• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

RMS Titanic: Theories, Exploration & Madness!

"if someone tells you that the hull is a mixture of say titanium/ carbon/ Teflon/ unobtainium etc etc that is “50 times stronger” than steel and far stronger than any other construction elements used in subs elsewhere, are “ new materials” “ pushing the limits” “ innovative” et al; it would difficult not to be persuaded"...

You actually believe corporate blarney? I automatically assume any pronouncement by politicans/corporations/interest groups is 90% BS & adjust reviews accordingly.

The CEO thing, though,....
 
I don't doubt carbon fibre, or a composite containing it, is strong, but it's not necessarily the best material for certain cases.
The fact that the Titan had been down to Titanic type depths on 60 previous occasions could point to a cumulative problem with the material. Micro cracks, fatigues or delamination have been mentioned.
 
DrPaulLee said:
As I said earlier, anything to do with the Titanic is a media magnet.
Click to expand...

And now, or in a few years time when the current media feeding frenzy has subsided, I wouldn't be surprised if some other company starts tourist trips to the Titanic once again, with an added bonus of viewing the site just a few hundred metres away where the Titan imploded.
 
In today's Guardian is their third article in as many days contrasting the media attention of the Titan with the "paltry" and "perfunctory" coverage of the overloaded people-smuggler's boat that capsized off the Greek coast.
The Guardian doesn't seem to appreciate that, whereas the terrible tragedy with the Pakistani migrants made the news after the event and with the hundreds of drownings already a fait accompli, we were told of regular knocking sounds thought to be coming from the Titan and public expectations of a possible rescue were stoked for four days - right up until the news of the debris field and sound of an implosion.
Right up until that grim news, whatever I was doing - working, gardening, eating, shopping or whatever, my thoughts rarely strayed away from the five people I thought were trapped in the submersible with the unimaginal horror of a dwindling air supply. For the media to sell us a ray of hope when there really wasn't any seems a shabby way to manipulate our emotions.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
In today's Guardian is their third article in as many days contrasting the media attention of the Titan with the "paltry" and "perfunctory" coverage of the overloaded people-smuggler's boat that capsized off the Greek coast.
The Guardian doesn't seem to appreciate that, whereas the terrible tragedy with the Pakistani migrants made the news after the event and with the hundreds of drownings already a fait accompli, we were told of regular knocking sounds thought to be coming from the Titan and public expectations of a possible rescue were stoked for four days - right up until the news of the debris field and sound of an implosion.
Right up until that grim news, whatever I was doing - working, gardening, eating, shopping or whatever, my thoughts rarely strayed away from the five people I thought were trapped in the submersible with the unimaginal horror of a dwindling air supply. For the media to sell us a ray of hope when there really wasn't any seems a shabby way to manipulate our emotions.
Click to expand...
I agree totally and also how the amount of oxygen and how long it would last kept changing and the banging sound heard every 30 minutes. Is it still happening or did it stop only when it was discovered the sub had imploded just after communication was lost?

The media hyped this tragedy for every last drop of blood, literally.
 
DrPaulLee said:
Yes that's true, but he often portrays himself as THE expert.
I was very dismayed to learn that most of his research for his 1997 flick was based on watching a few documentaries and reading some books. He hadn't even read the transcripts of the two 1912 inquiries. Then he got some experts on board who advised him. Some of their suggestions were taken on board.
Click to expand...
To be fair, he was making a Hollywood movie - and a very successful one - rather than a documentary, and I'm sure there have been numerous films with far more egregious inaccuracies.
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
In today's Guardian is their third article in as many days contrasting the media attention of the Titan with the "paltry" and "perfunctory" coverage of the overloaded people-smuggler's boat that capsized off the Greek coast.
The Guardian doesn't seem to appreciate that, whereas the terrible tragedy with the Pakistani migrants made the news after the event and with the hundreds of drownings already a fait accompli, we were told of regular knocking sounds thought to be coming from the Titan and public expectations of a possible rescue were stoked for four days - right up until the news of the debris field and sound of an implosion.
Right up until that grim news, whatever I was doing - working, gardening, eating, shopping or whatever, my thoughts rarely strayed away from the five people I thought were trapped in the submersible with the unimaginal horror of a dwindling air supply. For the media to sell us a ray of hope when there really wasn't any seems a shabby way to manipulate our emotions.
Click to expand...
It's all a bit tiresome when we are preached at for being interested in one thing and not the other by either side in the on going culture war
 
Cameron always tried to talk about his movie's accuracy in interviews, even though it wasn't a documentary as you said. Indeed, he even stated flatly "it's accurate." Which he damn well knew not to be the case then and now. Instead he hyped up only minor things he got wrong not the grotesque anachronisms.

One of the biggest error errors was having Jack at the dinner table with the chairman of the line. When it was admitted that he was from third class he should have been matched back off there. There were extremely strict regulations at the time governing segregation of third class because of transmittable diseases.
But then there wouldn't have been a film.
 
Cameron also made the Abyss and did a trip to the bottom of the Mariana Trench himself. He's not just the Titanic guy.
 
That's quite true. He also did further dives to the Titanic including "Ghosts of the Abyss." It's just bloody annoying when he's paraded as an expert. Like Dr "spin" Ballard, one of the first ports of call for the media - and he knows nothing about the ship either other than the basics.
 
DrPaulLee said:
Maybe it's time for me to leave this thread. Have fun!
Click to expand...

my-job-here-is-done-bye.gif
 
James Cameron, the film maker, is telling the news media that this submersible was “ doomed “ before the crew started.

James claims carbon fiber material is a death trap at these pressures.

Suleman Dawood age 19 told his aunt that he was “ scared shitless “ but was trying improve his relationship with his father.

