Pub Closures
- Thread starter LordRsmacker
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Very true. When I was of their throng, it was entirely de rigueur.theyithian said:
However, having just text-ed my mate who is still deeply embedded among them, it is now a practice frowned upon. A pint, spritzer or G&T with food is OK - any more and expect the call, inviting you in for a little chat, from HR by 3.00 pm.
JamesWhitehead
Piffle Prospector
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All the energy that used to be pleasantly wasted in drinking and other informal behaviour is now squandered on back-watching, box-ticking and assessment. There will be spasms of awareness that something should be done about team-building to repair broken networks. The solution in one workplace was to hire a clown to lead an all-day workshop! Others, I've heard, go paint-balling. Box ticked!
I'm not defending lunchtime boozing. When it was the norm, I remember it as a depressing, smokey ritual. I have heard it recently disparaged as a seed-bed of blokeishness and mysogeny which kept women out of the loop. Ironically, the rush for the bar was always led by the women, where I worked!
I'm not defending lunchtime boozing. When it was the norm, I remember it as a depressing, smokey ritual. I have heard it recently disparaged as a seed-bed of blokeishness and mysogeny which kept women out of the loop. Ironically, the rush for the bar was always led by the women, where I worked!
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It's not the govt!
Although the Govt haven't been exactly helpful to pubs over the years the real blame for all the closures lies with the big pubcos (often referred to as breweries these are what a previous poster referred to as estate agents)
Companys like Punch and Enterprise Inns charge massively excessive rents and markup beer prices to more than 100% over what a non tied pub would pay. The landlord has to buy beer from the pubco at this inflated price or risk prosecution for breaking terms of lease. They operate a suicidal business model where they screw each landlord for as much as they possibly can get. They then evict them when they cant pay and install new landlord on a (very temporary) decent lease then the cycle starts again.
I am a publican myslef and I can tell you, if i ever shut it will be because of having to pay over £7k a month rent plus about £4.5k a week for beer that should only cost £2k! Add to this the cost of things like sky (£750 a month for me and my pub is tiny!) and electric (£900 a month) and there you have the reason the british pub is under threat. Good old fashioned corporate greed.
Although the Govt haven't been exactly helpful to pubs over the years the real blame for all the closures lies with the big pubcos (often referred to as breweries these are what a previous poster referred to as estate agents)
Companys like Punch and Enterprise Inns charge massively excessive rents and markup beer prices to more than 100% over what a non tied pub would pay. The landlord has to buy beer from the pubco at this inflated price or risk prosecution for breaking terms of lease. They operate a suicidal business model where they screw each landlord for as much as they possibly can get. They then evict them when they cant pay and install new landlord on a (very temporary) decent lease then the cycle starts again.
I am a publican myslef and I can tell you, if i ever shut it will be because of having to pay over £7k a month rent plus about £4.5k a week for beer that should only cost £2k! Add to this the cost of things like sky (£750 a month for me and my pub is tiny!) and electric (£900 a month) and there you have the reason the british pub is under threat. Good old fashioned corporate greed.
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Must be a regional thing. Where I live theres a movement to stop any more shops being turned into bars in the 'trendy' end of town. Pub closures are unheard of!
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Sadly I don't think it is regional. I had an ace article from the Times earlier this year showing pub closures across the UK and it was pretty averagely spread. It also showed the number of changeover of landlords and this was frightening, if I remember rightly the average pub landlord tenenacy length was around 16 months. Which all kinda ties in with benrsmith31077s epxeriences.
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Well its clearly not universal. Round here the old landlords have remained in place, business is booming and new restraunts and bars open and stay in place. What more can I say? Perhaps that Times article should have marked new ventures as well as loss of old.
One thing maybe a factor here. The demographic of the area changed and became more affluent with London types escaping full time to their bolt-holes by the sea, but I can't believe its the whole story.
I think its our habits and expectations that changed and perhaps those pubs that cannot offer what people want now just atrophy away.
