• Forums Software Updates

    The forums will be undergoing updates on Sunday 10th November 2024.
    Little to no downtime is expected.
  • We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Mummers Plays, The Green Man Etc.

Hospitaller

Ephemeral Spectre
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
427
Location
Ireland
Sweepers

I recall a letter or short piece in FT a couple of years back about the Sweepers, a secret society in the ?Pennines who hum outside houses on ?New Year's Eve and then rush in and sweep the house out. Apparently they dress up to disguise their identity and membership is inherited, going back centuries. Anyone else know anything more or confirm the tale?:confused:
 
Dont know about that but I seem to remember a similar practice in Scotland when young men knock on doors and then throw in a piece of coal, this apparently confirs good luck for the new year.
Anyone heard of that one?:madeyes:
 
p.younger said:
Dont know about that but I seem to remember a similar practice in Scotland when young men knock on doors and then through in a piece of coal, this apparently confirs good luck for the new year.
Anyone heard of that one?:madeyes:

You're referring to the practice of 'first-footing', visting friends and neighbours at New Year (either Hogmanay, dec. 31st, or Ne'erday, 1st jan, with the latter more common - starting at about 00:05!)
The first foot shoud be tall, dark and handsome (!). He (sorry ladies, its definitely he!) should carry a lump of coal (so that you always have fuel), shortbread/black bun or similar (so that you always have food), and whisky. Don't know what the whisky's for, though. :cross eye

(Oh, and you take the coal, not throw it - not if you want to see Jan. 2nd!)
 
My house is pretty dirty guys ...

Here is a low frequency noise site that might be able to give you more info. Basically as you said it is New Years Mumming - apparently they are quite literally cross dressers:

.... Was it thought of as some supernatural presence, and if so, could it have any bearing on folk customs such as the whispering sweepers of the Pennines, described evocatively by Bob Pegg: "outside you hear a faint noise, gradually becoming louder, till it sounds as if a swarm of bees is gathering outside in the darkness. Suddenly the door opens and in steps a group of half-a-dozen or so people, their faces blacked to make them unrecognisable the men dressed as women, and the women dressed as men with their jackets pulled inside-out. Each carrries a broom and, ignoring the members of the household, they sweep around the room, and especially the hearth, humming all the while. When they have finished their cleaning job one of them holds out a purse in which you put a few coppers and they leave for their next call without having said a word". This 'mumming', however, was a New Year custom, while the hummadruz, as noted, is especially associated with hot summer days...

http://www.danu.co.uk/ne/perm/hum/hum2.html

Hope this helps.
 
Well I have seen tv (sic) shows about men dressed as women who
want to clean the house.

Only they pay you.

Sadly they don't appear in yellow pages, so I guess they are a
myth. Or booked up till 2050. :(
 
THAT'S IT! Thanks Jimmmy, that's what I recall reading! I'd love to go see them in action. BIZARRE!:D
 
Originally posted by DerekH


You're referring to the practice of 'first-footing', visting friends and neighbours at New Year (either Hogmanay, dec. 31st, or Ne'erday, 1st jan, with the latter more common - starting at about 00:05!)
The first foot shoud be tall, dark and handsome (!). He (sorry ladies, its definitely he!) should carry a lump of coal (so that you always have fuel), shortbread/black bun or similar (so that you always have food), and whisky. Don't know what the whisky's for, though. :cross eye

(Oh, and you take the coal, not throw it - not if you want to see Jan. 2nd!)
[/

We used to have first footing here in the north east too, but it seems to have died out, having been replaced by a general booze-up. Which is a shame, because you can have a booze up any time of the year, but not first-footing! We didn't have black bun, tho'. I've heard of it, but what exactly is it?

Carole
 
I ain't no baker, but basically it's a heavy fruit cake that incorporates lots of dark fruit - currants, sultanas, etc. - and enough sugary ingredients to kill a horse.

