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Nebra Disk / Sky Disc Of Nebra

rynner2

Gone But Not Forgotten
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This webpage contains details about the earliest astronomical map found.
Scientists are still scratching their heads at the full meaning of a 32cm bronze-and-gold disc found by treasure hunters on the Mittelberg in 1999. The map on its face shows the Brocken as well as 32 stars including the Pleiades.

Experts in pre-history can only guess at the identity of the people who made the "Nebra Disc" 3 600 years ago.

"This disc, with the oldest concrete representation of the stars in the world, was placed in a pit in the middle of a ringwall during the early Bronze Age," Harald Meller, the chied archaeologist in the state of Saxony-Anhalt, said on Wednesday.

"We still don't know if it was a princely grave or a treasure store for holy objects."
(This link has also been used by Breakfast in this forum, but focusing on the witchcraft aspects rather than on the artefact.)

BTW, there is a mistake in the article - June 22nd is (nearly) a Solstice, not an Equinox.

The link is long dead. The MIA news story can be retrieved via the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive.org/web/2005050..._id=qw1032973740198B265&set_id=1&fSetCookie=1

The full text of the MIA news story is posted to this other thread:

Archaeological Finds On Or Near The Brocken
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/archaeological-finds-on-or-near-the-brocken.5703/
 
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I thought there was something similar at newGrange, or was that not an astronomical map?
 
Archaeologists Unearth German Stonehenge
German experts on Thursday hailed Europe’s oldest astronomical observatory, discovered in Saxony-Anhalt last year, a “milestone in archaeological research” after the details of the sensational find were made public.

... They say that with all likelihood it can be traced back to the period between 5000 and 4800 B.C. If that is the case, it would make the Goseck site the oldest-dated astronomical observatory in Europe.

Observatory had scientific and religious value

But it’s not just its age that makes the Goseck location so unusual.

Compared to the approximately 200 other similar prehistoric mound sites strewn throughout Europe, the Goseck site has striking deviations. Instead of the usual four gates leading into the circular compounds, the Goseck monument has just three. The walled-compound also consists of an unusual formation of concentric rings of man-high wooden palisades. The rings and the gates into the inner circles become narrower as one progresses to the center, indicating perhaps that only a few people could enter the inner-most ring.

Wolfhard Schlosser of the Ruhr University Bochum believes the site's unique construction indicates that it is indeed one of the earliest examples of an astrological observatory. ...


Links between Nebra disc and observatory

Experts are also drawing parallels between the Goseck mounds and another equally spectacular discovery made in the region. "The formation of the site, its orientation and the marking of the winter and summer solstice shows similarities to the world-famous ‘Nebra disc’ – though the disc was created 2,400 years later," Schlosser says.

The 3,600-year-old bronze Nebra disc was discovered just 25 kilometers away from Goseck in the wooded region of Nebra and is considered to be the oldest concrete representation of the cosmos. The 32-centimeter disc is decorated with gold leaf symbols that clearly represent the sun, moon and starts. A cluster of seven dots has been interpreted as the Pleiades constellation as it appeared 3,600 years ago. Schlosser believes the formations on the disc were based on previous astrological observations, which could possibly have been made at Goseck.

Archeologists are certain the observatory with its function of tracking time played a crucial role in a society dominated by the changing seasons. They theorize that both the Goseck observatory and the Nebra disc indicate that astronomical knowledge was tied to a mythological-cosmological world view right from the beginning. ...
 
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Ancient sky map or fake? German experts row over star disc

Greets

(status in dispute anyway)

Ancient sky map or fake? German experts row over star disc

Luke Harding in Berlin
Tuesday March 1, 2005
The Guardian

One of Germany's most acclaimed archaeological finds - a 3,600-year-old disc depicting the stars and the planets - is at the centre of a dispute following claims that it is a modern forgery.

According to Germany's museum establishment, the Sky Disc of Nebra is the oldest depiction of the heavens discovered and offers an insight into the Bronze Age mind.

But the authenticity of the disc has been challenged by one of the country's leading archaeologists, Peter Schauer of Regensburg University. He told a court in Halle that the artefact was nothing more than an amateurish forgery.

Prof Schauer said that the ancient-looking green patina on the artefact was not old at all, and had probably been artificially created in a workshop using acid, urine and a blowtorch.

The indentations on the disc's side, meanwhile, were also not made by a Bronze Age tool but were done by machine, he said.

