• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Rome's Missing 9th Legion

M

many_angled_one

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
415
[Emp edit: The posts on the Dark Irish and the missing ships from the Spanish Armada have been split off to their own thread so we could focus on that particular line of discussion and leave this one for missing Roman Legions.]

As posted in the thread about Rome Untoppled, there is an old Scottish legend that the famous Hispania 9th legion, veterans of Spain marched North into Scotland sometime later on after the Battle of Mons Graupius, past Dunblane en route to the North.

They were never heard from again and the only mention of them afterwards appeared years later. The theory is that they were slaughtered by the picts and the disater was struck from Roman histories due to them being the only legion to lose their eagle, the symbol of Imperial Rome, in Britain.

A few years afterwards Emperor Hadrian ordered Hadrians wall to be built.

reading materials that mention it:
http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/ilex7/romans.html
http://www.roman-britain.org/military/9hispana.htm
http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/ix_hispana.html
http://members.tripod.com/~Halfmoon/
http://www.fife.50megs.com/pictish-scotland.htm
http://members.aol.com/Skyelander/mediev18.html

(might want to search for 9th or ninth ... a lot of text in there)
 
I seem to remember, although take this with a pinch of salt, that the reports of the famous Ghost Legion sighted marching through a cellar in York (featured by Arthur C. Clarke, various ghost tours and York Dungeons) featured mediterranean legionaries, leading some to postulate that this may be the last sighting of the 9th Legion. I believe that some of the other witnessed details corroburated this theory.

Might be worth looking into. I'll see if I can pull up any references...
 
The IX Legion was mostly based in York, and I think they retreated there after suffering heavy losses agaisnt boudicca in the rebellion so it could be from that.

The 9th was reformed years later on and appeared in Germany and Judea, I think it was slaughtered in Judea as well so neither of these mysteries is the last sighting of the 9th legion in the history books.

Perhaps the ghost legion are re-enacting their march North to where they vanished or were killed?
 
I seem to remember reading a book when i was a kid called The Eagle of the Ninth. Can't remember a lot about it though. Would this have been some sort of fictionalisation of the events?
 
Hello,

Jeez, I am getting nackered on the other thread.

York was very much a gateway into Scotland and if the 9th dissapeared in Scotland, the Romans would not have let a gap in its army exist and would definately reform. This is the main reason for the legend to be called a myth by some folk.

They would have either reformed (impossible if all were dead) and would certainly have re-created the next 9th legion.

There is no mysterious action there.

If you had 10 legions and the 9th was destroyed, you would simply gather more forces and fill the gap. This was the method.

Seeing the 9th months after in europe proves nothing.

Like saying that the Medieval Pope Boniface did not die because he is still there being a pope. He and the popes before him were different people filling the same shoes.

I was surprised that no one mentioned the un-welcoming terrain of Scotland as being a reason for our victory. People dont yet realise that the southern uplands of Lowland Scotland are almost as dramatic as those of the highlands.

However, people would be perpetuating a myth if they claimed that this reason alone is what stopped them. We are talking about a nation whose national boundries include the Alps.

No, the reason that I mention the terrain is the fact that the people used the terrain to their advantage. It is all very well being able to climb a mountain as an invader but we knew the mountains like the back of our hands. Guerrilla tactics galore.
 
Oh Oh,

I forgot to mention a smashing detail about the Roman Ghosts in York.

When they were sighted they appeared to be walking on their knees or seemed that they were walking without the lower leg.

On a trip to york, I asked the guide at what level in the ground would the Romans have been walking on. She said that their level or stratus was half a leg down.

I then found out that this was the developed idea and that the Roman ghosts did in fact have legs it was just that they were still walking on their archaeological level.

Brilliant!
 
The Eagle of the Ninth is a book by Rosemary Sutcliffe dealing with this exact subject matter. I recall reading it when I was nine or ten and it being good, but little in the way of details.

I believe the eagle was discovered, sans wings, in a hidden space in a wall by archaeologists investigating a roman town (I don't think it was york, but I'm not sure.)
 