BTW, the Scots diet is the least healthy in Europe. Although we haven't started deep frying black bun yet (unlike Mars bars - peeuch!) :eek:
 
The Scots may eat all the wrong things but a full Scottish breakfast is a thing of joy, once in a while.:p
 
p.younger said:
The Scots may eat all the wrong things but a full Scottish breakfast is a thing of joy, once in a while.:p


Except when you're spitting your porridge out for containing salt instead of sugar. Happened to me in Edinburgh. There's also a growing (American-influenced?) trend for same with popcorn. You have to be very careful down the Odeon nowadays.;)
 
The Wicker Man and Mummers Plays

I watched The Wicker Man for the first time last night and apart from being suprised that it was almost a musical, the masked play brought back floods of memories of the folk plays that I saw while growing up in Cumbria. I remember seeing them at the christmas ceilidh (my parents were hippy folk types - they even took me to see morris men!) and they involved St. George, an evil Turk, an resurrectionist doctor, a fool with a bladder balloon on a stick and several lesser characters. I'm sure this play wasn't specific to Cumbria but don't really know anything else about it.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?
 
There are 2 distinct versions of The Wicker Man. If you've only watched the original cinematic release, then make an effot to see the director's cut, it's far better and fills in some gaps.
 
Red Dalek said:
There are 2 distinct versions of The Wicker Man. If you've only watched the original cinematic release, then make an effot to see the director's cut, it's far better and fills in some gaps.

I've only seen the original version - £5.99 on VHS :) - couldn't afford the £29.99 DVD (and I don't have a DVD player yet anyway)
 
Mummers Play

I "performed" in an updated Mummers Play during my shool days (late 70's). This was in Sheffield so St George became Jack "Sheffield" Steel (that wer me!) and the Turk became a Japanese dragon signifying imported steel. The story was a bit odd (if you want more details let me know) but we had loads of fun. We did a couple of public performances at the Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet and one at our annual school fete.

I've also seen a short version of a Mummers Play performed by the Handsworth Sword Dancers, also in Sheffield.
 
Re: The Wicker Man and Mummers Plays

pi23 said:
...they involved St. George, an evil Turk, an resurrectionist doctor, a fool with a bladder balloon on a stick and several lesser characters. I'm sure this play wasn't specific to Cumbria but don't really know anything else about it.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

I grew up in a small village in Kent where there's a Mumming troupe who performed either the St George play or a Robin Hood play. They both had the same structure - involving the death and rebirth of the hero. This is a classic folkloric motif and is based on the death of the world in winter and it's rebirth in summer. The Mummers performed at Christmas - the winter solstice. If you read Frazer's The Golden Bough you'll find many parrallels with myth cycles from all over the world; Odin, Osiris, Christ, and Arthurian romance, with the death or life of the land being somehow connected and reliant on that of its King. The Christmas tree and yule log are also derived from the pagan practice of keeping the vegetation god alive by bringing a symbolic piece of the forest into the house during the dark days of winter.

In the next village along they have Hoodeners - they sing folk songs in pubs and have a "hoodening horse" (a man in a horse costume with a snapping mouth) that wanders around causing as much mayhem as possible. No idea what that's all about.
 
Yes that sounds familiar - the mummers actors were morris men IIRC and they used to do sword dancing - including that six sword sun/star they also did some quite violent dancing smashing big sticks together. In the mummers play I remember St. George meets an evil Turk and is killed then brought back to life by a strange doctor who pulls out his innards one by one then stuffs them back in.
 
Pi23,

That was pretty much our story too, but Jack Steel was brought back to life by a cash "injection" by the Doctor. There was also a lot of blood & guts. :D
 
In our one St George was brought back to life by being given Shepherd Neame real ale to drink, to much applause by everyone in the pub.
 
Are these plays still performed? Maybe at Christmas/Winter Solstice or May Day?
 