Just a last thought, the only things round here that our Weatherspoons seem to have killed off is half of the nightclubs. The pubs next to it seem to thrive.
One thing maybe a factor here. The demographic of the area changed and became more affluent with London types escaping full time to their bolt-holes by the sea, but I can't believe its the whole story.
I think its our habits and expectations that changed and perhaps those pubs that cannot offer what people want now just atrophy away.
Just a last thought, the only things round here that our Weatherspoons seem to have killed off is half of the nightclubs. The pubs next to it seem to thrive.
JamesWhitehead
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There are pockets where business is booming. I know this from Southport, which I regularly visit. The town centre has the usual problem of struggling chain stores, pubs and eateries. It also has a growing reputation as an unsafe place after dark. The recent footballer thing was all too typical, though you can't always expect to be hit by a celebrity. I'm told by those who know that it is safer to drink in Liverpool these days, where there are firmer door-policies. Birkdale Village, however, has bucked the decline so far with a wide range of local shops and flourishing wine-bar style night-life.
It's not a formula which can be bottled and sold elsewhere - not even a mile and a half down the road in this case!
It's not a formula which can be bottled and sold elsewhere - not even a mile and a half down the road in this case!
There is simply too much on offer these days. Back in the early eighties when I first wandered into my local there were three television channels available, there wasn't an internet as we know it, the only take-aways were fish and chip shops (and that was for Fridays only in my house), no AppleTV to download the latest films in high definition and no text messaging. To keep in touch with your friends you went to the pub and discussed how each others' weeks had gone - instead of instantly reporting such matters via Twitter and the like. Choice, cheap off-licences and the smoking ban have definitely affected pubs, but it has been a slow decline over the years.
I have been a landlord and know first hand the workings of the various breweries. Like most big companies, they are governed by shareholders who demand a minimum gross profit from their landlords. If that isn't achieved, the pub closes or the landlord is replaced.
As for leases almost being given away, that is true. But as soon as a newbie landlord takes over a pub, turns it around and returns a decent profit, he or she will quickly see that lease renewed with a prohibitive monthly payment and they will be forced out of business and the brewery will step in, install a manager and ruin it again. And the whole cycle starts again . . .
I have been a landlord and know first hand the workings of the various breweries. Like most big companies, they are governed by shareholders who demand a minimum gross profit from their landlords. If that isn't achieved, the pub closes or the landlord is replaced.
As for leases almost being given away, that is true. But as soon as a newbie landlord takes over a pub, turns it around and returns a decent profit, he or she will quickly see that lease renewed with a prohibitive monthly payment and they will be forced out of business and the brewery will step in, install a manager and ruin it again. And the whole cycle starts again . . .
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On the contrary Rubydear, the fact you have similar experience and confirm benrsmith31077's interpretation makes your account very useful. I truly wonder if the concept of the pub will soon be limited to a few choice tourist cities (like my sad old Oxford) and left for the reserve of the tourists. Where the UK population will actually drink, who knows....at home? In Apple Mac designed wine bars? Something new?
When I worked in the pub industry (on and off between 1996 and 2001) a senior guy at Firkin (remember them?!) told me the whole pub industry was in decline and Firkin was a symptom of that problem. He said Firkin were really only trying to make what they could before the industry really struggled, by which time they would have hopefully made a mint in their property portfolio and then they would cash in their chips.
When I worked in the pub industry (on and off between 1996 and 2001) a senior guy at Firkin (remember them?!) told me the whole pub industry was in decline and Firkin was a symptom of that problem. He said Firkin were really only trying to make what they could before the industry really struggled, by which time they would have hopefully made a mint in their property portfolio and then they would cash in their chips.
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Rubydear, you expressed it so much better than I did!
On the plus side, as I said the business model of the pubcos is suicidal. They will eventually collapse. I have heard from several friends 'in the know' that Enterprise is circling the drain already. Luckily us landlords are protected by law so should the pubco go belly up then I will still be here (with a big smirk on my face I might add haha)
Increased pressure from things like the Fair Pint campaign are finally making MPs take note and look closely at the current situation. In my opinion the next year or so will see a major restructuring of the entire industry.
