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Religion As A Whole

With due respect, beekboo.... I feel obliged to turn that question around... Assuming that there is in fact a Supreme Being, Creator of the entire Universe (please stop and think about THAT one for just a moment would you?) , champion of what is Right, bestower of eternal life, etc, etc, etc... you would question such an entity's "right" to praise? I think if there is insecurity at play, it is at least a 50/50 call as to whether it is manifest in God, or in the person who would question God's right to praise... If you don't believe in God, fine... but...

On a more broad but related subject, I have to say... and again, I really had no intention of getting deeper into this (still waiting to hear how, in a godless, rudderless universe there is ANY incentive to do "good", or even if the term "good" has real meaning in such a universe) ... I am a bit disappointed at the banal reasons often cited for disillusionment with religion and God... Church is boring? Human beings are sometimes hypocrites? Life is unfair? This is the basis on which something as fundamental as belief in God turns? If you don't want to believe in God (or gods!), fine, but jeez...

Also... I find myself a bit disappointed in the snotiness of a distressing number of my fellow Forteans. It is one thing to not share someone's views; it is quite another to treat such a person with disrespect, condescension, and broad-brushed bias. The explicit and implicit dismissals in this chain, of those with a religious bent, as intellectual lightweights, cowards, bigots, and simplistic bumpkins is not worthy, in my view, of folks with truly open minds. When you dismiss those of faith - or really, of any and all faiths - I think you are cutting a pretty broad swath through some of history's finest thinkers.

It might surprise at least some of you to learn that I am not what most would consider "formally religious". I just find some of the smugness here a bit off-putting.

Shadow
 
Good arguement Shadow. I have only one comment/observation. I believe in a god, a supreme being/force that is the culmination of all the 'good' that has been achieved by humans down the ages. I believe this accumulation to be the antithesis of 'evil'. It is this which keeps us 'keeping on'. I am happy to believe the scientific theory of how we arrived here; I just think it is the humanity of man that keeps us going.

I don't feel the need for an organised and corruptible (corrupted?) religion to tell me that I have to thank/praise somebody/thing for that.
 
I'm sorry, but how does me questioning the motives of a supreme being mark me out as insecure? And yes, I have thought about the concept; I wouldn't be on this message board if I didn't think. The reason I don't believe in a god is because I have thought about it, long and hard, and to me (and this is my personal opinion, mind, I am allowed one) it just seems fundamentally silly. Why does the universe need one? If as a creator, this is flawed to me. The universe coming into being on it's own is slightly less unlikely than a supreme being coming into existence on it's own and then creating the universe.
And no I don't think there is any incentive in "being good" in the universe we live in. The universe is amoral. We, fortunately, are a social species however, and are more or less designed to be nice to each other, experience love etc. Love doesn't mean there's a god. It means there's an endocrine system.
I am despite all this, open minded about it, and a very spiritual person. I believe there's very likely much more to life than we at present understand, and I look forward (though not too eagerly) to finding out what it is. I just find the creator-god hypothesis unconvincing.
I'm sorry you think us smug and disrespectful, but I think you're wrong there. It's the fortean way to take the robust approach with other people's beliefs. We don't question religious beliefs any more rigorously than we would someone who came on this board saying they believed in the existance of the Loch Ness monster. Oh and the name's spelt Beakboo.
 
Ya know, Beak, point well taken - if you are questioning the motives of a Supreme Being, maybe you are monsterously secure... even ASTONISHINGLY secure... ;) I only meant to suggest that anyone who could accept the existence of the Creator of the Universe, but would then seem to begrudge that Creator praise..hmmm...

I am not going to get into whether the very notion of a Creator is, as you put it, "silly" (sillier than a self-starting Big Bang?) and I DO wonder what it means to claim to be "spiritual" in a universe that is, in your view, godless and amoral... in which "love" is no more than a function of primate biology... but I applaud and respect you for having the courage of your convictions - if there is no God or no gods, if it is all random, chaotic, and chance-driven, then I quite agree..amorality seems to be the only sensible strategem; everything else is squeamish senitmentality. That is part of why I asked the question.. so many posts trashing religion and/or the notion of a god, but ending with platitudes about being a nice person, living a good life, respecting others, etc. If someone wants to consign God or gods to the rubbish heap, and postulate a coldy scientific Universe, then I think they ought to concede that we should all act with simple, narrow selfinterest, and be done with it. Right and wrong become nothing more than matters of opinion, fashion, and such, with no real significance.

As to the perceived smugness..please go back and read the posts discussing the mindlessness, stupidity, shallowness, and hypocrisy of the religious..and then ask yourself if what you are reading is a simple disagreement over principle or fact (which would, I contend, be quite Fortean), or animus.

