Nursery Rhymes
- Thread starter Pete Younger
- Start date
A
Anonymous
Guest
sounds very like a horrible variant of it!
A
Anonymous
Guest
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2002
- Messages
- 1,189
sureshot said:
hmm, that's the American version of the rhyme, the version I know is
Ring-a-ring-a-roses
a pocket full of posies
atishoo atishoo
we all fall down
the ring a roses refers to the spots, the pocket full of posies being to ward of the stench [of all them dead plague victims] atishoo meant the first symptoms of the plague, and all fall down was when you dropped dead ...
PeniG
Justified & Ancient
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,434
I can't find any trace of connection and never heard the rhyme you quote, but when I saw the lyrics you gave I immediately heard in my head the strong high voice of a young lady at an SCA event years ago, singing: "She wrapped her in her apron and I took her for a swan, but oh and alas it was she, Polly Vaughn." I have encountered this song enough times in written form to know that the proper name was some variant on Molly Bawn, and was also pretty sure that it originated as a broadside, which is often based directly on a news story, so I did a quick google and sure enough:
http://cjtm.icaap.org/content/14/v14art3.html
The google also indicated that there's a Chieftains cover, but I'm not familiar with it.
Since you didn't quote the whole poem it may not be relevant, but I take it from the context that simple swan hunting isn't the whole story there?
As for ring-around-the-rosie, it doesn't matter what version you use, Lobelia - they're just different versions of the same song, and I don't know why people are so desperate to connect a fun little kindergarten game with the plague, but if you're going to do it you should do so in full knowledge that no one who's researched the matter has come down in favor of that interpretation. The Opies know more about nursery rhymes in English than anyone else in the world alive or dead, and *they* say it's nonsense - though alas I refer to memory here, as I only have the American edition of the popular book, *The Opie Book of Nursery Rhymes,* not the full-blown scholarly work. The endnote on "ring-a-ring-a-roses" in this edition doesn't mention the plague one way or another, but gives an alternate version: "in Glasgow little children (and their mothers) continue to hold out against English radio and rhyme books, and sing:
Ring-a-ring-a-roses,
A cappie cappie shell,
The dog's awa to Hamilton,
to buy the wean a bell.
the wean'll no tak' it,
I'll tak' it tae mysel,'
ring-a-ring-a-roses,
A cappie cappie shell."
You could probably relate that to the plague if you tried hard enough, but it's like finding sexual innuendo and Satanism in children's books - more often doable than reflective of objective reality.
http://cjtm.icaap.org/content/14/v14art3.html
The google also indicated that there's a Chieftains cover, but I'm not familiar with it.
Since you didn't quote the whole poem it may not be relevant, but I take it from the context that simple swan hunting isn't the whole story there?
As for ring-around-the-rosie, it doesn't matter what version you use, Lobelia - they're just different versions of the same song, and I don't know why people are so desperate to connect a fun little kindergarten game with the plague, but if you're going to do it you should do so in full knowledge that no one who's researched the matter has come down in favor of that interpretation. The Opies know more about nursery rhymes in English than anyone else in the world alive or dead, and *they* say it's nonsense - though alas I refer to memory here, as I only have the American edition of the popular book, *The Opie Book of Nursery Rhymes,* not the full-blown scholarly work. The endnote on "ring-a-ring-a-roses" in this edition doesn't mention the plague one way or another, but gives an alternate version: "in Glasgow little children (and their mothers) continue to hold out against English radio and rhyme books, and sing:
Ring-a-ring-a-roses,
A cappie cappie shell,
The dog's awa to Hamilton,
to buy the wean a bell.
the wean'll no tak' it,
I'll tak' it tae mysel,'
ring-a-ring-a-roses,
A cappie cappie shell."
You could probably relate that to the plague if you tried hard enough, but it's like finding sexual innuendo and Satanism in children's books - more often doable than reflective of objective reality.
Stormkhan
Disturbingly familiar
- Joined
- May 28, 2003
- Messages
- 8,587
Many nursery rhymes are sung nonsense, their main function to act as a hypnotic for children with the tune and cadence. Their function as a form of oral history is very shakey indeed.
However, some are made up by children overhearing details of rumour or news of adults and not fully understanding the import. A good example is the Lizzie Borden chant...
"Lizzie borden took an axe,
she gave her mother fourty whacks.
When she saw what she had done,
she gave her father fourty one!"
Even a freudian has to admit sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
However, some are made up by children overhearing details of rumour or news of adults and not fully understanding the import. A good example is the Lizzie Borden chant...
"Lizzie borden took an axe,
she gave her mother fourty whacks.
When she saw what she had done,
she gave her father fourty one!"