Once a legion was destroyed or disbanded, I'm sure no other could have it's number, although if even a few admin staff or a small garrison had remained behind when the legion marched off to it's fate, it would still exist, which would explain how a 'destroyed' legion could reappear elsewhere.
 
And didn't a legion go missing somewhere in the North African desert too? I have no details at all, but will do a google if I have time tonight.

Going off thread a little, when my husband worked in Libya, he was told that there's still a lot of material to be found which was left behind by the Afrika Korps, and Monty's troops . . . how much truth there is in this I don't know.

Carole
 
There's bound to be the odd brewed-up Matilda or Pzkpfw III lying around in the Sahara. The Lady be Good was out there for years.
I read an account of a legion in Spain having a run in with a huge serpent, which it took a prolonged barrage from a battery of balistae and catapults to bring down. I can't remember who wrote it, or which legion it was.
 
There's also a novel, from the early 20thc, which deals with an underground Roman-descended civilisation under Scotland. They are, as I recall, descended from the missing legion. It was all a metaphor for the evils of facism and I'm buggered if I can remember the name of the book. Anyone know?
 
Inverurie Jones said:
I read an account of a legion in Spain having a run in with a huge serpent, which it took a prolonged barrage from a battery of balistae and catapults to bring down. I can't remember who wrote it, or which legion it was.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a Latin version of the Lambton Worm . . .

Carole
 
MrHyde said:
There's also a novel, from the early 20thc, which deals with an underground Roman-descended civilisation under Scotland. They are, as I recall, descended from the missing legion. It was all a metaphor for the evils of facism and I'm buggered if I can remember the name of the book. Anyone know?
Click to expand...

'Land Under England' by Joseph O'Neill. After a lot of searching for this I finally got hold of a paperback copy only to find the pagination was knacked. 'The Death Guard' by Philip George Chadwick is another anti-totalitarian Brit interwar sci fi classic.
 
hehe The Eagle of The Ninth was where I first heard about the diappearence of the 9th legion actually.

I heard years back the found the eagle, but I'm not sure of this at all.
 
did they go just to Scotland? or could thay have wandered into Ireland as well?

i have a friend who is pure irish-american...but he has distinct Spanish features. he said it is from the "spanish in ireland".
 
I don't really understand this "XXX-American" stuff. I can just about get Afro-American and Asian-American - you want everyone to know you weren't born in Africa or Asia, even though you look like you might have been. But Irish-American?? You might as well have English-American, French-American, Dutch-American, even Yorkshire-American. What's the difference appearence/genetics-wise?
There is almost certainly no such thing as 'pure' Irish - the Irish are all ultimately descended from immigrants and the Picts, Celts, Vikings, Normans and (probably) Spanish all had a presence in Ireland at one time or other.
 
Breakfast said:
I believe the eagle was discovered, sans wings, in a hidden space in a wall by archaeologists investigating a roman town (I don't think it was york, but I'm not sure.)
Click to expand...

A bronze eagle, possibly a leagionary standard, was found at Bath, when I was last there, in the early 80's, it was on display in the museum by the baths & was the stimulus for the story the Eagle of the Ninth & it's sequal The Lantern Bearers!!!!!!!!!!
 
up to their knees

Living in York, I've been on all the ghost tours,
the stories are of 3 main types
1/old traditional tales with bizarre folk motifs
2/ stories adapted from local news reports or ghost tourism books, often very changed, showing that the storytellers art is alive and well
3/ the too-good to- be -true high profile stories like the submerged Romans.
The chap who reported this ghost is an intelligent well respected man, just the sort of person in my opinion to make up such a clever tale. I particularly like the fact that he did not connect the sunken road himself with the footless legionaries
If a child or clueless tourist had seen them now-maybe that would be different
but probably not
 
oh yeah

And I am reliably informed that the eagle that inspired The Eagle of the Ninth was found in Silchester (wherever that is)

steve b
 
I know its a little late but yeah a lot fo ships did indeed get wrecked on the long trip round Scotland and Ireland.

Eburacum45 - the too-good to- be -true high profile stories like the submerged Romans.
The chap who reported this ghost is an intelligent well respected man, just the sort of person in my opinion to make up such a clever tale. I particularly like the fact that he did not connect the sunken road himself with the footless legionaries

As far as I know nobody had any idea the ground had risen since roman times at that time so he couldnt have known to make them legless.