"My colleagues don't want to believe it. But there is little doubt that the disc is a fake," he told the Guardian yesterday. "It looks very nice. It has the sky and the stars. You can even see the Pleiades. But I'm afraid it's a piece of fantasy."

The disc was allegedly found in 1999 by two amateur metal detectors. They claimed they discovered it in a muddy field close to a prehistoric hill fort near the east German town of Nebra, with two ancient swords and jewellery. The amateur archaeologists then attempted to sell the disc to various German museums for 1m Deutschmarks. Police in the Swiss city of Basel eventually arrested the pair and they were convicted of handling stolen goods. They are appealing against the sentence, arguing that if the disk is a fake they should not have been convicted in the first place.

Last week a judge in Halle called Prof Schauer as an expert witness after he wrote a letter to the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper last November saying that the disc was a fake.

Other experts, though, have poured scorn on the professor's testimony. "An examination of the patina confirms its ancient origins ... I have no doubt that it does indeed come from the Bronze Age," another professor, Josef Riederer, told the court. Tests revealed that the disc had come from the Nebra site, yet another expert, Gregor Borg, claimed.

The case is embarrassing Germany's curatorial establishment, which had hailed the disc as the most sensational archaeological discovery of the last century. The disc, with its gold appliqués, was the oldest concrete representation of the cosmos to date and a key find not only for archaeology but also for astronomy and the history of religion, experts claimed. It probably belonged to an early Bronze Age prince, they added, who would have exchanged goods across Europe. Thousands of Germans have flocked to an exhibition in Halle to see the disc.

Yesterday, however, Prof Schauer said the disc could have been manufactured by shamans from Siberia, and was probably no more than "two or three hundred years old". Asked whether he might be wrong, he replied: "I spent 19 years examining finds from across the ancient and Roman world. I know what I'm talking about."

The judge is likely to rule on the case next week.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1427546,00.html

mal
 
Concerning the Sky Disc of Nebra, if it was made by 'shamans' a couple of hundred years ago, then it is not a fake, it is a misidentification. A disc made by shamans would be intersting in itself.

It would make a moccers of the astronomical information supposedly included on the Disc, of course.
 
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I was thinking about the Nebra disk, and was wondering if there has been a final word on its authenticity (or lack thereof).

Has it been debunked? Has it been confirmed?

The fact that it was being hawked by con artists is no real sign for me: things at that time in East Germany were pretty weird, and people were desparate. It could show it to be true, or false.

Any other news regarding it?
 
Confirmed, absolutely, according to the Horizon documentary which was shown here (Sydney) earlier tonight.

From the sound of it, there had been quite a struggle between the factions and claims made that the disc was of Egyptian origin. Analysis proved however that copper used in the disc had been mined near where the disc had been discovered ... not in the Mediterranean or elsewhere.

The authenticity of the disc was confirmed, based on analysis of mould and by establishing it was comparable in age to other artefacts (already dated) found in the same location.

The commentator droned on repeatedly about 'primitive Europeans' as compared to sophisticated Egyptians, which I found annoying and steeped in political agendas. At the same time, it had to be acknowledged that these Europeans were obviously not primitive at all, but highly sophisticated in knowledge and accomplishments. There were several comparisons with the disc and the Bible, which were not supported and which I considered to be an attempt to link the disc with the mid-east in the minds of viewers, many of whom I guess, would be children. The disc was created approx. 1600 before the advent of Christianity, by Europeans who had their own gods and religions. The disc had nothing at all to do with the bible as far as I could see, or the mid-east, despite the commentator's several claims that the disc contained a representation of the Egyptian sun-boat. The female archaeologist (with the hyphenated surname) did not support the sun-boat claims; in fact unless I'm mistaken, the Germans had already established that the curved gold lines at the perimeter of the disc, were highly sophisticated calibrations representing the summer and winter solstice. The Bible does not enter into it. It would make as much sense to claim Mayan carvings were associated with the Bible. Very biased commentary, imo. It's motivated me to seek out other, more balanced reports of the disc and its European creators.
 
As a minor point, the assertion in the programme concerning the Disc's depiction of the Pleiades - "1600 BC, it made the Nebra Sky disc the oldest accurate picture of the night sky in all history" - is incorrect.