Not trying to make this personal, Beak..my questions were general. But I did find myself a bit surprised at your assertions re God and worship... apologies if I expressed my surprise harshly.

Shadow
 
Shadow said:
If someone wants to consign God or gods to the rubbish heap, and postulate a coldy scientific Universe, then I think they ought to concede that we should all act with simple, narrow selfinterest, and be done with it.
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I feel you are treating human beings as very two-dimensional objects, Shadow. People can believe in both science and a god.

Many scientists are devout religious people. Not all people who believe the 'big bang' are necessarily agnostic/atheists. Is it not possible to combine the two? Not everything has, as yet, been explained and by admitting that there are things that we don't, as yet, understand we are still leaving the door open for 'supernatural' intervention.

But on a basic level you don't need a god to tell you what is right and wrong.
 
"I am not going to get into whether the very notion of a Creator is, as you put it, "silly" (sillier than a self-starting Big Bang?)"

well to me actualy... yes it does sound sillier than a selfstarting Big Bang

What i really wanted from this thread when i started it was for religious people to give me some reasons as to WHY they belive. Not so i can slate them, so i can understand peoples minds better i suppose. So can someone who belives in god tell me why?
 
Why do I believe in God?

Because I believe some things defy explanation. Because of the fleeting moments in my life when I have 'felt' some kind of benign presence. Because even when I've been at my lowest, I haven't felt totally alone. Because of the feeling of never being alone in a Church. Because some things that happen in the world are so weird that it's difficult not to think there's some 'Higher Being' behind it all (whatever you choose to call that higher being). Because I believe there is more to humanity than 'one minute you're alive, next oblivion'. Because it 'feels right'.
 
I only meant to suggest that anyone who could accept the existence of the Creator of the Universe, but would then seem to begrudge that Creator praise..hmmm...
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Interesting point.

If there is a 'creator' why should he/she/it/they require to be told by that creation that they did a good job? Why should we actually be greatful for being dragged out of oblivion to pander to a cosimically sized ego? I, for one, see no reason. I don't feel the need, nor am I expected, to call up the plumber, who fitted my central heating, once a week and tell him he did a bloody good job, even though he did, and I know he exists.

From another post and a seperate sub topic:-

...on a basic level you don't need a god to tell you what is right and wrong.
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Is there actually a standard of universial good and evil? Certain civilsations have had human sacrifice at their heart, the walling up of live children a necessity, the mutilation of themselves as a requirement. Were/are they actually evil? From their POV are we evil? To be honest, from where I stand, the only commonality I can see in the various cultures down the ages is a predilection for sticking holes in ourselves and putting ink under our skins.

8¬)
 
I'm not going to praise anyone for my creation. I didn't ask for it, it's not as I would have wanted. All I can do is try to make the best of a bad lot. In fact, I'm bloody pissed off with whoever is responsible. If He/she/it has a problem with that, they doubtless know where I am, so they can come and bloody get me.
And no smiting from on high. They should face me in person/deity.
 
Ah, but all this is explained in the bible-"My way is not your way" says Yahweh. Hey that rhymes! Perhaps that 4th glass was a bad idea after all.
 
beakboo said:
Ah, but all this is explained in the bible-"My way is not your way" says Yahweh. Hey that rhymes! Perhaps that 4th glass was a bad idea after all.
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Having read the book numerous times, he always struck me as a petty b*st*rd. To put is more eloquantly, a war god made good...

8¬)
 
I still want him to come and fight me. I am a far greater War God than he!
 
If there is a higher power , I think we have to accept we can have less comprehension of it than a fish has of the internet.

I don't choose a belief in God but I think I have a God shaped hole in my psyche.... "if God didn't exist we'd have to invent Him" (who said that???).

We don't have a clue about what lies outside our very small pond, apart from keeping in mind how much even the cleverest fish does't know:)
 
To go back to a slightly earlier point, and hopefully to divert this thread from becoming another pointless "Does God exist" argument, I am quite surprised at the large number of vehement atheists on this board who maintain there is no God, and that we're each a pile of biochemicals evolved over many years into us lot, neatly wrapping everything up as if the question has been answered.
Take a look at the pictures this week showing the Milky Way from the outside. Consider how insignificant we are, and all of that which we have yet to explore. And consider the many things that are not seen. The possibility of dimensions outside that of our own. The sum total of our knowledge is infinitesimal compared to the rest of the Universe, but some continue to believe that because we have digital watches and some sound theories it's all sorted. Now I don't have the monopoly on the definition of what is Fortean, but for me it's that sense of wonder, about things we can't explain, about things we haven't yet seen, and about making your way discovering new things outside of what we think we know. I don't really like the term "open-minded" but I can't think of a better one - the number of people who have switched off to other possibilities is a little disappointing, and dare I say it, joyless.
Besides, it seems most people have a beef with organised religion, and that's most definitely a question for the social sciences to answer.
 
