hymns in assembly every day followed by bible stories.

Once when asked what I thought about Jesus (I was about 8 I think) I replied that I thought "he was a myth created to get children to behave, just like father christmas".

For that comment I was struck once across the back with a bamboo cane then shaken until my neck hurt. Then for a whole week I was forced to stay in at play time and copy pages from the bible. I was told that if I made a single mistake in my replication of the passages I would go to hell. I think I was more frightened of being shaken again as that hurt.

Suffice to say after that if asked about jesus after that event I lied when I answered and said I believed, but the truth is my instincts have always told me the bible is just a bunch of untrue stories and I trust my instincts.

BTW the primary school in question was not a religious one. It was the headmaster "Mr Charles" that was the religious influence.

I guess this could be why I am so suspicious of organised religion. I see it as nothing more than a method of control over others.