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Richard Dawkins

rynner2 said:
colpepper1 said:
Mary Midgely on Dawkins, Darwin and rhetoric. About 11 minutes in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b0 ... 20_09_2010
Just listened to it. It added almost nothing to the debate on Dawkins ideas. I reckon if he'd listened to it he was probably going "I didn't say that, or mean that, you're taking it out of context..."

Which is the problem with this thread, really. There's very little debate about Dawkin's actual words, but a load of woolly waffle about what people think he meant, or even what his opinions are on stuff he hasn't dealt with at all.

It's like a game of Chinese whispers: "I read in the paper that on TV this bloke said that he'd heard someone had read a book that says Dawkins reckons..."

Dawkins writes very well, expressing his ideas very clearly. The miasma of opinions and half-truths that settle around them is not of his making.
Well, I agreed with about 95% of what Midgely had to say about scientific reductionism and how Dawkins chose to couch his interpretation of gene theory, re individualism and selfishness.

However, as another guest, Richard Bean, pointed out, this didn't really tackle Dawkins' problem with anti-rationalism and religion. Although, I believe there is a link.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
However, as another guest, Richard Bean, pointed out, this didn't really tackle Dawkins' problem with anti-rationalism and religion. Although, I believe there is a link.

Dawkins has not distanced his biological theories from his personal opinions on religion. On the contrary, he's cultivated a link in the popular consciousness that plays well to those who promote the 'clever men' version of science - a clever man believes it so it must be true.

The bridge between biology and belief only exists in those already disposed to accept it - there isn't any connection that would stand scientific scrutiny. As Midgely pointed out, when metaphor is the driving force behind a theory it's not surprising that people paint alternative pictures.
 
rynner2 said:
It added almost nothing to the debate on Dawkins ideas.

It contributed a great deal. It's part of a groundswell that seeks to put scientists of Dawkins' proselytising variety back in their box.
 
Ha ha! coldpepper... have you some neurotic problem with people who strive all their lives, for the truth? Scientists, inventors, biologists etc? Your posts, throughout the years, have a repetitive string, all pointing to "reletivism", "Rationalists" and "Men in white lab coats telling the rest of us what is what" etc. Were you a beagle in your past life?
On a more mature note... When you accuse someone (Dawkins), of being misguided, or whatever, you should address him, so that he could, at least, respond. He's the expert you see, so whatever you throw at him, it's all a bit unsubstantiated, rather like me, saying that Rolf Harris is shit at art. ;)



*By the way, Rolf Harris is excellent at everything!*
 
colpepper1 said:
As Midgely pointed out, when metaphor is the driving force behind a theory it's not surprising that people paint alternative pictures.
This just shows how little you understand Dawkin's work. The 'metaphor' is not the driving force behind his theories, but an attempt to explain the theories to those without a scientific background.

An unsuccesful attempt, it seems, in your case - although it works for most of us! ;)
 
rynner2 said:
colpepper1 said:
Mary Midgely on Dawkins, Darwin and rhetoric. About 11 minutes in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b0 ... 20_09_2010
Just listened to it. It added almost nothing to the debate on Dawkins ideas. I reckon if he'd listened to it he was probably going "I didn't say that, or mean that, you're taking it out of context..."

Which is the problem with this thread, really. There's very little debate about Dawkin's actual words, but a load of woolly waffle about what people think he meant, or even what his opinions are on stuff he hasn't dealt with at all.

It's like a game of Chinese whispers: "I read in the paper that on TV this bloke said that he'd heard someone had read a book that says Dawkins reckons..."

Dawkins writes very well, expressing his ideas very clearly. The miasma of opinions and half-truths that settle around them is not of his making.