Even a freudian has to admit sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2001
- Messages
- 5,823
And what about Jack and Jill....
The Jack and Jill story - French (history) connection!
The roots of the story, or poem, of Jack and Jill are in France. Jack and Jill referred to are said to be King Louis XVI - Jack -who was beheaded (lost his crown) followed by his Queen Marie Antoinette - Jill - (who came tumbling after). The words and lyrics to the Jack and Jill poem were made more acceptable as a story for children by providing a happy ending! The actual beheadings occurred in during the Reign of Terror in 1793. The first publication date for the lyrics of Jack and Jill rhyme is 1795 - which ties-in with the history and origins. The Jack and Jill poem is also known as Jack and Gill - the mis-spelling of Gill is not uncommon in nursery rhymes as they are usually passed from generation to generation by word of mouth.
The Jack and Jill story - French (history) connection!
The roots of the story, or poem, of Jack and Jill are in France. Jack and Jill referred to are said to be King Louis XVI - Jack -who was beheaded (lost his crown) followed by his Queen Marie Antoinette - Jill - (who came tumbling after). The words and lyrics to the Jack and Jill poem were made more acceptable as a story for children by providing a happy ending! The actual beheadings occurred in during the Reign of Terror in 1793. The first publication date for the lyrics of Jack and Jill rhyme is 1795 - which ties-in with the history and origins. The Jack and Jill poem is also known as Jack and Gill - the mis-spelling of Gill is not uncommon in nursery rhymes as they are usually passed from generation to generation by word of mouth.
A
Anonymous
Guest
id heard it was a attacker of lone women some where up north (salford?..).. with that in mind it makes sense...the boys makeing him run away refers to vigilantie patrols (al la jack the ripper)
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2003
- Messages
- 3,268
Who Really Killed Cock Robin? by Norman Iles, ISBN: 0709026307
-is a good resource book on the restoration of nursery rhymes and traditional carols.
He argues that A Ring O'Roses is basically a wedding song and his restored version is full of sexual symbolism.
It is a ring dance that has its roots in pagan celebrations and in the Gaelic, French and German versions there is no mention of death. He also found that rashes relating to the Black Death were never described as a ring of roses, in fact most of the rashes were dark in appearance. Therefore the plague became known as the Black Death. He also argues that Atishoo atishoo, we all fall down is a corruption of I kiss you! I kiss you!.
This rhyme being a modern parody:
Ring-a-ring o'geranium,
A pocketful of Uranium,
Hi-roshima,
All fall down!
(1949)
Jack and Jill is also mentioned...
Jack and Jill was a common term regarding a courting couple- Shakespeare uses this in A Midsummer Night's Dream
"Jack shall have Jill; Nought shall go ill; The man shall have his mare again; And all will be well"
Norman Iles argued that in 1765 when the rhyme first appeared in print, the rhyme was altered to make Jack break his crown and therefore altering the meaning to that of his skull, rather than Jill as this would relate to her losing her virginity. The woodcuts depicting the rhyme show two boys- the change of gender means to Norman, that a cover-up was being committed.
He restores the rhyme to:
Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pail of water;
Jill fell down, and cracked her crown,
And Jack came tumbling after.
Then up Jack got and on did trot
As fast as he could to court her;
Jill lay still- her pail* did fill
With milk and not with water.
*pail being slang for vagina
Although this isn't an academic book either. His reasonings behind Tower Bridge and Who Killed Cock Robin? as being fertility/sexual rhymes that would have been full of innuendo and have been *cleaned* up for the nursery are pretty convincing in a way. Although you need to remember that these are just his theories.
-is a good resource book on the restoration of nursery rhymes and traditional carols.
He argues that A Ring O'Roses is basically a wedding song and his restored version is full of sexual symbolism.
It is a ring dance that has its roots in pagan celebrations and in the Gaelic, French and German versions there is no mention of death. He also found that rashes relating to the Black Death were never described as a ring of roses, in fact most of the rashes were dark in appearance. Therefore the plague became known as the Black Death. He also argues that Atishoo atishoo, we all fall down is a corruption of I kiss you! I kiss you!.
This rhyme being a modern parody:
Ring-a-ring o'geranium,
A pocketful of Uranium,
Hi-roshima,
All fall down!
(1949)
Jack and Jill is also mentioned...
Jack and Jill was a common term regarding a courting couple- Shakespeare uses this in A Midsummer Night's Dream
"Jack shall have Jill; Nought shall go ill; The man shall have his mare again; And all will be well"
Norman Iles argued that in 1765 when the rhyme first appeared in print, the rhyme was altered to make Jack break his crown and therefore altering the meaning to that of his skull, rather than Jill as this would relate to her losing her virginity. The woodcuts depicting the rhyme show two boys- the change of gender means to Norman, that a cover-up was being committed.