On the plus side, as I said the business model of the pubcos is suicidal. They will eventually collapse. I have heard from several friends 'in the know' that Enterprise is circling the drain already. Luckily us landlords are protected by law so should the pubco go belly up then I will still be here (with a big smirk on my face I might add haha)
Increased pressure from things like the Fair Pint campaign are finally making MPs take note and look closely at the current situation. In my opinion the next year or so will see a major restructuring of the entire industry.
As a long-time member of CAMRA (The Campaign for Real Ale), I'd like to ask Rubydear and benrsmith31077 as professional publicans (who may or may not also be CAMRA members) if they think that CAMRA's activities and policies are on the whole helpful towards the cause of supporting traditional pubs and beers, or misguided, irrelevant and/or counter-productive, as some spokespersons of (usually larger entities within) the Brewing Industry and Licenced Trade sometimes claim?
Stormkhan
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As a long-time member of CAMRA - and knowing of it's many unsung activities - I think the organisation still suffers from stereotypes and "bad" publicity. I mean, the public perception of it's activities and members ("Beardy-weirdies who moan about lager and the head of a pint") detractsa from the very real and reasonable concerns it expresses.
I know of publicans who will happily supply a damn good pint of real, real beer to a CAMRA member yet, once he's out of earshot, roll his eyes and chuckle over XYZ's fussiness. This, in turn, devalues the organisation in it's very real role as an official group, with as much professionalism and concern as any other Ombudsman group (which usually has a name beginning on OF-, such as OfWat, OfGen, OfNerk etc.)
While it really hurts me that part of the English landscape, history, social structure is thought to be defended by a tweed-wearing, fuzzy-faced, beer-pot carrying nerd, I can't see the Government doing anything except dropping it's trousers and bending over to the multinational, cheap-fizzy, high profit/low standard chains. This said, the real ale stalwarts have to recognise marketing and, maybe, use it rather than state it as one of the major sins committed by the Big Chains.
I know of publicans who will happily supply a damn good pint of real, real beer to a CAMRA member yet, once he's out of earshot, roll his eyes and chuckle over XYZ's fussiness. This, in turn, devalues the organisation in it's very real role as an official group, with as much professionalism and concern as any other Ombudsman group (which usually has a name beginning on OF-, such as OfWat, OfGen, OfNerk etc.)
While it really hurts me that part of the English landscape, history, social structure is thought to be defended by a tweed-wearing, fuzzy-faced, beer-pot carrying nerd, I can't see the Government doing anything except dropping it's trousers and bending over to the multinational, cheap-fizzy, high profit/low standard chains. This said, the real ale stalwarts have to recognise marketing and, maybe, use it rather than state it as one of the major sins committed by the Big Chains.
As someone who admittedly prefers the modern 'bar' to the trusty old local boozer, I thought I'd give an opposing viewpoint to the majority on this forum who give the reasons for pubs being better than bars etc. Not saying anyone is wrong here, its entirely down to personal preference, but this is my own viewpoint on the matter.
I'm 27, and admittedly very, very rarely go into traditional pubs, but frequent bars on a weekend. As a wee nipper, there was only one option available to me and my friends in our small Welsh valleys village - a local pub. All good, as so long as you weren't a troublemaker the barman would usually turn a blind eye to your obvious underage status! Plus, most people we knew from school would be there also, so it was a good communal meeting spot on the weekend. Plus, at best I could manage 5 pints a night in those days, so a nightclub was usually out of the equation.