I have to agree. Dawkins seems to have become some sort of canvas for people to paint their prejudice and misunderstanding of a whole host of ideas that could be filed under 'Darwinism', 'Secularism', 'Rationalism' etc. I mean, Dawkins being blamed for individualist market excess?!? Come on!! It's extraordinary how rare he's actually quoted by his critics or how often his ideas are accurately summarised.
 
rynner2 said:
colpepper1 said:
As Midgely pointed out, when metaphor is the driving force behind a theory it's not surprising that people paint alternative pictures.
This just shows how little you understand Dawkin's work. The 'metaphor' is not the driving force behind his theories, but an attempt to explain the theories to those without a scientific background.

An unsuccesful attempt, it seems, in your case - although it works for most of us! ;)
Did you listen to Midgely's assessment of The Selfish Gene or are you stuck in a conceptual loop. She accurately portrayed the reductive search for individual biological units that mimic the physicist's structures. Science's penis envy if you will. And please, and most importantly, explain how this allegorical model gives Dawkins permission to sound off about religion?
 
coaly said:
Ha ha! coldpepper... have you some neurotic problem with people who strive all their lives, for the truth? Scientists, inventors, biologists etc? Your posts, throughout the years, have a repetitive string, all pointing to "reletivism", "Rationalists" and "Men in white lab coats telling the rest of us what is what" etc. Were you a beagle in your past life?
On a more mature note... When you accuse someone (Dawkins), of being misguided, or whatever, you should address him, so that he could, at least, respond. He's the expert you see, so whatever you throw at him, it's all a bit unsubstantiated, rather like me, saying that Rolf Harris is shit at art. ;)



*By the way, Rolf Harris is excellent at everything!*
Moderators, is this sort of ad hominem baiting acceptable? Or is it one rule for one and one for another? No wonder people say they stay clear of R&C.
 
My apologies, if you took it as baiting. It wasn't meant as such. I thought you'd take it in good humour. I did state afterwards, "On a more mature note..." indicating that I was being silly.
 
coaly said:
My apologies, if you took it as baiting. It wasn't meant as such. I thought you'd take it in good humour. I did state afterwards, "On a more mature note..." indicating that I was being silly.

I'm comfortable with the adversarial nature of the board, I just don't like judgements by moderators being imposed arbitrarily, or the condescending self-justification that follows.
 
colpepper1 said:
Did you listen to Midgely's assessment of The Selfish Gene or are you stuck in a conceptual loop. She accurately portrayed the reductive search for individual biological units that mimic the physicist's structures. Science's penis envy if you will.
I heard it. How accurate it is I doubt. Biologists discovered these 'individual biological units' via researching the facts. It's bad science to prejudge your findings. In fact, I might accuse her (and you) of using a metaphor to bolster your ideas.

And please, and most importantly, explain how this allegorical model gives Dawkins permission to sound off about religion?
None of us need permission to 'sound off about religion' - every human being is (or should be) free to compare his knowledge of the workings of the world against the myths, metaphors and legends that religion places before us.

I leave it to others to decide who is stuck in a conceptual loop.
 
rynner2 said:
I leave it to others to decide who is stuck in a conceptual loop.

And I leave it to others to work out which poster's use R&C as a personal propaganda tool.
 
rynner2 said:
None of us need permission to 'sound off about religion' - every human being is (or should be) free to compare his knowledge of the workings of the world against the myths, metaphors and legends that religion places before us.

Agreed - let's try and keep the threads within 'R & C' for just that sort of discussion and not for sniping, okay?
 
Names changed to protect the not so innocent. Text in bold is mine, not Rynners

rynner2 said:
Just listened to it. It added almost nothing to the debate on Jesus ideas. I reckon if he'd listened to it he was probably going "I didn't say that, or mean that, you're taking it out of context..."

Which is the problem with this thread, really. There's very little debate about Jesus' actual words, but a load of woolly waffle about what people think he meant, or even what his opinions are on stuff he hasn't dealt with at all.

It's like a game of Chinese whispers: "I read in the paper that on TV this bloke said that he'd heard someone had read a book that says Jesus reckons..."

Jesus speaks very well, expressing his ideas very clearly. The miasma of opinions and half-truths that settle around them is not of his making.