It's been pretty convincingly demonstrated that a famous paleolithic (ca. 26,000 BC?) cave painting in France (forget the caves' name just now) depicting a bull includes a representation of both the Pleiades above its shoulder and the Hyades* on its face, the latter so accurate that the changes in its stars' relative positions between now and then are discernable. Thus the bull depicts the constellation Taurus.

* The Hyades is/are one of the closest Open Clusters (ca. 150 ly away off the top of my head), whose 'proper' stellar motions can be measured over relatively short periods and featured (30 years ago, anyway) in freshman (in my case bejant) level astronomy textbooks.
 
More information here on the Archaeology intitute of America website
http://www.archaeology.org/curiss/newsb ... sider.html
and here
http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/001179.html

Prof Schauer said that the ancient-looking green patina on the artefact was not old at all, and had probably been artificially created in a workshop using acid, urine and a blowtorch. The indentations on the disc's side, meanwhile, were also not made by a Bronze Age tool but were done by machine, he said. "My colleagues don't want to believe it. But there is little doubt that the disc is a fake," he said.

but
Other experts, though, have poured scorn on the professor's testimony. "An examination of the patina confirms its ancient origins. I have no doubt that it does indeed come from the Bronze Age," another professor, Josef Riederer, told the court
 
Ah disagreeing experts - I recently learned that radiologists disagree about 30% of the time (same figure for diagnosis of psychiatric disorders, if interested). Hope more info becomes available, coz it would be nice to know which way this one is going... 8)
 
Not so hard to believe.

I saw a doc about a place in Ireland where they built a building that was designed and placed to allow sunlight to be directed through windows and to certain parts of the building's interior. That was in the 'Stone Age'.

Also, there were (thousands of years ago) huge castles and forts (they look like pyramids and hills now).

I saw pictures of pyramid shaped hills in the countryside of Britain, and there used to be castles on top of these.

Monks used complex herb mixtures which worked, and only through careful and patient archeological work has any of the knowlege been rediscovered.
 
DW staff (tt) | www.dw-world.de | © Deutsche Welle.

Bronze Age Sky Disc Deciphered

3,600 years ago, this sky disc was used as an astronomical clock3,600 years ago, this sky disc was used as an astronomical clock
A group of German scientists has deciphered the meaning of one of the most spectacular archeological discoveries in recent years: The mystery-shrouded sky disc of Nebra was used as an advanced astronomical clock.

The purpose of the 3,600 year-old sky disc of Nebra, which caused a world-wide sensation when it was brought to the attention of the German public in 2002, is no longer a matter of speculation.


A group of German scholars who studied this archaeological gem has discovered evidence which suggests that the disc was used as a complex astronomical clock for the harmonization of solar and lunar calendars.

"This is a clear expansion of what we knew about the meaning and function of the sky disc," said archeologist Harald Meller.

A thirteenth month?


The sky disc of Nebra was not all moonshineBildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: The sky disc of Nebra was not all moonshine

Unlike the solar calendar, which indicates the position of the earth as it revolves around the sun, the lunar calendar is based on the phases of the moon. A lunar year is eleven days shorter than the solar year because 12 synodic months, or 12 returns of the moon to the new phase, take only 354 days.

The sky disc of Nebra was used to determine if and when a thirteenth month -- the so-called intercalary month -- should be added to a lunar year to keep the lunar calendar in sync with the seasons.


"The functioning of this clock was probably known to a very small group of people," Meller said.

Bronze Age science

A slice of prehistory for romantic sky gazersBildunterschrift: A slice of prehistory for romantic sky gazers

The 32-centimeter-wide (seven-inch) bronze disc with gold-leaf appliqués representing the sun, the moon, and the stars is the oldest visual representation of the cosmos known to date. A cluster of seven dots has previously been interpreted as the Pleiades constellation as it appeared 3,600 years ago.

The explanation of the disc's purpose sheds new light on the astronomical knowledge and abilities of the Bronze Age people, who used a combination of solar and lunar calendars as important indicators for agricultural seasons and passage of time.

"The sensation lies in the fact that the Bronze Age people managed to harmonize the solar and lunar years. We never thought they would have managed that," Meller said.

According to astronomer Wolfhard Schlosser of the Rurh University at Bochum, the Bronze Age sky gazers already knew what the Babylonians would describe only a thousand years later.

"Whether this was a local discovery, or whether the knowledge came from afar, is still not clear," Schlosser said.