Once some young people reach say, 20+, needs change. 1) Women - lets face it, you very rarely see a group of hot young females in a local boozer. If there are any women at all, they are usually 20+years older than you (as a young man) and usually tied in some way to one or more of the other local patrons. 2) Drink - I don't like real ale, and to be perfectly honest, I don't like lager - therefore, for me personally, my choice in the average pub is between Carling, Carlsberg and Strongbow. Give me a modern bar with a modern stockroom anyday - most modern style bars stock around 5-15 top quality strong beers from around Europe, even the world. And I'm not talking Stella and Budweiser here. 3) Atmosphere - face it, young people want a vibrant atmosphere filled with peers. A pub doesn't offer this.
On a final note, although the lack of all the 3 pointers mentioned above is what makes people love their local boozers (no pretention, peace and quiet, and sadly, no strangers) - it is the age group between 18-30, the 'binge drinking generation', if you will, that spends THE MOST money on alcohol on a weekend; and if this market is not tended for then a pub must realise it will struggle financially - again, I am far from suggesting pubs need to change their traditions or values, just accept this as being reality. Finally, I feel a WHOLE lot safer being in modern style bars, or contintental type bars....why? These venues - if run properly - usually see themselves as a cut above; therefore, no chavs are allowed, no groups of rowdy blokes are welcome if they seem like trouble, and a sensible but flexible dress-code is observed. I fear for being punched far more in a local pub inhabited by - in my rugby-obsessed neck of the woods - steroid-using no-neck monsters dying for a ruckus, who would never set foot in 'one of those poncey style bars' as they don't sell Stella. That, is totally and utterly fine with me!
I'm 27, and admittedly very, very rarely go into traditional pubs, but frequent bars on a weekend. As a wee nipper, there was only one option available to me and my friends in our small Welsh valleys village - a local pub. All good, as so long as you weren't a troublemaker the barman would usually turn a blind eye to your obvious underage status! Plus, most people we knew from school would be there also, so it was a good communal meeting spot on the weekend. Plus, at best I could manage 5 pints a night in those days, so a nightclub was usually out of the equation.
Once some young people reach say, 20+, needs change. 1) Women - lets face it, you very rarely see a group of hot young females in a local boozer. If there are any women at all, they are usually 20+years older than you (as a young man) and usually tied in some way to one or more of the other local patrons. 2) Drink - I don't like real ale, and to be perfectly honest, I don't like lager - therefore, for me personally, my choice in the average pub is between Carling, Carlsberg and Strongbow. Give me a modern bar with a modern stockroom anyday - most modern style bars stock around 5-15 top quality strong beers from around Europe, even the world. And I'm not talking Stella and Budweiser here. 3) Atmosphere - face it, young people want a vibrant atmosphere filled with peers. A pub doesn't offer this.
On a final note, although the lack of all the 3 pointers mentioned above is what makes people love their local boozers (no pretention, peace and quiet, and sadly, no strangers) - it is the age group between 18-30, the 'binge drinking generation', if you will, that spends THE MOST money on alcohol on a weekend; and if this market is not tended for then a pub must realise it will struggle financially - again, I am far from suggesting pubs need to change their traditions or values, just accept this as being reality. Finally, I feel a WHOLE lot safer being in modern style bars, or contintental type bars....why? These venues - if run properly - usually see themselves as a cut above; therefore, no chavs are allowed, no groups of rowdy blokes are welcome if they seem like trouble, and a sensible but flexible dress-code is observed. I fear for being punched far more in a local pub inhabited by - in my rugby-obsessed neck of the woods - steroid-using no-neck monsters dying for a ruckus, who would never set foot in 'one of those poncey style bars' as they don't sell Stella. That, is totally and utterly fine with me!
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Once you hit 40 mate your perspective may change.
All I want is a quiet boozer where I can sit and read a book in peace without teenagers making noise and a decent pint of ale rather than lager.
Thankfully I have a Wetherspoons only a hundred yards or so from where I live. 8)
All I want is a quiet boozer where I can sit and read a book in peace without teenagers making noise and a decent pint of ale rather than lager.
Thankfully I have a Wetherspoons only a hundred yards or so from where I live. 8)
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An overly long anecdote:
I am about to return to the UK, and was supposed to be running a lovely country village pub I used to frequent.