He restores the rhyme to:
Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pail of water;
Jill fell down, and cracked her crown,
And Jack came tumbling after.
Then up Jack got and on did trot
As fast as he could to court her;
Jill lay still- her pail* did fill
With milk and not with water.
*pail being slang for vagina
Although this isn't an academic book either. His reasonings behind Tower Bridge and Who Killed Cock Robin? as being fertility/sexual rhymes that would have been full of innuendo and have been *cleaned* up for the nursery are pretty convincing in a way. Although you need to remember that these are just his theories.
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2003
- Messages
- 3,268
Well it appears then there is no clear consensus between the original meanings.
BTW I had never heard of the moon reference to Jack and Jill before. Any chance of further info?
BTW I had never heard of the moon reference to Jack and Jill before. Any chance of further info?
GNC
King-Sized Canary
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2001
- Messages
- 33,634
I just recall reading it in a long forgotten book, but a Google search of "Jack and Jill moon" comes up with a few sites connecting the rhyme to the moon (Norse legends and stuff). Nothing concrete, however, so it could be spurious.
The figures of Jack and Jill are supposedly visible in the face of the moon, and they go up the hill, ie rise in the sky, then fall back down again, ie set. That's all I remember!
The figures of Jack and Jill are supposedly visible in the face of the moon, and they go up the hill, ie rise in the sky, then fall back down again, ie set. That's all I remember!
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2004
- Messages
- 245
Any Fortean Nursery Rhymes?
Are there any nursery rhymes or songs which could be considered fortean? When I was a child my mother forbade me from singing "London Bridge is Falling Down." I still don't know why but always got an ominous sense of death surrounding the song. I questioned my mom some time ago but she said, rather unconvincingly, that she couldn't remember ever telling me not to sing it. Still her face looked very disapproving when I brought it up. Can anyone shed light on this and are there any other nursery rhymes with eerie/fortean associations?
Are there any nursery rhymes or songs which could be considered fortean? When I was a child my mother forbade me from singing "London Bridge is Falling Down." I still don't know why but always got an ominous sense of death surrounding the song. I questioned my mom some time ago but she said, rather unconvincingly, that she couldn't remember ever telling me not to sing it. Still her face looked very disapproving when I brought it up. Can anyone shed light on this and are there any other nursery rhymes with eerie/fortean associations?
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2001
- Messages
- 5,823
Not so, check here.
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 407
and, just for added spookiness, did you notice that the link referrred to above was last updated on this very day four years ago!
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 61
"London Bridge" is about human sacrifice. The girl in the song was buried alive in the foundation of the bridge to make it stronger. For related folktales, see http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html.
More about foundation sacrifices:
From http://www.users.cyberone.com.au/myers/maccoby.html:
From http://www.widdershins.org/vol1iss2/10.htm:
There are two biblical examples at http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm.
More about foundation sacrifices:
From http://www.users.cyberone.com.au/myers/maccoby.html:
From http://www.widdershins.org/vol1iss2/10.htm:
There are two biblical examples at http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/sacrifice_israel.htm.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2004
- Messages
- 245
surreal
Tezcatlipoca
I could scarcely believe this was true until I found more information that suggests the same thing at the following url. Spooky.
http://nurseryrhymes.allinfoabout.com/london_bridge.html
This site has another quite popular explanation.
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/Domino/folksonghistory2.html
Doesn't explain why my mother dislikes the rhyme tho. I think i'll pester her about it again.
Tezcatlipoca
I could scarcely believe this was true until I found more information that suggests the same thing at the following url. Spooky.
http://nurseryrhymes.allinfoabout.com/london_bridge.html
This site has another quite popular explanation.
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/Domino/folksonghistory2.html
Doesn't explain why my mother dislikes the rhyme tho. I think i'll pester her about it again.
ramonmercado
CyberPunk
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2003
- Messages
- 58,263
- Location
- Eblana
Heres something Fortean about Nursery Rhymes. pat
Nursery rhyme violence 'tops TV'
Nursery rhymes expose children to far more violent incidents than an average evening watching TV, researchers say.
A Bristol Royal Hospital for Children team found the frequency of nursery rhyme violence was more than 10 times greater than in pre-9pm programmes.
The tongue-in-cheek study examined 25 popular rhymes, Archives of Disease in Childhood reported.
Examples of violent incidents included Humpty Dumpty being hurt in a fall and Jack and Jill tumbling down a hillside.