Blessed are the cheesemakers...
 
WhistlingJack said:
Agreed - let's try and keep the threads within 'R & C' for just that sort of discussion and not for sniping, okay?

Let's hope the unfortunate one-sidedness on that score is at at end. Believing a point has been made to ones own satisfaction does not justify a barbed conclusion. We live in hope.
 
In the interests of balance, a well-written response to Dawkins' speech at the weekend. Whether you agree or not (I'm a little from column A, a little from column B), it cogently raises points that make many uncomfortable with Dawkins (or, at least, Dawkins of late):

http://sharpesopinion.co.uk/2010/09/fear-and-atheism/

Fear and Atheism.

I watched this video of Richard Dawkins speaking at the ‘Protest the Pope’ rally with a mixture of disappointment, alarm and brewing anger. Disappointment at the way he failed utterly to use reason, or logic, or rationality in his speech, preferring instead emotive platitudes and fallacious diatribes. Alarm at the crowd of protesters cheering his every sentence, reserving their loudest jeering for his portrayals of the Pope as ‘an enemy’, and for his characterisation of ‘them’ as running scared from ‘us’. Brewing anger at the way the name ‘atheist’, which I have identified with ever since I first heard it, has been dragged through the mud over the last weekend by both the Pope’s ridiculous taunting and by Dawkins’ brawling mob of ‘secular humanists’ or whatever it is they’re calling themselves now.

I’m not even fully certain about writing this post, and it will be with a heavy heart that I press the ‘publish’ button and send my thoughts out to the wider world. Not because I would expect Richard Dawkins or any other of these prominent atheists to actually read my words, but because I’ve had such brimming respect for him and others for so long, and I’m sad that it’s rapidly dying away1. I read The Selfish Gene and The Blind Watchmaker and especially The Ancestor’s Tale, and they filled me with a sense of joyous wonder at the majesty of nature which I have never discovered through any religion – but right now, I find myself feeling that the author of these great books has lost his way.

When the Pope told us, during his overly-expensive-but-otherwise-mostly-harmless State Visit, that Hitler was an atheist and secularism is the root cause of the Holocaust, my first reaction was to laugh. I mean, Hitler? Really? Obviously, it’s unlikely the Pope’s ever been on a Usenet discussion group (though HM The Queen was sending email in 1976, so anything’s possible) but have none of his speechwriters, helpers, aides or support staff ever heard of Godwin’s Law? Whether Hitler was an atheist or not makes no odds, so apart from a little light ridicule, who gives a damn?

Apparently Dawkins does. Not only that, but he’s hell-bent on proving to you that Hitler not only wasn’t an atheist, Hitler was a Catholic. He devotes some five minutes of his speech to this – nearly half of the video. It’s still utterly fallacious; still pathetically stupid, still pretty much playground debating (‘you’re a Nazi!’ ‘No,you’re a Nazi!’) but nevertheless, the crowd aren’t saying ‘now hang on a minute’, they’re going bonkers for it. Yeah! The Pope’s a Nazi! And a kiddy fiddler! Woo!

Well I’m calling time on this. I’ve grown tired of Dawkins and his unholy crusade. I’ve been having misgivings for quite some time, but now I’ve had enough. Apart from anything else, I don’t know what he’s out crusading for. This used to be about atheists not being discriminated against – a problem for more relevant in the god-fearing southern states of America than here in broken Britain. In England, at least (and I appreciate it’s more complex in Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland), you can be pretty much anything from Atheist to Catholic to Jedi and rarely does anyone bat an eyelid. So what’s Dawkins’ problem?

Is it merely the existence of religion which so gets his goat? I’m as versed as anyone in the atrocities carried out in the name of religions, but is Dawkins really so certain, so absolutely sure, that religion itself is the very root of these problems, rather than merely being itself a symptom of a deeper problem with humanity? If Dawkins really believes that atrocities like the Crusades, the Salem witch trials, the Holocaust, the 9/11 attacks or the abuse of children by figures of trust and authority couldn’t possibly have happened without religion, where is his evidence for this? He does believe in the need for evidence, doesn’t he?

