Repatriation Of Relics & Antiquities: News & Specific Cases

[Frideswide]

What about things like Mark Aurel Steins collection, which as he stated, the so say rightful owners didnt care for and didnt much mind him having?

Or, heck, private collections, which may not be accessed by scholars? (As most museums should be but some I have dealt with are pernickerty...)

This a general thing. Elgin Marbles are very specific.

I'm generally in favour of repatriation - which means something being asked for and deciding if the current ownership is valid.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Well... I am still in two minds about it.
Once all our museums have given everything away, they will have to close down.
Rather a lot of people depend on tourism for a living... including archaeologists.

The east stair of the British Museum contains enormous casts from Honduras and Mexico and others from the Valley of the Kings and Persepolis. I honestly doubt that the average tourist would have a clue that they are not the real thing (and that's not actually a criticism). These casts were made in the 19th century, and are pretty stunning - and the technology to make perfect replicas has clearly advanced massively since then. (Ironically - or maybe predictably - the casts are now a better record of the original objects, the latter having degraded in the intervening years.)

I think this is a very complex issue that cannot be addressed by a one size fits all solution - so don't assume that as an overall defence of repatriation, because it's not. It's just that I don't believe that sending things back necessarily creates the void many opponents of repatriation assume. I also believe that of the millions of items possessed by the BM relatively few will ever be the focus of such discussions. I'm a fairly regular visitor (in fact, I'm a member - cheap tickets to exhibitions, and a discount in the shop) but I find that my own fascination is with the small stuff - the vast bulk of which I'm not in the least convinced that anyone is ever going to ask for.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Very pertinent story in today's Guardian.
A Greek archaeologist striving to protect Mykonos' ancient buildings was ambushed and severely assaulted, leaving him with broken ribs, facial fractures and impaired vision. The culprits are widely thought to be Greek property developers eager to concrete over Greece's ancient heritage to build money-making buildings.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...forts-to-preserve-ancient-heritage-of-mykonos

 

[Frideswide]

Well... I am still in two minds about it.
Once all our museums have given everything away, they will have to close down.
Rather a lot of people depend on tourism for a living... including archaeologists.

Giving away is a loaded term. The act of returning those pieces which are asked for and the process validated isn't gving away, any more than ing your family heirlooms back after a burglary means that they have been given away to you.

Why do you think that a museum would be emptied? That's both catastophic and black+ white thinking (in the CBT sense) . Is there evidence for this, beyond some sensationalist meeja stirring of the pot?

It's just that I don't believe that sending things back necessarily creates the void many opponents of repatriation assume. I also believe that of the millions of items possessed by the BM relatively few will ever be the focus of such discussions.

This! Absolutely!

 

[ramonmercado]

Well... I am still in two minds about it.
Once all our museums have given everything away, they will have to close down.
Rather a lot of people depend on tourism for a living... including archaeologists.

Plenty of British archaeological items to display and more space to display them.

 

[ramonmercado]

Very pertinent story in today's Guardian.
A Greek archaeologist striving to protect Mykonos' ancient buildings was ambushed and severely assaulted, leaving him with broken ribs, facial fractures and impaired vision. The culprits are widely thought to be Greek property developers eager to concrete over Greece's ancient heritage to build money-making buildings.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...forts-to-preserve-ancient-heritage-of-mykonos

You might not get so many physical attacks on archaeologists in the UK these days but there are some haters out there.

Archaeologists have condemned a Tory council leader's threat to dismantle all archaeological controls on development, saying that the regulations are necessary to protect the UK's unique national heritage.

Alan Melton, leader of Fenland District Council, dismissed opponents of development as "bunny huggers" in a speech last week. Archaeologists fear his views reflect a national threat to all heritage protection as a result of the government's determination to simplify the planning process to encourage development.

The principle that developers must pay for archaeological excavation – before construction work destroys sites – has led to a string of major discoveries in the past 20 years, including the "Prince of Prittlewell" (a royal Saxon grave on the outskirts of Southend), a pit full of decapitated skeletons that may have been victims of a Viking massacre in Dorset, the first purpose-built Tudor theatre in London, and a 5,000-year-old enclosure under Heathrow's Terminal 5. ...

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/jun/27/archaeologists-furious-bunny-huggers


Historical discoveries could be at risk if government does not put archaeology at the heart of its new planning reforms, experts have warned.

Archaeologists, academics and professional bodies have launched a campaign to ensure their work with developers remains a legal requirement.

It has the backing of TV academics Prof Alice Roberts and Dan Snow, along with a number of MPs and peers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57334928

 

[Kondoru]

Yes. But bear in mind the BM is an international museum with a very varied audience.

I doubt these folk are coming in to see the Sutton Hoo treasure or Pete Marsh.

Spookdaddy; do you love the Enlightenment Room best?

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

You might not get so many physical attacks on archaeologists in the UK these days but there are some haters out there.