Roll call of violence
Humpty Dumpty: Nasty head injuries from fall
Jack and Jill: Double hillside fall tragedy
Simple Simon: Tongue and finger injuries. Thrown to the ground by a cow
Six in a Bed: Repeated bedtime tumbles
Rock-A-Bye Baby: Cradle crashes to the ground from a great height
The researchers admit their study was not entirely serious - but they say it does make the point that blaming television for increasing levels of violence is too simplistic.
The researchers gathered data from TV regulator Ofcom on depictions of violence over a two-week period in 2001, in the viewing period between 5.30pm and 9pm.
They found 1,045 episodes of violence were screened on five UK TV channels during the two weeks.
Half of the TV programmes contained violence, compared with 44% of the nursery rhymes.
Powerful imagination
But the levels of accidental and aggressive violence were twice as high in the nursery rhymes as they were on TV, the researchers said.
Overall, there were almost five violent scenes per hour of viewing on TV - but there were more than 52 per hour of listening to nursery rhymes.
The researchers read the nursery rhymes to a toddler, but said it was difficult to gauge anything from the child's reaction.
Although nursery rhymes were less graphic than TV, imagination could be more powerful, they argued.
Television was twice as likely to show or mention the result of the violence, compared with the nursery rhymes.
"This allows the child, having heard a rhyme, to make their own image and conclusion as to the effects and outcome of the episode.
"At times this may be more disturbing than having the outcome spelled out, as children often over interpret the results of such acts."
It is estimated that 10% of all crime in England and Wales is committed by school-age children.
'Context key'
Brian Harrison-Jennings, general secretary of the Association of Educational Psychologists, told BBC News it was too simplistic to blame television alone for problem behaviour.
But he doubted whether nursery rhymes were a significant factor.
He said: "There is a certain element of fear and frightening behaviour in nursery rhymes, but the key is the context in which the violence is mediated to the child.
"Nursery rhymes are usually read to a child when they are sitting in a comfortable position with their parent's arm around them on the sofa, and the parent makes a joke of it.
"In that way, the child is able to enjoy the fear and excitement of the nursery rhyme while being able to distinguish between pretend violence and real violence.
"This is not always the case with television, where a child may be watching frightening scenes alone."
Lee Miller, of the charity Young Minds, said the most important factor determining the behavioural development of children was their relationship with the key adults in their life.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/4019801.stm
Published: 2004/11/18 00:06:48 GMT
© BBC MMIV
patNursery rhyme violence 'tops TV'
Nursery rhymes expose children to far more violent incidents than an average evening watching TV, researchers say.
A Bristol Royal Hospital for Children team found the frequency of nursery rhyme violence was more than 10 times greater than in pre-9pm programmes.
The tongue-in-cheek study examined 25 popular rhymes, Archives of Disease in Childhood reported.
Examples of violent incidents included Humpty Dumpty being hurt in a fall and Jack and Jill tumbling down a hillside.
Roll call of violence
Humpty Dumpty: Nasty head injuries from fall
Jack and Jill: Double hillside fall tragedy
Simple Simon: Tongue and finger injuries. Thrown to the ground by a cow
Six in a Bed: Repeated bedtime tumbles
Rock-A-Bye Baby: Cradle crashes to the ground from a great height
The researchers admit their study was not entirely serious - but they say it does make the point that blaming television for increasing levels of violence is too simplistic.
The researchers gathered data from TV regulator Ofcom on depictions of violence over a two-week period in 2001, in the viewing period between 5.30pm and 9pm.
They found 1,045 episodes of violence were screened on five UK TV channels during the two weeks.
Half of the TV programmes contained violence, compared with 44% of the nursery rhymes.
Powerful imagination
But the levels of accidental and aggressive violence were twice as high in the nursery rhymes as they were on TV, the researchers said.
Overall, there were almost five violent scenes per hour of viewing on TV - but there were more than 52 per hour of listening to nursery rhymes.
The researchers read the nursery rhymes to a toddler, but said it was difficult to gauge anything from the child's reaction.
Although nursery rhymes were less graphic than TV, imagination could be more powerful, they argued.
Television was twice as likely to show or mention the result of the violence, compared with the nursery rhymes.
"This allows the child, having heard a rhyme, to make their own image and conclusion as to the effects and outcome of the episode.
"At times this may be more disturbing than having the outcome spelled out, as children often over interpret the results of such acts."
It is estimated that 10% of all crime in England and Wales is committed by school-age children.
'Context key'
Brian Harrison-Jennings, general secretary of the Association of Educational Psychologists, told BBC News it was too simplistic to blame television alone for problem behaviour.
But he doubted whether nursery rhymes were a significant factor.