I hope the spirits of the Titanic invited the spirits of the Titan to come over and visit.
 
I have seen documentaries where James Cameron and researchers have tried to work out how exact the titanic sinking depiction was in his movie some 20 years later.

The extent to which the stern rose out of the water before it broke and the manner in which the ship broke in half he thinks could not both have happened like in the movie. He is sure one is right and one is wrong but does not know which.
 
Sillyhuron said:
"if someone tells you that the hull is a mixture of say titanium/ carbon/ Teflon/ unobtainium etc etc that is “50 times stronger” than steel and far stronger than any other construction elements used in subs elsewhere, are “ new materials” “ pushing the limits” “ innovative” et al; it would difficult not to be persuaded"...

You actually believe corporate blarney? I automatically assume any pronouncement by politicans/corporations/interest groups is 90% BS & adjust reviews accordingly.

The CEO thing, though,....
Click to expand...
No, I absolutely do not... with respect my point was that it’s a part of the Human condition, that causes us to believe we are far better judges than we really are, and easier persuasion usually follows- ( quite often stealthed under confirmation bias) and often to an individuals detriment- call it arrogance, hubris, or even over confidence- they are all shades of the same state, whether it’s a market hawker selling sealed boxes of what turn out to be cheap tat, to someone pushing the merits of a cylindrical super strong “ groundbreaking’ design mini sub.
 
charliebrown said:
Suleman Dawood age 19 told his aunt that he was “ scared shitless “ but was trying improve his relationship with his father.
Click to expand...

I've viewed this whole tragedy quite dispassionately until now, but for some reason that one line made me feel very sad: some poor kid doing his best got caught up in a clown circus run by and for the super wealthy and died a horrible death while still in his teens.

Some people don't get dealt a hand they deserve.
 
Yithian said:
I've viewed this whole tragedy quite dispassionately until now, but for some reason that one line made me feel very sad: some poor kid doing his best got caught up in a clown circus run by and for the super wealthy and died a horrible death while still in his teens.

Some people don't get dealt a hand they deserve.
Click to expand...

better words than I managed to compose. Thank you @Yithian
 
DrPaulLee said:
Yes I know. That's what I said.
I was talking about pre existing hydrophones that were already deployed pre-accident.
Click to expand...
I know - not that I even knew the word hydrophone before. Useful data.

Post accident, there have been a few people talking to the newspapers who could have been on the sub but didn't like the look of it, felt it wasn't safe enough and declined offers/cancelled/delayed going on it.

At least if the end was very quick, that is a blessing for the passengers.

It seems some knew about the noise indicating an implosion - but it was classified info.

I do wonder why the media/news seemed to focus on a possibility of the people surviving, given it was so unlikely. It seems a strange thing to feed all these hopeful narratives to the public and to the families.
Was there nothing else for them to focus on?
A conspiracy theorist might suggest other news was being conveniently pushed down the schedules/papers/webpages by this story for some reason to distract or bury another story.

It is sad for the families. I suspect they wanted to believe the risks were lower than they really were. The sub had been on previous trips. These had perhaps weakened the experimental design/materials so an accident was more likely each time it descended.

Surely some sort of future legislation will deter anyone from experimental/commercial trips like these in the future.

I am reminded of the Challenger disaster in the 80s. Safety concerns were known/raised in meetings but not acted upon. That was a tragedy which did change future practices. Space exploration is risky, fatalities have occurred since, but I think the space programme would have continued at a faster/riskier pace if they had got away with sending Challenger there/back without the explosion. More risks would have continued to be taken until a fatal accident with the O rings on another shuttle....or until they changed/updated/improved the design whilst keeping the previous risky design flaws/near fatal accidents quiet....
Once you find out about space exploration history, it was so dangerous/risky - it is a wonder anyone got in a rocket.....
I do wonder why people are so interested in going undersea. Space seems more interesting to me.

I wonder what details will come out of any inquests/reports etc.
 
DrPaulLee said:
That's a good point. If UK citizens signed a waiver for a US company, can litigation be pursued under the laws of either or both countries. It would be very interesting to find out how much risk the passengers were really told about.

Ironically there's another Titanic connection here. Passengers were issued tickets which would exonerate the company in the event of an accident; the proviso was printed on the t&C's on the ticket. However, the families of some third class passengers sued the White Star line when it was proven that they hadn't been made sufficiently aware of the indemnity (so, not really applicable here, I grant you). The court agreed with the families.

It was also pointed out that the clause was written in a form that wasn't recognised by law and this went really badly for the company. The details of all this are buried in my mind but bits may bob back later.
Click to expand...
To be fair though you have to be totally lacking in perception to be unaware of the huge risks involved. But if the mega rich have one thing in common it seems to be the gigantic empty space in their brain where perception exists.

As far as any contract signed by the passengers is concerned (and you'd hope there was a contract for a $250k service) , any ambiguity, including liability issues, seems to be decided against the party drawing up the contract, at least in UK law. Possibly the same elsewhere. "The company won't be responsible for anything" won't hack it.
 
I think one of the things the media will jump on is the military not reporting the implosion.
In the world of constant media attention, and demands for details, the media outlets want someone to blame for not presenting the facts.
 
I suspect you may feel a brief jerk as you get sucked off your feet into an engine and maybe see a flash if you got nuked. This seems instantaneous although there is some speculation there could have been an alarm from the strain gauges in the sub. I read that some of the ballast had been dropped indicating they were trying to return to the surface. I presume that was found at a distance from the debris field showing it had separated before the implosion occured. At this stage it's difficult to know how much credence to place in any reports.
 
The media will take any hint or suggestion as 'fact' and publish it without proviso. Then ignore any real facts that come out later. It's how they come up with rolling news and feed the machine ...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top