Archaeologists have condemned a Tory council leader's threat to dismantle all archaeological controls on development, saying that the regulations are necessary to protect the UK's unique national heritage.

Alan Melton, leader of Fenland District Council, dismissed opponents of development as "bunny huggers" in a speech last week. Archaeologists fear his views reflect a national threat to all heritage protection as a result of the government's determination to simplify the planning process to encourage development.

The principle that developers must pay for archaeological excavation – before construction work destroys sites – has led to a string of major discoveries in the past 20 years, including the "Prince of Prittlewell" (a royal Saxon grave on the outskirts of Southend), a pit full of decapitated skeletons that may have been victims of a Viking massacre in Dorset, the first purpose-built Tudor theatre in London, and a 5,000-year-old enclosure under Heathrow's Terminal 5. ...

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/jun/27/archaeologists-furious-bunny-huggers


Historical discoveries could be at risk if government does not put archaeology at the heart of its new planning reforms, experts have warned.

Archaeologists, academics and professional bodies have launched a campaign to ensure their work with developers remains a legal requirement.

It has the backing of TV academics Prof Alice Roberts and Dan Snow, along with a number of MPs and peers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57334928

OK so whataboutery aside, have you finally come around to supporting those who appreciated the importance of ancient artefacts and strove to protect them - as Elgin did, or do you still condemn him as a "looter" for not allowing the marbles to be destroyed?

 

[ramonmercado]

OK so whataboutery aside, have you finally come around to supporting those who appreciated the importance of ancient artefacts and strove to protect them - as Elgin did, or do you still condemn him as a "looter" for not allowing the marbles to be destroyed?

Eh? I still see Elgin as a looter who stole Greek treasures with the help of an official of an occupying regime. I don'y buy into the bogus narrative of him being a philanthropist.

How does it follow that I can't support GENUINE ARCHAEOLOGISTS who protect their national heritage?

 

[Frideswide]

How does it follow that I can't support GENUINE ARCHAEOLOGISTS who protect their national heritage?

Speaking as a GENUINE ARCHAEOLOGIST... I agree with @ramonmercado on this. I don't understand why the two things are linked together/

 

[Frideswide]

But bear in mind the BM is an international museum with a very varied audience.

I doubt these folk are coming in to see the Sutton Hoo treasure or Pete Marsh.

If they are already travelling internationally then they can go to Greece.

If they are home grown... no reason why brits should have an especially cushy life after all - it might even make a miniscule dent in our traditional and continuing apathy towards other people's languages

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

If they are already travelling internationally then they can go to Greece.

If they are home grown... no reason why brits should have an especially cushy life after all - it might even make a miniscule dent in our traditional and continuing apathy towards other people's languages

Not all of us!
I'm pretty well fluent in French and my German, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese are still serviceable (my Hungarian is very limited though).
Now, as well as being an ambassador, learned historian and diplomat, Thomas Bruce the 7th Earl of Elgin was famously multi-lingual and continued studying languages well into his old age.
I still maintain that saving the remaining marbles from destruction was a very good thing that Elgin did. If Greece can now give assurances that they will be treated with the same respect and care that the British Museum has provided, then it makes absolute sense to transfer them to the Athens museum.

 

[Tempest63]

Before you know it we will be dismantling the Crown Jewels, but given that the governments of India, Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, as well as the Taliban, have all claimed ownership of the Koh-i-Noor, demanding its return ever since India gained independence, who would we give it to?
The British government insists the gem was obtained legally under the terms of the last Treaty of Lahore and still rejects the claims.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Before you know it we will be dismantling the Crown Jewels, but given that the governments of India, Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, as well as the Taliban, have all claimed ownership of the Koh-i-Noor, demanding its return ever since India gained independence, who would we give it to?
The British government insists the gem was obtained legally under the terms of the last Treaty of Lahore and still rejects the claims.

How far back do you go, with this repatriation thing?
Maybe the UK should ask for everything the French, Danes and Italians stole from us?

 

[ramonmercado]

How far back do you go, with this repatriation thing?
Maybe the UK should ask for everything the French, Danes and Italians stole from us?

A lot of the French (Normans) and Danes *Vikings) ended up settling in Britain and Ireland. The Italians gave you viaducts, roads, not to mention fish n chips shops and ice cream parlours.

 

[ramonmercado]

Let us reflect on the lines which Byron penned about Elgin:

Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behoved
To guard those relics ne'er to be restored.
Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatch'd thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred!

 

[Mouldy13]

Yes. But bear in mind the BM is an international museum with a very varied audience.

I doubt these folk are coming in to see the Sutton Hoo treasure or Pete Marsh.

Spookdaddy; do you love the Enlightenment Room best?

But that's exactly what I wanted to see, the Sutton Hoo helmet particularly is an outstanding treasure

 

[Spookdaddy]

...I doubt these folk are coming in to see the Sutton Hoo treasure or Pete Marsh.
Spookdaddy; do you love the Enlightenment Room best?