I'm not sure if the need for a 'god' is hard wired or thrust upon us by culture. We need to be able to abdicate responsibility. I think god is a pretty good way of doing it.

'Mea culpa' does not come easily! Or simply the random noise of 6 bilion other people living at the same time as we do, causing an impact on our lives is harder to take on board than we can deal with...

8¬)
 
You're absolutely right, Dark Detective, maybe I shouldn't be calling myself an atheist, agnostic is probably more correct. I would never rule out the god thing, it just seems highly highly unlikely to me. I imagine a lot of people on the board have a problem with religion, both because of our upbringing, and the way society as a whole seems to take it as the 'gospel truth';) . It seems that 'faith' is a good thing when it comes to religion, but not good in any other area of life. To me it seems like society is suffering from a mass psychosis.
 
beakboo said:
To me it seems like society is suffering from a mass psychosis.
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Or at least just following the herd. My own theory on this worship thing is that it harks back to the influence of the Church on society over the centuries. Only scholars could read the bible and thus church gatherings were used to pass on the bible's content and rules to the illiterate masses, maybe under the guise of 'worship'. Whether this was done impartially or with an eye on controlling the masses is another matter ;). These ideas that if we do a certain thing on a certain day then we get a step closer to Heaven seems to be a psychological thing. It's a lot easier to haul your bum to church than it is to really, truly believe. Also the robes and ceremonies .etc. IMHO provide a tangible, earthbound link to something which otherwise would be unseen, untouchable and, without faith, absent.
 
Look at my thread (please)

I've just posted a summary of an article from New Scientist which would fit in very well with the arguements on this thread and would I think, shed some light on the debate. Please go and have a look, it took me ages!

It's 'The Science of Religion' in 'New Science', hope someone finds it interesting, because I did:D
 
When I made my first post on this subject, I did so with sincere reluctance, for many reasons...for one, I suspected any discussion would fairly quickly degnerate, given the passions involved... AND I realize this is a rather deep subject to be batted around in "discussion board" size bites...AND I know when I am out of my depth. Debating the existence of God is far beyond my modest intellect.

SO...

I suspect this will be one of, if not THE, last posts I make on this thread... (too cantankerous to say for sure! ;) )

I still feel saddened by the anger and bitterness I see here, none of which strikes me as Fortean at all... but again, that is just me. The level of anger here leads me to think that many claiming to be comfortable in their choice NOT to believe are deceiving themselves, at the least. Again, go back and read the blanket condemnations of believers as stupid, or dense or naiive..the bitterness and self-loathing in the posts about "not asking to be made" etc (can any clearer analogy with a petulant child be made? Haven't a LOT of parents heard exactly that angry rant?).

Second.... I still have seen very little response to my question from those who CONFIDENTLY assert the Universe is a godless, clockwork mix of atoms, as to whether there is such a thing as "good", and as to why anyone, in a godless, valueless universe should be anything but wholly selfish. So many who want to hold themselves up as godless feel the need to assert that they are capable of "being good" without any god or religion. Fine...but what does that mean, and WHY are they bothering? "Nature" is not concerned about "good" - the concept is meaningless. A predator does not spare the lame, the young, or the unfortunate out of a sense of goodness or mercy, and when that predator is old and lame or weak, Nature does not spare him either. In a godless, valueless universe, why should we behave any differently? Take what you can, when you can, whenever you can.

Last... I am not trying to convince anyone to change their views. I certainly make no claim to "having the answers". I felt the need to comment mainly because I was a bit disappointed to find Forteans, who I naiively imagined to have a higher than average capacity for wonder, speculation, open-mindedness, etc., so personally piling on those with belief, and using astonishingly banal, pedestrian jibes in doing so.

Having said that... we will all find out soon enough. THe only downside, of course, is that if the unbelievers are right, they won't have the satisfaction of a good "I told you so", since we will all simply be "switched off" when the Grim Reaper does come for us... ;)

Shadow
 
Dark Detective said:
Or at least just following the herd. My own theory on this worship thing is that it harks back to the influence of the Church on society over the centuries. Only scholars could read the bible and thus church gatherings were used to pass on the bible's content and rules to the illiterate masses.
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Actually the reason -or rather, the original reason, as there's little doubt that the practise was ultimately (ab)used primarily to maintain the Church's grip on power- for the tradition of priests being the only ones allowed to read, interpret and communicate the content of the bible stems from the early church's fear of people choosing to interpret the book literally.