It is owned by Enterprise.
It's in the CAMRA Good Beer bible.
Over the five or six years I drank there I saw five different landlords. They all bought a ten year lease for approaching a hundred grand, they were all strangers to the area, they all initially gained and then lost custom - everyone went out of curiosity, everyone stopped going when they decided they didn't like the new folk, or the beer wasn't so good, and doubly so when the couple behind the bar started whinging incessantly about not making any money. The leaseholders invariably sold the lease back to Enterprise, cut their losses and ran. The only really consistant thing about that pub, apart from a few die-hard regulars, was the barmaid, my good friend S.
The whole economic crisis thing (probably) meant that while I've been away there were no new idiots-who've-never-run-a-pub-or-been-to-the-village-before to buy the lease when the last lot had had enough, so the pub closed.
An ex Enterprise rep lives in the area and uses the pub. A lot of local people got in touch with him to say they wanted the pub to be open, and they wanted S to run it. The rep guy arranged for a third party management company, North Light (?), to technically take over and employ S to run the place. The locals made a real effort to keep the place going with their custom, S worked all the hours God sends whilst also being a (mature) student, business has been better than it has in a decade. She was taking over three grand a week wet sales and begged me to return to the UK to help out with the bar and to get the food side of things up and running (I was trained to be and was an assistant manager, cellar manager and brewer in a Whitbread brew-pub many years ago, and have also helped run a kitchen before). The pub also has rooms and is an accredited 2 star B'n'B in a vaguely touristy and very pretty area.
North Light were paying S 400 quid a week to run the place, pay staff etc but the terms of her employment were that they need only give her one week's notice, so it's not terribly secure. I don't know the details of North Light's arrangement with Enterprise.
Interestingly, apparently one thing that really did help business along was that S would lock the doors and illegally allow smoking after 10.30pm. I expect that will upset a few of you. Nonetheless, I have spoken to two regulars of the boozer in question who are over here on holiday (strangely enough), one a smoker and one not, and both approve wholeheartedly of everything S is doing with the place.
In order to try and make a real go of it, with the help of the rep bloke we looked into the figures. They are astounding. The rent is 500 quid a week. The alcohol is approximately twice the real going rate to buy, and you have to buy it from them, and there's a linux box in the cellar that reports every drop out of the pumps back to HQ. You have to pay three grand a year for accounting, which you could easily do yourself. You are responsible for the upkeep of an almost two hundred year old building. Plus there are all the bills, insurance etc etc etc.
Even so, the place is just about capable of breaking even, serving the community and giving two local girls a place to live and a job to do. So we were negotiating a tenancy - ten grand for a couple of years, not 80-odd like the lease. We were trying to get the rent down, mainly, so that we might even make a little money. Enterprise are tricky people to bargain with, but with the help of the ex rep and his connections we were almost there.
And then a new couple of out-of-town idiots came out of the blue and signed up for the lease, no negotiations.
That pub will be closed again within 18 months.
I expect it will be charming apartments in 3 years.
People tell me Enterprise are in financial trouble.
They want shooting in my opinion.
I am about to return to the UK, and was supposed to be running a lovely country village pub I used to frequent.
It is owned by Enterprise.
It's in the CAMRA Good Beer bible.
Over the five or six years I drank there I saw five different landlords. They all bought a ten year lease for approaching a hundred grand, they were all strangers to the area, they all initially gained and then lost custom - everyone went out of curiosity, everyone stopped going when they decided they didn't like the new folk, or the beer wasn't so good, and doubly so when the couple behind the bar started whinging incessantly about not making any money. The leaseholders invariably sold the lease back to Enterprise, cut their losses and ran. The only really consistant thing about that pub, apart from a few die-hard regulars, was the barmaid, my good friend S.
The whole economic crisis thing (probably) meant that while I've been away there were no new idiots-who've-never-run-a-pub-or-been-to-the-village-before to buy the lease when the last lot had had enough, so the pub closed.