The Enlightenment gallery is like an old fashioned museum within a more modern one - it's a good starting point, but I don't visit every visit. And actually, the Sutton Hoo section is always quite crowded, and with an international audience (and there's always someone bent over Pete Marsh - quite often families; kids love a dead body!)

But that's exactly what I wanted to see, the Sutton Hoo helmet particularly is an outstanding treasure...

Yes, it's very impressive. But I actually find that I'm always more drawn to the Battersea shield - which most people seem to just glance at and pass by. Took some photos just a month or two ago:

Edit: My mistake. The last two images are not the Battersea shield, but the Witham shield - which is just as awesome. (Anyone else think owls when looking at the latter?)

 

[Mythopoeika]

That shield is a beautiful piece of work.
It would have taken a long time to make, so it must have been owned by somebody very wealthy and powerful.

 

[Frideswide]

Anyone else think owls when looking at the latter?)

She wants to be flowers but you make her owls...

 

[Spookdaddy]

She wants to be flowers but you make her owls...

I actually did at first wonder if they'd reminded me of the design from the Owl Service. But no - not a close match.

 

[titch]

Let us reflect on the lines which Byron penned about Elgin:

Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behoved
To guard those relics ne'er to be restored.
Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatch'd thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred!

lord Byron, a composer of mediocre verse and excellent doggerel.

 

[ramonmercado]

lord Byron, a composer of mediocre verse and excellent doggerel.

Indeed.

So Castlereagh has cut his throat!–The worst
Of this is, – that his own was not the first.
So He has cut his throat at last!–He! Who?
The man who cut his country’s long ago.

 

[maximus otter]

Critics fear Benin Bronzes could be privatized by royal heir​

"It was wrong to take them, and it was wrong to keep them," Germany's Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said while visiting Abuja, the capital of Nigeria, on December 20, 2022.

Baerbock, along with Germany's Commissioner for Culture and the Media, Claudia Roth, made the visit to return the first of 20 Benin Bronzes which were once looted from the west African region.

The artworks had been in Germany for 125 years, along with around 1,100 looted artifacts from the palace of the former kingdom of Benin, which is now in present-day Nigeria.

The objects made of bronze, ivory and other precious materials, are among the most important works of art on the African continent. Most of them were stolen by British colonialists around the year 1897.

Yet recent developments have some wondering if the Nigerian public will ever be able to view the returned bronzes in a museum — and if it even matters.

On March 23, Nigerian President Muhammadu Buhari announced that all restated artworks from the former kingdom of Benin would be given to the Oba of Benin, who is by right the original owner and custodian of the culture, heritage and tradition of the former Kingdom of Benin. This applies "both to artifacts that have already been returned and to those that have not yet been returned" according to Buhari. What Ewuare II does with the items is his decision.

The artworks could therefore be exhibited in his private palace museum, making it unclear whether they would ever be on display to the Nigerian public. It's also unclear whether or Ewuare II could sell the works to collectors.

https://www.dw.com/en/critics-fear-benin-bronzes-could-be-privatized-by-royal-heir/a-65550237

Berlin’s Benin bronze return a ‘fiasco’ as artefacts vanish​

(From the Times, paywalled)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...return-a-fiasco-as-artefacts-vanish-jq9xsn9cf

maximus otter

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Today's Guardian has posted no fewer than 3 articles about the Elgin Marbles.
Scores of posts were made by readers waxing lyrical about Britain's "theft" of the marbles and how civilised the Greeks were when we were just savages.
I dared go against the narrative by pointing out that Greek peasants had been smashing the marbles up to scavenge as building materials and, had Lord Elgin not saved the 40% of those remaining, they would probably all be destroyed and when the Greeks clearly didn't give a toss about their cultural heritage, at least we cared.
Guess who's post was censored by The Guardian?

 

[Kondoru]

Too nuanced for the Guardian.

 

[maximus otter]

Today's Guardian has posted no fewer than 3 articles about the Elgin Marbles.
Scores of posts were made by readers waxing lyrical about Britain's "theft" of the marbles and how civilised the Greeks were when we were just savages.
I dared go against the narrative by pointing out that Greek peasants had been smashing the marbles up to scavenge as building materials and, had Lord Elgin not saved the 40% of those remaining, they would probably all be destroyed and when the Greeks clearly didn't give a toss about their cultural heritage, at least we cared.
Guess who's post was censored by The Guardian?

l would suggest that approaches by the Greek government be greeted by the response from Arkell v. Pressdram.

maximus otter

 

[Mouldy13]

l would suggest that approaches by the Greek government be greeted by the response from Arkell v. Pressdram.

maximus otter

why?

 

[maximus otter]

why?

a) Because we acquired them legally, and have cherished and preserved them.

b) Because if we establish a precedent by returning them, what's next? Our museums would be virtually empty.

maximus otter

 

[Floyd]

why?

Always the ambassador for foreign relations that he is, I think Max is suggesting that the Greek Government should take a note from the aforementioned case, viz;

our reply is as follows: fuck off.