I've been trying to track down the reference where I came across this for some months now, and without success, but one of the early Bishops (possibly one of the early Popes later on in his career but don't quote me on that) of -IIRC- Alexandria was well-known for fulminating against 'Biblical literalism' as the 'most fundamental of errors', to a degree that gave me the impression that he regarded it as the first step towards heresy.
 
Shadow said:
In a godless, valueless universe, why should we behave any differently

Shadow
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Excuse me, this goes on a bit, but if I might direct your attention to the middle section of the novel 'The Maltese Falcon' by Dashiell Hammett, I think I can answer that for you. (Assuming you get the point I'm making. Some people find it too subtle.) At that point of the narrative, Sam Spade tells Brigid O'Shaugnessey a story about one of his old cases.

Apparently there was this man called Flitcraft who'd gone missing and his wife wanted him found. Flitcraft's trail was quite obvious all the way from the little suburban home he kept with his wife, to the subway and into the city where he worked. Spade followed his trail past the newstand and along the sidewalk beside the site where a new skyscraper was being erected. Apparently at that point on his journey to work on the day of his disappearance, a girder had slipped from a point some stories above, and impacted the sidewalk a few feet behind Flitcraft, the blow knocking him from his feet and a chunk of concrete thrown up by the girder injuring him. Flitcraft went to casualty, got a couple of stitches and then vanished. Spade never found him.

A few years later, the wife turned up at Spade's office. Flitcraft had been declared legally dead and she was set to remarry, but there was a problem. She thought she'd spotted Flitcraft. And she was terrified by the thought that he'd vanished because of her: so she wanted Spade to go to the place where she thought she'd seen him, find out if it was Flitcraft and find out why he'd disappeared. So Spade goes off and finds the guy and lo!, it is indeed Flitcraft.

It seems that before the girder fell, Flitcraft had been secure. He'd controlled his life. He owned his house. He had a pretty wife. Life was good and he'd made it that way through his own efforts. And then a girder fell from the sky. All of a sudden he wasn't in control. The universe operated at random and all his work, all his life could be made meaningless in an instant by something as bizarre as a girder falling from the sky. So he ran away. If he couldn't control his life, there was no point to his home, his wife, his job, to none of it. Not if he could lose it so easily. So he rode the stock cars out of town and became a drifter. He worked the oilfields, he worked the lumber business, he did this he did that: he lived the meaningless life of a man who lives in a meaningless universe.

Eventually however, he arrived in a new town not far from the one where the girder had fallen, took a job pretty much like the one he'd run away from. Eventually he fell in love and remarried and he bought a nice little suburban house and basically made something of himself. Again. Because it was better than how he'd lived when he'd wandered about expecting girders to fall from the sky.

We make our own meaning. We make our own destiny.
 
RELIGION AS A WHOLE??

That's the title of this thread, but so far only the concept of the Christian God seems to have been discussed.

Most other religions worship a Godhead in some form or another, and as I've stated before, essentially the only difference from one religion to another is Concept of Deity and Method of Worship. IMHO.

Before Christianity reared it's very powerful and very convincing head ,:D there were belief systems which predominantly revered nature due to the agricultural ties to the land and the seasons.

All of us are aware of Mother Nature - back in those days, she was worshipped as the giver of life and the fertile Mother of us all.
Personally I see this form of worship as inherently sensible for the reasons given above, we are all made of the stuff that grows in the fields and swims in the sea and floats in the air - Pantheists have it that nature itself is Divine without necessarily conceiving it as a Deity.
Most Pagans see a dual Deity in the form of a God and Goddess in many differing ways.

On the Universal scale however, well the global Deities are seen as a facet of the One - The Creational Force

Godhead in other words, just a different concept.

Aside from Christianity and Paganism/Pantheism, does anyone have any other belief systems/religions that they would like to give a breif desciption of for the purposes of info/education?

It could be very interesting. (especially if we leave out the insults).
 
Thats a good point Quicksilver. When I started the thread I did have the Christian god in mind, and, as it may have been obvious to some, it was written in the heat of the moment when I was angry at somthing I had heard therefore wasnt the most thought out question on the board. As that was a long time ago I can post without my ideas being so close minded as before.

Are there any Buddist's on the message board? I admit to not knowing all it entails but I cant see how that paticular religon could be a negative force. (Athough am I right in saying some dont see it as a religion?)

Also how about the Eygption gods, the ones with the animalheads etc? are they still worshiped widly today in some places?
 
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