Satan demonised and a scapegoat

[Semyaz]

Apologies if their is already something on this here, or somewhere, but i just posted something similar on the ufology forum and thought it would be a good idea to start a thread here. So here goes...

One reason for the belief in the existance of Satan, at least the more modern or New Testament incarnation of him, is simply as a scapegoat. By personifying evil in the form of a single being, and blaming that being for all the evil in the world, humanity has abdicated itself of blame.

Whether Satan exists or not is irrelevant when questioning the actions of humans. We should be responsible for our own actions. Regardless of whether the Devil whispered the idea into our ear, we carried it out.

In fact, in the Old Testament, Satan, which is hebrew (stn) for 'the adversary', was an agent of God, and simply tested humanity. Ultimately, it was humanity that was responsible for its own actions and the consequences.

I'm getting sick and tired of people from all walks of life accusing others of being evil, or Satan, when we are all as liable to commit attrocities as the next person. It is nothing short of hypocritical, and achieves nothing but to shift the blame onto others.

And once a single being on which the blame could be passed was created, it could be used to demonise anything, for example, sex. The whole Devil as a goat thing, is thought to originate from an attempt to use the Greek god Pan as a way of demonising sexual behaviour by Augustine Christians.
The Cathars, who were more devil-shunners, were labelled Devil-worshippers by the orthodox Christian church.

I apologise for ranting and raving, but this is a sore point with me...believe me, i sometimes think i could go on for days...

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

As humans we are very good at finding scapegoats for things (curses, aliens, conspiracies, demons, God's wrath, etc., etc., - I suspect the list is huge) - it helps give order to things. Even if it is bad things happening to you it is then happening for a reason (rather than being senseless and random) and so helps us understand what has happened.

Or are you just miffed it is Satan being used as a scapegoat?

 

[escargot]

This is about rational thinking versus magical thinking.

You'd think we'd have got the hang of this by now, a couple of centuries after the Enlightenment. :lol:

 

[Jerry_B]

I'm not sure what the fuss is about. 'Satan' as a concept is simply a tag that's developed from within Christianity (with previous concepts helping it along, to a certain extent). As such, it doesn't matter really what it developed from conceptually. Satan is not the first attempt to personify what is considered to be evil, after all. Other cultures and religions have done the same thing in various ways.

Some of this ground has been covered before. For example, see this thread:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11184

 

[Semyaz]

I'm not sure what the fuss is about. 'Satan' as a concept is simply a tag that's developed from within Christianity (with previous concepts helping it along, to a certain extent). As such, it doesn't matter really what it developed from conceptually. Satan is not the first attempt to personify what is considered to be evil, after all. Other cultures and religions have done the same thing in various ways.

Exactly, which is what bugs me when fervent religious types demonise and attempt to ostracise anyone or thing outside of the their interpretation of everything.

Emps: True, humanity needs structure in an attempt to find its own place in the vast universe, what irritates me about the Satan scapegoat thing is that humanity uses it as a way of cleansing itself of blame.

Escargot: Whose to say that scientific and magical thinking can't co-exist? Just so long as its rational and doesnt stray to far... I mean, its all part of the same universe, isn't it?

 

[escargot]

Who says there's only one universe? :lol:

 

[Semyaz]

Touchee

 

[escargot]

:lol:

The further you go in science, the more abstract and 'supernatural' it appears. (Notice my use of the word 'appears' here!)
It also has a strong philosophical dimension.

One of the reason for my marriage breakup was the constant barrage of inexplicable events which the ex refused to accept even when they happened to him personally.

Poor dear. He prided himself on being a hardheaded scientific type and didn't take kindly to ghost cats, precognition, mindreading and polt activity. :lol:

He didn't blame the Devil, incidentally.

 

[Jerry_B]

Exactly, which is what bugs me when fervent religious types demonise and attempt to ostracise anyone or thing outside of the their interpretation of everything.

Well, it's not just 'fervent religious types' who do that sort of thing. Everyone does it to some degree.

 

[Jerry_B]

True, humanity needs structure in an attempt to find its own place in the vast universe, what irritates me about the Satan scapegoat thing is that humanity uses it as a way of cleansing itself of blame.

But Satan is the scapegoat figure in several religions. Similarly, some things are seen as God's will or blessing, etc. - which, it could be said, is as just as much a cop-out. It really depends if you suscribe to such beliefs or not. If you don't subscribe to a belief in Satan, God, etc. then I don't see what the problem really is - perhaps you should see it as more of a case of the particular way the mythology works in any given belief system.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Emps: True, humanity needs structure in an attempt to find its own place in the vast universe, what irritates me about the Satan scapegoat thing is that humanity uses it as a way of cleansing itself of blame.