I've found this interesting piece on the origins of mummers plays from a site about strange Buckinghamshire - http://www.cleaverproperty.co.uk/strange/bucks/mum.html


The plays are undoubtedly old. References to mummers go back at least to the thirteenth century, but records of what they did, its form and origin are matters for speculation. Though usually regarded as typically English items of folklore, mummers performing similar stories are to be found in Portugal and Thrace. For all their brevity, the plays offer us a number of clues to their origin. The fact that the villain is invariably of Middle Eastern provenance brings to mind the Crusades and this is supported by two other elements. St George of Cappadocia, best known for his slaughter of the lake-dragon had also taken a prominent part in the crusades - it was this that took him Sylene in Libya where the dragon was terrorising the populace, a detail well-known to the audiences of earlier epochs. There is also the miracle-working doctor. One side-effect of the crusades was to bring westerners in contact with Arab medicine, vastly more advanced than their own. Many of the Arab doctors - in practice, often Jews - who chanced to fall into the hands of the Crusaders were taken into the employment of wealthy families. Their skill was in such demand that they were often able to dictate their salaries - hence the fee-bargaining which one finds in the mummer plays. They took with them, for medicinal use, many of the herbs which now grow in our gardens and give flavour to our food. The Middle Eastern overtones would, of course, have found an echo among audiences down the centuries, for even in high Renaissance times the armies of Ottoman Turkey were advancing through Europe, a progress unstemmed until the Battle of Lepanto in 1571.

But other traces in the plays hint at even more archaic origins. St George is primarily the dragon-slayer. The slaughter of a dragon-like monster is a recurrent mythological motif and, like most of such motifs, is a statement encoded but amenable to decipherment once you have the key. Usually the slaughter of a serpent or dragon stands for the supplanting of a feminine by a masculine deity. The most famous case is that of Apollo killing the Python at Delphi and appropriating to himself the sanctuary of the Earth Mother. This substitution invariably diminishes the importance of the female in religious practice, a state of affairs to be seen in most of the major religions. In the light of this it may well be significant that the casts of the mummers players are overwhelmingly male. The hobby horse, which is the hero's steed, recalls those associated with other folk customs such as the Padstow Obby Oss and a hobby horse also features in customs found in some parts of rural Wales. Undoubtedly this derives from our Celtic ancestors who venerated the horse. There are also Celtic overtones in the hero's boasting and throwing out of his challenge, as in the motif of the resuscitation of a dead warrior. Instances are to be found in the Mabinogion story of Branwen.

In any case, stripped to essentials, the theme of all versions is the death and rebirth of a hero. Of all mythological motifs, this - the commemoration of the agricultural cycle - is the most constant and among the most archaic going back thousands of years until its lineaments finally become blurred as time's mists enfold it. Confirmation that this lies behind the mummers play comes from the fact that many plays end with the entire cast doing a springing dance in which they make sunwise circles. In other words the Bodgers, and all other mummers, were not so much performing a play as enacting an ancient ritual. And that such a ritual should continue to be enacted by predominantly rural and agricultural communities, dependent on the earth, should not perhaps entirely surprise us.
 
Re: Mummers Play

Rick said:
I "performed" in an updated Mummers Play during my shool days (late 70's). This was in Sheffield so St George became Jack "Sheffield" Steel (that wer me!) and the Turk became a Japanese dragon signifying imported steel. The story was a bit odd (if you want more details let me know) but we had loads of fun. We did a couple of public performances at the Abbeydale Industrial Hamlet and one at our annual school fete.

I've also seen a short version of a Mummers Play performed by the Handsworth Sword Dancers, also in Sheffield.
I saw a mummers play at Abbeydale in I979...
Could this have been you?
 
Er...hate to say this but mummers plays probably aren't any more 'ancient' than morris dancing. I think that alot of things are stuck to what goes on in them that aren't actually old. Also, some mummers plays don't feature St George + dragon, etc. but instead have a giant, or an obby oss, or various other characters. They seem to have a common theme because they're copies of each other and these copies arose from that fact that the plays themselves were kick-started back into existence by the same sort of revival that gave birth to modern 'druids'. You can pin any sort of hero motif to alot of things, even TV programmes, but it doesn't mean that there's a link to it that goes way back when. It's the same with various odds and ends of folklore in England.
 