An ex Enterprise rep lives in the area and uses the pub. A lot of local people got in touch with him to say they wanted the pub to be open, and they wanted S to run it. The rep guy arranged for a third party management company, North Light (?), to technically take over and employ S to run the place. The locals made a real effort to keep the place going with their custom, S worked all the hours God sends whilst also being a (mature) student, business has been better than it has in a decade. She was taking over three grand a week wet sales and begged me to return to the UK to help out with the bar and to get the food side of things up and running (I was trained to be and was an assistant manager, cellar manager and brewer in a Whitbread brew-pub many years ago, and have also helped run a kitchen before). The pub also has rooms and is an accredited 2 star B'n'B in a vaguely touristy and very pretty area.
North Light were paying S 400 quid a week to run the place, pay staff etc but the terms of her employment were that they need only give her one week's notice, so it's not terribly secure. I don't know the details of North Light's arrangement with Enterprise.
Interestingly, apparently one thing that really did help business along was that S would lock the doors and illegally allow smoking after 10.30pm. I expect that will upset a few of you. Nonetheless, I have spoken to two regulars of the boozer in question who are over here on holiday (strangely enough), one a smoker and one not, and both approve wholeheartedly of everything S is doing with the place.
In order to try and make a real go of it, with the help of the rep bloke we looked into the figures. They are astounding. The rent is 500 quid a week. The alcohol is approximately twice the real going rate to buy, and you have to buy it from them, and there's a linux box in the cellar that reports every drop out of the pumps back to HQ. You have to pay three grand a year for accounting, which you could easily do yourself. You are responsible for the upkeep of an almost two hundred year old building. Plus there are all the bills, insurance etc etc etc.
Even so, the place is just about capable of breaking even, serving the community and giving two local girls a place to live and a job to do. So we were negotiating a tenancy - ten grand for a couple of years, not 80-odd like the lease. We were trying to get the rent down, mainly, so that we might even make a little money. Enterprise are tricky people to bargain with, but with the help of the ex rep and his connections we were almost there.
And then a new couple of out-of-town idiots came out of the blue and signed up for the lease, no negotiations.
That pub will be closed again within 18 months.
I expect it will be charming apartments in 3 years.
People tell me Enterprise are in financial trouble.
They want shooting in my opinion.
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Indeed, see my first post on this thread, which features a robust view of Wetherspoons by a former landlord.
They are to your local what Tesco are to corner shops.
They are to your local what Tesco are to corner shops.
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I'm told they buy almost out-of-date beer and sell it cheap. I kind of approve of their no-music-no-tv policy, and their real ale and affordabilty ethic, but they are characterless warehouses frequented by malodourous alkies, in my experience.theyithian said:
I'm the more fragrant type alky, you know, the sad-eyed old woman you always used to see standing at the bar, probably a looker in her day but clearly ruined
/edit/ apologies to CarlostheDJ who said exactly that about Wetherspoon's beer 3 pages and several months ago - I heard it from these publican types I've been dealing with recently also. I'm also not suggesting everyone who drinks in Wetherspoons is a tramp, either, because obviously I have been in several, or I wouldn't know the clientelle, just that they are usually fairly urban and attract 'habitual drinkers', who, in urban areas, in my experience, tend to look as if they've just been let out of the Laughing Academy.
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Thanks for the stuff about modern pub management, Lizard23. Certainly rings true. A definite case of killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, in the search for shareholder's profit margins.
A lot of breweries have been doing similar to their managers and tenants, for years, too.
A lot of breweries have been doing similar to their managers and tenants, for years, too.
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On a personal level it's quite depressing - my ticket's booked and I'm headed home to be homeless and unemployed, but I'm a big the-pub's-the-hub-of-the-community person and it hurts on a personal and public level to see corporate greed screw people over again and again without even being successful and the heart torn out of a beautiful village. I understand the Post Office is up for closure too.