On other matters since St Clair mentioned the Stone of Destiny which was described as being larger, all carved and like black marble.... how does that compare to the crappy piece of refuse rock that Edward I took with out ANY resistance to it?
 
From the Legio IX website

The Hispana was stationed at a fort near Newton-On-Trent from 44 - 50.
Then to Lindum (Lincoln) from 50 - 70.
And then to Eburacum (York) from 71 - 120.

In 60 Legio IX Hispana had the first honor of meeting Boudicca during her little excursion through the countryside of Britannia. Contrary to popular opinion the Hispana was not annihilated. Instead, a large force was sent south from Lindum to meet Boudicca's army. Legatus Petilius Cerialis managed to survive the first onslaught and escaped with his cavalry. We like to believe that the Hispana managed to hold Boudicca up for at least a day giving the rest of the units of the dispersed Legions an extra day or so to prepare and act. In all Legio IX Hispana lost at most 2000 milites gregarii which were later replaced with troops from the Rhine frontier.

In 71 the Hispana was moved from Lindum (Lincoln) to Eburacum (York). The fortress of stone at Eburacum was built in 108 by Legio IX Hispana.

Sometime during the reign of Hadrianus the Hispana participated in the construction of Hadrian's Wall, probably building a portion of the original turf rampart, but definitely stationed north of the Wall to protect the other Legions as they slugged and toted block, mortar, timber and dirt.

There is some evidence placing the Hispana in the Nijemegen region around 122.

Some scholars place Legio IX Hispana in the Lower Rhine region during the Second Dacian War. There is also some evidence placing the Hispana in Judea during the Second Jewish War, 132 - 135. The last known post of Legio IX Hispana was in Cappadocia (Armenia) and that information is sketchy.


From the 43ad Website

An active, and apparently loyal and respected legion, it likewise saw action in Spain between 30 and 19 B.C. after which it too was transferred to the German frontier, where little is known other than a tombstone of a colonist at Cales dated 14 B.C. It was then posted to Pannonia were it was permanently stationed apart from a brief campaign in Mauritania after which it returned to Pannonia (a province on the river Danube, now in central Europe). Why, then would they be used in a campaign almost at the other end of the empire? The probable answer, Aulus Plautius was their overall commander in Pannonia, and it seems natural for him to take one of his best legions with him for the campaign in Britain.

They were certainly in Britain during the revolt of Boudicca (60 A.D.) because they were severely mauled while trying to prevent the sack of Londinium. Much legend and myth surrounds the fate of this legion, fostered by the fictional work, ‘The Eagle of the Ninth’ by Rosemary Sutcliff. Truth they say is often stranger than fiction, and the fate of the Legio IX is not for this place, but, what ever it’s fate, we may never it know for certain, other than the legion was reformed after the decimations of Boudicca, and served in Britain until about 120 A.D. after which it’s presence at Nijmegan is attested.

Also worth looking at are Mark Martin's List of Legions of the Empire and Red Rampant's Legion List
 
victrix

for what it's worth, the VI legion Victrix were here too, on and off, right up to the withdrawal of the legions.
steve
 
St.Clair said:
...the Romans would not have let a gap in its army exist and would definately reform. This is the main reason for the legend to be called a myth by some folk.

They would have either reformed (impossible if all were dead) and would certainly have re-created the next 9th legion.

There is no mysterious action there.

If you had 10 legions and the 9th was destroyed, you would simply gather more forces and fill the gap. This was the method.

Seeing the 9th months after in europe proves nothing.
Click to expand...

I've had a nagging feeling since this was posted that it's wrong.

I'm almost positive that the three legions (the XVII, XVIII and XIX) annihilated in 9 AD by an alliance of Germanic tribes at the battle of the Teutoburg Wald were never replaced.

A quick google does seem to suggest that the history of these legions reaches a full-stop in the Teutoburg Forest.

A (very) quick browse through the catalogue of Legions also indicates that others were lost or disbanded which seems to go against St Clair's assertion.

It is logical that the Romans would fill the gap left by a destroyed legion but it doesn't appear that they necessarily adopted the number or title of the unit they replaced.
 