From Saxony-Anhalt to Babylon


The sky disc of Nebra was found near Europe's oldest observatory in GoseckBildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: The sky disc of Nebra was found near Europe's oldest observatory in Goseck

Ever since the disc was discovered, archaeologists and astronomers have been puzzled by the shape of the moon as it appears on the disc.

"I wanted to explain the thickness of the crescent on the sky disc of Nebra because it is not a new moon phase," said Hamburg astronomer Ralph Hansen.

In his quest to explain why the Nebra astronomers created a sky map with a four or five days old moon on it, Hansen consulted the "Mul-Apin" collection of Babylonian documents from the 7th and 6th centuries B.C.

These cuneiform writings represent, according to Hansen, a compendium of "astronomic knowledge from the earliest times." They also contain a calculation rule for the crescent that looks strikingly similar to the one from Nebra.

According to the ancient Babylonian rule, a thirteenth month should only be added to the lunar calendar only when one sees the constellation of the moon and the Pleiades exactly as they appear on the Nebra sky disc.

Knowledge comes and goes

The sky disc of Nebra was first discovered by treasure huntersBildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: The sky disc of Nebra was first discovered by treasure hunters

The Bronze Age astronomers would hold the Nebra clock against the sky and observe the position of the celestial objects. The intercalary month was inserted when what they saw in the sky corresponded to the map on the disc they were holding in their hands. This happened every two to three years.

But the German researchers also discovered that in the 400 years that the disc was in use, its status had evolved. The perforations on the edge of the object as well as a ship that was later added to the map suggest that the knowledge about the lunar calendar's shortage of days was lost along the way.

"That means, that in the end the disk became a cult object," Meller said.

The disc was found in 1999 by two previously convicted treasure looters. It was seized by the authorities in 2002 along with other Bronze Age objects in a police operation in Switzerland.

www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1915398,00.html
 
:lol: I just cut an pasted then scurried over here to see that Emps had beat me to it, did you get it from ufoarea.com by any chance Emps ?
 
crunchy5 said:
:lol: I just cut an pasted then scurried over here to see that Emps had beat me to it, did you get it from ufoarea.com by any chance Emps ?

Nope.

I do the rounds of a number of weird news sites and that was one of them. I don't think I've ever been to ufoarea.com.
 
The mystery continues:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6722953.stm

Calendar question over star disc

25 June 2007

Archaeologists have revived the debate over whether a spectacular Bronze Age disc from Germany is one of the earliest known calendars.

The Nebra disc is emblazoned with symbols of the Sun, Moon and stars and said by some to be 3,600 years old.

Writing in the journal Antiquity, a team casts doubt on the idea the disc was used by ancient astronomers as a precision tool for observing the sky.

They instead argue that the disc was used for shamanistic rituals.

But other archaeologists who have studied the Himmelsscheibe von Nebra (Nebra sky disc) point to features which, they say, helped Bronze Age people to track four key dates during the year.

The Nebra disc is considered one of the most sensational - and controversial - discoveries in archaeology in the past 10 years.

The artefact was allegedly found by two treasure hunters near the town of Nebra, Germany, in 1999.

Police in the Swiss city of Basel arrested the treasure hunters in a sting, and they were eventually convicted.

The pair said they found the disc on a 252m-high hilltop called Mittelberg in the German federal state of Saxony-Anhalt.

While many scholars support its status as an object from the Bronze Age, it is claimed to be a fake by others, notably the German researcher Peter Schauer from the University of Regensburg.

"German archaeologists don't say clearly that this is a fake. They hide, thinking that the thunderstorm will blow over," Dr Schauer told BBC News.

In the latest study of the artefact, Emilia Pasztor of the Matrica Museum in Hungary and Curt Roslund of Gothenburg University in Sweden, worked from the basis that the artefact dates to about 1,800 BC - the Bronze Age.

They examined the possibility that the 32cm-wide disc could have been used as a precise calendrical device.

Two golden arcs on the outside of the disc may show how far the sunrise and sunset move along the horizon between winter and summer solstices.

The arcs are 82.5 degrees long, which is the angle the Sun is seen to travel between the high mid-summer sunset and the low mid-winter sunset.

The precise angle varies from place to place. But Professor Wolfhard Schlosser, from the University of Bochum, in Germany, has pointed out that 82 degrees corresponds to the journey of the sun at the specific latitude in Nebra.

As such, it could have been used as a calendrical tool by Bronze Age Europeans.