Wonderful. Can't wait to get back :/
Wonderful. Can't wait to get back :/
Spookdaddy
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As I think I said back on the smoking ban thread - I just wonder how much more rapacious the breweries have become knowing that public perception as to the reasons for the problem will generally be shifted onto the smoking ban and the credit crunch rather than their own behaviour.
My favourite toolshop is closing because the landlord has increased the rents to a ridiculous level. The guy who owns it tells me that everyone assumes it's because of the crunch and starts banging on about the government - it doesn't seem to have any effect when he tells them that, although he has of course been affected, he could have survived if the landlords hadn't been so voracious.
My favourite toolshop is closing because the landlord has increased the rents to a ridiculous level. The guy who owns it tells me that everyone assumes it's because of the crunch and starts banging on about the government - it doesn't seem to have any effect when he tells them that, although he has of course been affected, he could have survived if the landlords hadn't been so voracious.
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Or, help organise some sort of co-op venture, pub & post office & village shop, combined?Dr_Baltar said:
Just don't let the likes of that Brian off the Archers get involved.
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Spookdaddy said:
Apropos of very little, Labour MP Tom Harris wrote the other day that one of the things he feared about opposition is that a vocal strand in the Labour party would spend most of the five years between elections drawing up an ever-longer list of things they would ban, and, in doing so, make the party utterly unelectable.
At the time I was undecided about the smoking ban (possibly leaning in favour) and on the fence about a hunting ban (possibly leaning in favour, too) . Nowadays I'm firmly against both prohibitions and exceedingly wary of the idea of banning anything beyond that which actually prevents society functioning.
A Labour government has made me more liberal; whoda thunk it?
Quake42
Warrior Princess
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There's always been an authoritarian wing of the Labour Party, going right back to the Webbs, who of course supported sterilisation for those who didn't meet the glorious socialist ideal.
Recently this authoritarian group has captured the party and has become increasingly shrill, intolerant and ban-crazy. I opposed the smoking ban for various reasons - not because I am a huge fan of smoky pubs. I believe that adults are capable of making choices and negotiating themselves, without the need for constant government intervention. The government talks a great deal about market solutions - was there not a perfectly obvious market solution to this issue? If there was a demand for non-smoking pubs and restaurants, then more establishments would convert to smoke-free.
Predictably of course the ban-happy are not content with banning smoking in pubs but are now trying to ban it within 50 yards of doorways and - incredibly - in private cars. Smokers are now not the only ones to be scolded of course - there must be hugely expensive campaigns against "binge drinkers" (now defined as 2 pints of beer!) and the "obese" (again, a definition which seems to cover millions of people with a perfectly normal body shape). There's no end to the new puritanism. It's a dreadful state of affairs.
I'm actually surprised the Tories haven't made more of an effort to promote themselves as the party of liberty. Perhaps the puritans have taken over them as well.
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- East of Suez
Quake42 said:
With respects to this debate at least, there are a few good eggs in the Tory party - David Davis springs to mind - but the leadership seems actually to be heading in the opposite direction. Both Cameron and Osbourne (IIRC) have both made speeches in the last twelve months that attack the libertarians in the conservative movement as 'not caring about individual people'. The Tories have always been torn. There're the old classical liberals who want to be left alone to make money and think everyone can do likewise if we get the fundamentals right and free society of obstacles (laissez-faire), then you've got the old-guard who would ban everything that doesn't comfortably suit the Home Counties...
The Liberal Democrats really have suffered. Given the option, they gave up on the old Liberal Party and became the SDP in all but name. Most unfortunate. A real liberal party that espoused both economic and socially liberal policies would, politically speaking, be where I belong.
Quake42
Warrior Princess
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2004
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The difficulty is that economic liberalism - certainly if taken to extremes - leads to enormous disparities in wealth and status, which in turn leads to crime and disorder. The only way to keep a lid on this is to have increasingly illiberal social policies. I suspect that's the real reason why classical liberalism has not prospered. It simply wouldn't work.