He said: "There is a certain element of fear and frightening behaviour in nursery rhymes, but the key is the context in which the violence is mediated to the child.
"Nursery rhymes are usually read to a child when they are sitting in a comfortable position with their parent's arm around them on the sofa, and the parent makes a joke of it.
"In that way, the child is able to enjoy the fear and excitement of the nursery rhyme while being able to distinguish between pretend violence and real violence.
"This is not always the case with television, where a child may be watching frightening scenes alone."
Lee Miller, of the charity Young Minds, said the most important factor determining the behavioural development of children was their relationship with the key adults in their life.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/health/4019801.stm
Published: 2004/11/18 00:06:48 GMT
© BBC MMIV
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2004
- Messages
- 245
really good article Ramon. btw I like your name...Ramon
'Someone came knocking ....'
Ah yes, the wonderful Walter de la Mare. My favourite W.d.l.M. which I haven't thought about in years goes ;-
I spied John Mouldy in his cellar
Deep down twenty steps of stone
In the dark he sat a'smiling
Smiling there alone
I spied John Mouldy in his cellar
The rats ran in, the rats ran out,
And far and near a drop of water
Went whispering about
I spied John Mouldy in his cellar
The cellar that was dank and dim
I saw a slim brown rat of Norway
Creep over him ...
atc.etc.. There may have been other verses but I can't now remember ..... Creey though ...
I think the end of 'Someone Came Knocking' goes ...
Only the busy beetle , tap-tapping in the wall
Only from the forest, the screech owl's call
So I know not who came knocking, at all, at all, at all.
Ah yes, the wonderful Walter de la Mare. My favourite W.d.l.M. which I haven't thought about in years goes ;-
I spied John Mouldy in his cellar
Deep down twenty steps of stone
In the dark he sat a'smiling
Smiling there alone
I spied John Mouldy in his cellar
The rats ran in, the rats ran out,
And far and near a drop of water
Went whispering about
I spied John Mouldy in his cellar
The cellar that was dank and dim
I saw a slim brown rat of Norway
Creep over him ...
atc.etc.. There may have been other verses but I can't now remember ..... Creey though ...
I think the end of 'Someone Came Knocking' goes ...
Only the busy beetle , tap-tapping in the wall
Only from the forest, the screech owl's call
So I know not who came knocking, at all, at all, at all.
I think de la Mare also wrote "Life's Little Whirligig", about an old guy who was granted the wish of returning to his childhood days, and so entered an eternally-repeating time-loop thing, which is sort of Fortean.
Not exactly a nursery rhyme, but one of Grimm's fairy tales featured a homicidal, knife-wielding sausage, which if not Fortean is at the very least intensely peculiar.
Not exactly a nursery rhyme, but one of Grimm's fairy tales featured a homicidal, knife-wielding sausage, which if not Fortean is at the very least intensely peculiar.
odd rhymes etc...
Do I remember, from way back, some children's poem or story called 'The Glid of Glud'??? If I am not completely bonkers, and there WAS such a poem - what the hell was that all about???
I may also be wrong on this - but was it something to do with CLOCKS ????
Do I remember, from way back, some children's poem or story called 'The Glid of Glud'??? If I am not completely bonkers, and there WAS such a poem - what the hell was that all about???
I may also be wrong on this - but was it something to do with CLOCKS ????
Spookdaddy
Cuckoo
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 7,962
- Location
- Midwich
I remember a version of the following (which The Pogues used on the album If I Should Fall From Grace With God) being used in the playground when I was at primary school in the 70's - usually in order to upset our more sensitive peers.
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry
I'm pretty sure I remember it being used as a skipping rhyme as well.
There are dozens of different versions but I've read that they originate in a rhyme used by British soldiers during the Crimean War. Personally I suspect it's far older than that.
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry
I'm pretty sure I remember it being used as a skipping rhyme as well.
There are dozens of different versions but I've read that they originate in a rhyme used by British soldiers during the Crimean War. Personally I suspect it's far older than that.
The Glid of Glud ....
Do you know, rjm, you might just be right!!! Yes, that now starts to ring a bell - still don't know what it was all about though. I seem to remember my sister saying there was something scary about it .....
Do you know, rjm, you might just be right!!! Yes, that now starts to ring a bell - still don't know what it was all about though. I seem to remember my sister saying there was something scary about it .....
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2004
- Messages
- 245
Did some googling and found this nice board with some really morbid rhymes. It has the "worms crawl in and worms crawl out" rhyme as well.
http://www.blueblood.net/boards/showthread.php?p=3929
http://www.blueblood.net/boards/showthread.php?p=3929