Differing interpretations

"It's a difficult question to answer, but I do not think it was used as an instrument used for observing objects in the sky," Curt Roslund, an astronomer at Gothenburg told BBC News.

"I can't find any evidence for this," he added.

Roslund and Pasztor argue that few features on the disc tend towards exact representation and that it is more likely to have been of symbolic value - perhaps used in shamanic rituals.

But Ernst Pernicke, from the University of Tuebingen, Germany, maintained that the disc was likely to have been used as a calendrical tool.

"The plain explanation is that you have four dates on the disc," he told BBC News.

"You have the summer and winter solstice from the bends on the side, a date in March and in September from the Pleiades star constellation.

Supporters of this interpretation have proposed that the cluster of seven gold spots on the disc represent the constellation known as the Pleiades.

In Antiquity, Pasztor and Roslund suggest that if the goldsmith intended to produce an accurate chart of the sky, he would have not have ignored the conspicuous nearby constellation of Orion, and the square of Pegasus to the right.

But the disc could also have been used to harmonise the lunar and solar calendars.

Ralph Hansen from the University of Hamburg, found that a calculation rule in ancient Babylonian texts which said that a thirteenth month should be added to the lunar calendar when one sees the moon in exactly the arrangement that appears on the Nebra disc.

In addition, the number of stars on the disc is 32, along with the Moon, that makes 33 objects in total. Intriguingly, 33 Moon years are equivalent to 32 Sun years.

Seasonal indicator

This information could have told farmers when to plant and harvest their crops.

"The Moon is better for short-term time measurements - but this means that festivals change dates each year. For a society whose survival is dependent on agriculture, these cannot be changed because they are dependent on sunshine," said Ernst Pernicka.

"For everyday calendrical purposes, you would use Moon years. But for designing when to plough fields and when to harvest, you use Sun years."

Because bronze cannot be dated directly, claims of an ancient date for the disc rest on several pieces of evidence. They include:

* The copper in the disc suggests it came from the eastern Alps, the main mine for copper during the Bronze Age.
* The gold was mined in the Carpathian basin, a common source for gold during the same period.
* The style of swords said to have been found with the disc, along with radiocarbon dates for a wooden grip on one of the swords, also suggest a Bronze Age origin.
* Corrosion has formed a crystalline "malachite" patina on the disc, suggesting it is old, and is unlike artificially corroded copper.

"We have searched about a dozen different types of evidence for indications of a fake. In the absence of any positive results, the probability that the disc is authentic is multiplied each time," said Dr Pernicka.

But for Peter Schauer, the disc's authenticity remains in question.

"The patina on all the pieces is different," he said, "If you urinate on a piece of bronze and then hide it in the ground for a few weeks you can produce the same patina as on the disc."
 
coldelephant said:
...a place in Ireland where they built a building that was designed and placed to allow sunlight to be directed through windows and to certain parts of the building's interior.

Newgrange, Co. Meath.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange

The entrance tunnel is aligned so that the sunlight falls into the heart of the mound for 17 minutes on December 21st each year: the shortest day.

A wonderful and atmospheric place to visit.

(I was told during my visit that places for visits on 21st December were booked up years in advance...)

maximus otter
 
They seem to be arguing whether it was used for shamanic purposes OR calendrical. What on earth stops it from being both?

Oh and how much would I like to visit Newgrange?
 
More information here on the Archaeology intitute of America website
http://www.archaeology.org/curiss/newsb ... sider.html ...

This link is dead, and the archeology.org site doesn't seem to be hosting the content anymore (in fact, the site's search doesn't admit any content on the Nebra disk is to be found there).

NOTE: Eburacum's 2nd link (to stonepages.com) is still viable.

Here is a condensed copy of the MIA article, salvaged using the Wayback Machine.

Insider: Sky Disk on Trial Volume 58 Number 6, November/December 2005
by Ulrich Boser
Soon after being recovered in a Hollywood-style sting operation in 2002, the Nebra sky disk became an archaeological superstar ... With its glittering array of gold-leaf celestial illustrations, the 3,600-year-old bronze disk was hailed as the earliest known diagram of the heavens and the most important archaeological discovery of the twenty-first century ("Star-Crossed Find," News, January/February 2003). But last year a German archaeologist claimed that the dinner-plate-sized disk was a fake, starting a shrill and often surreal battle over the artifact's authenticity that has rocked Germany's archaeological establishment.