Re: Re: Mummers Play

Eburacum45 said:
I saw a mummers play at Abbeydale in I979...
Could this have been you?

If it was any good then yes, if not .......

Actually it probably was. 1979 would be the year I left school and we were all in the Upper Sixthform when we "performed".

We did two performances that day from what I recall. The first was at ground level, around the back of the Hamlet on some grass. This was in the late morning I think. We then did one on a stage in the afternoon/early evening. Some of us were a bit tipsy for that one but it seemed to go down okay. :D

Rick.
 
I suspect you're right - the photos of the mummers plays in the pub I mention go back to the 60s, but I don't know if they're revivals of known local custom or something gleaned from a book on folklore.

The other traditional that I mention, the Hoodeners, have a far more definite foundation in traditional Kentish rural customs, even though they were mid-20th century revivals...

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/bj1/hood/bjhoodhr.htm
 
There was a big revival of mummers plays in the Victorian era and later in the 1920s to a certain extent, and as they were restarted they tended to take their lead from other plays still in existence, or took the bare bones of them and added or embellished certain things. Some have a more nationalistic tinge too, especially WRT the St.George motif. So alot of what we can see nowadays is a pretty rough Victorian rework. Some may be older, but not (I'd argue) ancient.
 
Not much to add on mummer's plays except for a couple of other appearances. In one episode of "Robin of Sherwood" (season 2, I believe), Robin & the Merries disguise themselves as mummers and put on a performance in order to distract a bunch of mercenaries who were holding a village hostage - most amusing, with Michael Praed hamming it up (and obviously enjoying himself), and a number of the Merries stumbling over lines or cues. And in one of Hardy's novels, I think "Return of the Native", there is a celebration including the arrival and performance by Mummers.

They may be interesting / entertaining to check out!
 
I agree with JerryB. And I'm prepared to go further! Perhaps too far. I think nearly all of this type of stuff goes back only as far as a nostalgic reaction against industrialisation.

I would say the same about paganism, folksyness, fairies, Morris Dancing, all things Gaelic, the Pre Raphaelites, the Arts 'n Crafts movement, To The Manor Born, Ballykissangel, Real Ale, The Sunday Telegraph and Morgan Motors.

These are all basically bogus or suburban recreations of non existent or lost traditions. Though they are loved.

edit:

And Werther's Originals. Which are neither loved nor original.
 
alb said:
I agree with JerryB. And I'm prepared to go further! Perhaps too far. I think nearly all of this type of stuff goes back only as far as a nostalgic reaction against industrialisation.

I would say the same about paganism, folksyness, fairies, Morris Dancing, all things Gaelic, the Pre Raphaelites, the Arts 'n Crafts movement, To The Manor Born, Ballykissangel, Real Ale, The Sunday Telegraph and Morgan Motors.

These are all basically bogus or suburban recreations of non existent or lost traditions. Though they are loved.

Take your point but you're very wide of the mark on Real Ale. Real ale was just "beer" until lager was introduced in the late 60s/early 70s. Lager is easier to keep at a more consistent quality, hence it's popularity. But beer meant bitter until fairly recently.

I do agree with you that since industrialisation, rural life has become ridiculously idealised as some Arcadian idyll. People may like the idea of strong community, maypoles, rolls in the hay etc but the reality of backbreaking agricultural work, the constant threat of starvation and being tied to the land for your entire life was slightly less romantic.
 
Quite a few of the odder traditions have faded away, some of which do point perhaps at least to Anglo-Saxon times. One that springs to mind is passing your children through a piece of split ash, in order to confer health. Ash is significant as it was the wood of choice for the pagan Saxons, as it was supposed to have all sorts of magical properties.
 
Back
Top