I’ve argued with many people over many years who’ve tried to tell me that ‘atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity or any other faith’. I’ve always tried to patiently point out the errant stupidity of this – that atheism has no core doctrine of faith; no unified hierarchy or organisational structure; no codified group of beliefs to which all atheists ascribe. The very idea of it is self-evidently oxymoronic.

And yet looking at Dawkins now, I see not a defender of rationality, not a beacon of light in an dangerous world of faith-based stupidity. I’ve begun to see a figurehead of a new and somewhat sinister religion. One which cares not at all about those genuinely positive things which have come from faith on a personal or global level. One which isn’t interested in introspection, or analysing the faults in the arguments on which it is based. One which is built on a foundation of hatred towards the members of all other religions, which is willing to persecute Catholics on the basis of atrocities they didn’t commit, and which sees all of this as a battle between ‘us’, the enlightened forces of good, and ‘them’, the irredeemably evil ones. The enemy.

I don’t know what that is, and I don’t know what to call it, but I’m certain that it isn’t the atheism I grew up with.

Star Wars seems to be about as close to a religion as the people I’m closest to have ever had, and strangely enough I feel like Star Wars has a lesson which can be applied here – Anakin Skywalker fell from grace because he began to hate, and to see others as his enemy. This sermon could end on no better note than with the words of Master Yoda – “fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate; hate, leads to suffering.”

From where I’m sitting, Dawkins already seems to have lead us to hate. I dearly hope that’s as far as his new crusaders go.

1. It’s worth mentioning that this doesn’t apply to all prominent atheists, either – Stephen Fry’s speech for the Intelligence Squared debate, for instance, is a wonderful example of an emotive yet still rational and reasoned argument against Catholicism, and Tim Minchin’s Pope Song [Caution - Very Explicit] is simply wonderful – though arguably that is as much a song about offence as it is about the Pope specifically [?]
 
Resorting to the distorted half-truths of Melanie Phillips' twisted mind? I hear the sound of a barrel bottom being scraped.
 
Dr_Baltar said:
Resorting to the distorted half-truths of Melanie Phillips' twisted mind? I hear the sound of a barrel bottom being scraped.

To be fair to Mel P she probably has a lower opinion of one of the world's major religions than Dawkins.

I wonderwhen she'll start writing her latest curtain-twitcher, Dawkinistan.
 
colpepper1 said:
She's only reporting what the roundhead said.

No she's not - she's spinning what he said. It's what outraged journalists with pretensions of cogent commentary do. There's nothing 'remarkable', 'startling' or 'jaw-dropping' about any of the truncated quotations and renderings of his opinions that she gives. In fact, they're probably as most people would expect.
 
Is it official now? Is Richard Dawkins God?

What other relation does this have to the thread?
 
What do you actually get out of this colpepper.

Lots of atheists would be the first to agree that Dawkins is a bit of a knob, and maybe more than a bit, but do you really need to keep bashing him incessantly?
 
Perhaps Colpepper is The Pope himself?
:)
 
BlackRiverFalls said:
What do you actually get out of this colpepper.

Lots of atheists would be the first to agree that Dawkins is a bit of a knob, and maybe more than a bit, but do you really need to keep bashing him incessantly?

Firstly, Dawkins has attracted a disproportionately huge number of unquestioning followers who have a viral quality, so if militant atheists think he's a bit of a knob they're keeping very quiet about it. Secondly, I'm illustrating that R&C has become the domain of obsessive compulsives who post versions of the same thing over and over and over again. It's very irritating, I've said as much quite often and been told by the mods such article dumps advance the theory or such such patronising twaddle.

I'm doing nothing different to the crap I have to read. Religion and Cults could be a great opportunity to debate the stuff in the title. It isn't, it's a roundhead blog for grumpy scientists.
 
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