The disk's recent history dates to 1999, when two looters using metal detectors discovered the artifact, along with several bronze weapons and tools, in a wooded area near the German town of Nebra, 100 miles southwest of Berlin. Amateur archaeologists Reinhold Stieber and Hildegard Burri-Bayer tried to hawk the disk for $400,000--and were seized by police officers in the basement bar of a touristy Swiss hotel. After a short trial, the duo, along with the looters, were found guilty of illegally trafficking in cultural artifacts. While the plunderers were given suspended sentences and put on probation, Stieber and Burri-Bayer appealed. And at that point in September 2003, no one disputed the disk's authenticity.

A year later, Regensburg University archaeologist Peter Schauer wrote a letter to a German newspaper, claiming that the artifact was a fake and that the ancient-looking green patina had been created by a modern mixture of acid and urine. ...

But Schauer's appearance in the witness stand ended up putting the field of archaeology on trial largely because his research practices were so unorthodox. He had never examined the artifact before making his claim, nor did he ever publish his findings in a peer-reviewed journal. "There were over 30 archaeologists sitting in the audience, and they didn't know if they should laugh or cry at the things Schauer said," says Anja Stadelbacher, spokeswoman for the Halle Institute for Archaeological Research in Germany, where the disk is currently located and where it underwent an exhaustive battery of tests that appear to support the artifact's authenticity. The disk's gold inlays can be traced to a Bronze Age mine in Austria, and a nearly inimitable mixture of hard crystal malachite covers the artifact. Saxon Anhalt state archaeochemist Christian Wunderlich has also tested Schauer's urine and acid theory, and his research can show that it is unlikely to have created the disk's slow-growth malachite veneer.

Nonetheless, archaeologists faced an uphill battle in disputing Schauer's claims, because the German legal system allows defendants to appeal almost every factual statement--and there were nearly a hundred hearings debating the disk's findspot. "The court must listen to every story, no matter how strange," says Harald Meller, director of the Halle Institute. ...

Still, Schauer stands by his claims, arguing that the faked corrosion is visible in photos of the disk. He also insists that he has support within the archaeological community. Schauer says that he will publish his findings next year in the German journal Archäologisches Korrespondenzblatt. "Then I hope my hidden colleagues will come out of the bushes," he says. ...

At the time ARCHAEOLOGY went to press, both sides had rested in the case, but no verdict had been reached. But most German archaeologists believe that the public relations damage to their field--and the disk--has already been done. ...

In the future, Wunderlich believes archaeologists should rely more on material science to examine artifacts. "We need to show how much science is behind what we do," he says. (Descriptions and photographs of the scientific testing performed on the Nebra sky disk are available, in German, on the Halle Institute's website.) Even so, he adds, "I know a few people will never believe that the disk is real. It will be like the people who think the moon landing was a fake. It's impossible to change everyone's mind."

SALVAGED FROM: https://web.archive.org/web/20051024113510/http://www.archaeology.org/curiss/newsbriefs/insider.html
 
I was thinking about the Nebra disk, and was wondering if there has been a final word on its authenticity (or lack thereof).
Has it been debunked? Has it been confirmed?
Any other news regarding it?

The disk is currently believed to be authentic. Corollary evidence obtained since the Schauer trial seems to consistently support this conclusion. The reason this status may never be absolutely certain is that it was a looted artifact whose excavation had not been conducted so as to ensure coherent stratigraphic relative dating.

The single best source for updating oneself on the overall story is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_sky_disk
 
I'm more sceptical of the palaeoastronomy on the Nebra Disk than its ancient origins. It's very difficult to prove that any ancient image is supposed to refer to a particular constellation or phenomenon; sometimes these guesses are likely to be correct, sometimes they are completely wide of the mark. How can you tell?

But there are a few ancient star maps that are completely authentic, and absolutely stunning, such as the Veronese Atlas and the Dendera Zodiac, so it is clearly the case that astronomy has been sophisticated for a very, very long time.
 
Agreed ... I've experienced a lot of cognitive dissonance in trying to accept some of the more detailed interpretations of the disk's astronomical references. Some of the speculations seem to require going an unjustified distance out on an inferential limb.
 
Agreed ... I've experienced a lot of cognitive dissonance in trying to accept some of the more detailed interpretations of the disk's astronomical references. Some of the speculations seem to require going an unjustified distance out on an inferential limb.
True. But it's a quite wonderful object nevertheless. :hoff:
 
Update ...