Spook said:
I'm almost positive that the three legions (the XVII, XVIII and XIX) annihilated in 9 AD by an alliance of Germanic tribes at the battle of the Teutoburg Wald were never replaced.

A quick google does seem to suggest that the history of these legions reaches a full-stop in the Teutoburg Forest.
Click to expand...

Yup! I think you are right, the eagles were lost at the time of the defeat, although, they were later recovered. But the legons, were never reformed!!!!!

I think that the eages were placed in a temple in Rome, but I nolonger have my copy of Tacitus to consult.
 
A legion that was destroyed could be reformed from others if there were a few survivors available and if the Emperor regarded that they had not disgraced the Empire. There was always a great deal of noise about such a reformation because it demonstrated the clemency of the Emperor and the importance of Roman values of sacrifice. Another reason was because defeated legions were considered unlucky until such time as the luck of the commander changed it.

There is no contention with the idea that it was deployed to guard the construction of Hadrians Wall, that is well attested. Therefore the argument that they were destroyed is based upon lack of evidence that they existed between this time and their deployment at Nimeijen. But also there is no evidence of the major battle required to destroy a legion even an understrength one. So no record of a battle, no record of reformation, no record of interuption to the construction of the Wall.

There is no record of attacks upon the wall builders which could have been made in the absence of the IX. They would have been even more vulnerable than a legion in battle order being strung out along the section they were building.

Rosemary Sutcliffe's book, which started the modern legend of a vanished legion, was based upon the history of the Roman Empire available to her. I remember reading it back in the 60's and even then it was attacked as being inaccurate and was defended on the grounds of it being a romance.
 
intaglio said:
A legion that was destroyed could be reformed from others if there were a few survivors available and if the Emperor regarded that they had not disgraced the Empire.
Click to expand...

Granted.

What I was reacting to was St. Clair's post which seems to suggest that a missing legion would always be reconstituted under its old number.

This would infer that a particular legion, once it was created, existed right through until the Roman army ceased to exist.

This isn't the case.
 
Spook said:
I've had a nagging feeling since this was posted that it's wrong.........A (very) quick browse through the catalogue of Legions also indicates that others were lost or disbanded which seems to go against St Clair's assertion.
Click to expand...
Yeah! I have looked for some evidence as well and found next to nothing to back up my sweeping assertion.

My academic knowledge of classical history is erratic enough without mastering those modern myths that have occured of late. My studies were always tainted by my own prejudices and interests. There are enough classical myths and legends to keep me going. I am also now a roman coin collector and so my eyes are somewhat tinted by certain sources that are not completely reliable in the use of historical research.

Ho hum.:) Anyway, in the meantime, I obviously stand corrected. I will post again if I find the source, which I believe to be from the coin market.....which is far from reliable I assure you.......:)
 
The Eagle of the Ninth

Recently I picked up Rosemary Sutcliff's The Eagle of the Ninth, which I had read as part of her Roman Britian trilogy when I was young. Unlike much youthful enthusiasms revisited, Sutcliff's work stands up well; well-written, atmospheric, human but not sentimental or anachronistic.

For those who don't know, the Eagle of the Ninth is the Eagle (standard) of the Ninth Hispana Legion, which marched North to Scotland to quell an uprising and disappeared without trace. It's a fascinating story, I'm trying to get my hands on more material about it. Is there any fortean link to it? The Eagle was an enormously powerful symbol of Roman power and prestige, and its loss was a great shame for the legion (much of the book revolves around the danger of such a talisman being in Pictish hands) Such an artifact, if it did fall into the hands of the Northern Tribes, would presumably become an important totem. Are there any traditions surrounding it?
 
Ave, Vercingetorix, and may the sky never fall on your head!

I found this link.

Carole
 
Thanks Carole, from reading the link and a site linked from that it seems that the Ninth Hispana didn't really disappear amongst the Pictish mist, but either disgraced itself in battle or was annihilated in Judea, or just disappeared... strange how "history" changes.

I never knew that Rosemary Sutcliff was confined to a wheelchair from an early age with the wasting Still's Disease. My admiration for her increases....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top