An extensive review and analysis of the Nebra disk has been conducted in an attempt to determine more facts about the artifact. The authors conclude the circumstances believed to have surrounded the disk's discovery aren't correct, further analysis of the disk separately from the other artifacts erroneously attributed as co-located must be pursued, and indications are that the disk makes more sense as having originated in the 1st millennium BCE rather than the 2nd millennium BCE.
New dating of Nebra sky disk

The Nebra sky disk is one of Germany's most significant archaeological finds and was included in the UNESCO Memory of the World Register in 2013. It was discovered in an illegal excavation in 1999 together with Bronze Age swords, axes and bracelets according to the finders. This discovery context was important for the scientific dating, as the disk itself could neither be scientifically nor archeologically dated by comparison with other objects. Many years of investigations by several research groups therefore attempted to verify both the attribution to the supposed discovery site as well as the common origins of the objects independent of the vague information given by the looters.

Rupert Gebhard, Director of the Munich Archäologischen Staatssammlung, and Rüdiger Krause Professor for Prehistory and Early European History at Goethe University Frankfurt have now extensively analysed the discovery circumstances and research results on the Nebra sky disk. Their conclusion: The site that was considered the discovery site until today and which was investigated in subsequent excavations is with high probability not the discovery site of the looters. Furthermore, there is no convincing evidence that the Bronze Age swords, axes and bracelets form an ensemble of common origins. For this reason, it must be assumed that this is not a typical Bronze Age deposit and that the disk was not found together with the other objects in an original state at the excavation site.

According to the archaeologists, this means that the disk must be investigated and evaluated as an individual find. Culturally and stylistically, the sky disk cannot be fitted into the Early Bronze Age motif world of the beginning of the second millennium B.C. On the contrary, clearer references can be made to the motif world of the Iron Age of the first millennium B.C. According to Gebhard and Krause, on the basis of a divergent data situation and on the basis of this new assessment, all previous, sometimes far-reaching cultural-historical conclusions must be discussed anew and with an open mind, and the disk must be interpreted and evaluated in different contexts than before. The basis for this must be the submission of all previously unpublished data and facts.
###
More detailed information can be found on the website of the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ur- und Frühgeschichte (German Society for Prehistory and Early History)

https://dguf.de/himmelsscheibe.html

SOURCE: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-09/guf-ndo090320.php
 
Here are the abstract for the (English) preview version of the 2020 report and information on where to access the final version when it's made available.
Critical comments on the find complex of the so-called Nebra Sky Disk
Rupert Gebhard & Rüdiger Krause

Abstract – The “Nebra Sky Disk” was reportedly discovered in 1999 as part of a hoard during an illegal excavation. In elaborate and long-lasting investigations an attempt was made to verify both the reported site location and the affiliation of the objects independently from the information given by the finders. Yet, a critical examination of the published results by the authors does not allow the conclusion that the site investigated in a re-excavation is correct, nor that the ensemble itself fulfils the criteria of a closed find (hoard). On the contrary, according to the excavation findings the ensemble could not have been in situ at the site named. The scientific examination of the objects contradicts rather than confirm their belonging together. If the disk is considered – as required by these facts – as a single object, it cannot be integrated into the Early Bronze Age motif world. Instead, a chronological embedment in the first millennium BC seems most likely. On the basis of this overall assessment, all further conclusions and interpretations of the cultural context and the meaning of the Nebra disk that have been made so far will have to be subjected to a critical discussion.

Early View: Quotable online version with preliminary pagination. After the printed volume has appeared you can find this article with its final pagination as open access publication there:

https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/arch-inf

FULL DOCUMENT: https://dguf.de/fileadmin/AI/ArchInf-EV_Gebhard_Krause_e.pdf
 
After 26 posts, l thought that a picture of the disc might be nice:

Nebra_Scheibe.jpg

maximus otter
 
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Interesting detail about the disk's origins - the gold and the tin used to make it were from Cornwall, even though the disk was found in Germany.
International trade, even back then.
 
Herodotus in his Histories, writing about 430 BC mentioned the tin islands but doubted their existence.
 
We could ... point to the dangers of travelling in those days. Either by sea from Cornwall or across ancient England and then the channel. Then to Germany. So many petty Kingdoms to navigate, dozens of warring tribes. Maybe they had trade treaties to protect importers/exporters in those days?
 
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