But we don't need such structures but it does tend to make people feel better. Again I'd ask why you are so bothered about Satan as there is a huge list of similar entities/beliefs which people use. My auntie would be quite happy to pin the blame on someone wearing the colour green or magpies (interestingly she came to magpies later in life thn most but refuses to answer my question whether she was unluckier before she knew she had to greet them and/or say a little rhyme or whatever it is she does).

Escargot: Whose to say that scientific and magical thinking can't co-exist? Just so long as its rational and doesnt stray to far... I mean, its all part of the same universe, isn't it?

Magical thinking is very specific in the way the snail lady used it and can't really co-exist with scientific thinking. With magical thinking you link things that have no actual cause and effect relationship e.g. you win a gran on the lottery whilst wearing a red jumper and so you then always wear your lucky jumper to buy a lottery ticket or always make sure you have something red with you.

 

[Semyaz]

But we don't need such structures but it does tend to make people feel better. Again I'd ask why you are so bothered about Satan as there is a huge list of similar entities/beliefs which people use. My auntie would be quite happy to pin the blame on someone wearing the colour green or magpies (interestingly she came to magpies later in life thn most but refuses to answer my question whether she was unluckier before she knew she had to greet them and/or say a little rhyme or whatever it is she does).

I have nothing against people blaming the little pieces of bad luck or minor nasty actions on Satan, hell, i do it myself from time to time, it's just when they blame all the evil in the world and/ or accuse anyone even slight different from themselves as being evil or the devil himself.

Magical thinking is very specific in the way the snail lady used it and can't really co-exist with scientific thinking. With magical thinking you link things that have no actual cause and effect relationship e.g. you win a gran on the lottery whilst wearing a red jumper and so you then always wear your lucky jumper to buy a lottery ticket or always make sure you have something red with you.

I agree they are very different but surely that doesnt mean they can't co-exist. I mean, isn't being a Fortean exactly this. Believing in the wierd, wacky and unexplanable, and attempting to understand and explain using rational, and if posible, scientific thinking??

 

[Dingo667]

If you are interested in Satan as a mythological figure and read revelations, anyone with half a braincell can see that he is the logic one, the one that does what he does to escape the claws of god. It is excellent to read how god wants to forbid music and trading and arts. Its obvious that if you like those things, you convey opinion and where opinion is conveyed between people, they get educated and where people get educated they wake up and see how they are "kept" by this megalomanial god. So Satan wants "out" and starts a fight with lots of fire etc. I mean who wouldn't?
Also by saying that Satan is made a scapegoat in other religions I have to say not in all. In Hinduism there is no talk about good gods versus evil ones, there are gods who are doing one thing i.e look after animals and others like shiva [god of destruction] who is looked up at as much as the god of death. These are all sides of one coin and that seems to be understood in hinduism.
I could boldly assume that in the original scriptures Satan wasn't a scape-goat at all, he was probably merely one of the "actors" in the play. Only later when the church decided the bible was "holy" was it rewritten so that Satan missed out. But fortunately we all have a brain and can see through the misinterpretations...or can we?

 

[Jerry_B]

I have nothing against people blaming the little pieces of bad luck or minor nasty actions on Satan, hell, i do it myself from time to time, it's just when they blame all the evil in the world and/ or accuse anyone even slight different from themselves as being evil or the devil himself.

But why should it matter to you? The thing is, some people have decided to believe that Satan exists and has certain powers. Whether that actually matters at all to you is surely just a matter of opinion or belief?

 

[escargot]

It DOES matter, because believing in an external, independent force of 'evil' lets the human race off the hook, morally.

We are all products of our genes/environment/upbringing etc. But in the end, decisions about how to act are our own.

If we accept that The Devil makes us, or anyone else, act wrongly then we must collectively give up our claim to have free will and the power of independent thought and resign ourselves to the moral status of children or animals. That is, not responsible.

Discussing the existence or otherwise of Satan is a moral dead end in the 21st century and I am not wasting any time on it, so this is my last posting on the subject.

*Waits with bated breath for the usual comment from the cheap seats - 'The Devil's best trick was convincing humanity that he didn't exist.'*

You'll have to do better than that.

Oh yeah, and I'll enter Emps' lottery. I have a red sweater and I'd love to win a gran. :lol:

 

[austen27]

*Waits with bated breath for the usual comment from the cheap seats - 'The Devil's best trick was convincing humanity that he didn't exist.'*

Having read the Satanic Abuse thread recently I would say the Devils best trick is to make people see him in places where he is not.

 

[Hospitaller]

Satan, which is hebrew (stn) for 'the adversary'

Some concordances give this translation, but the word in its literal everyday use meant "hater" or "accuser".

By personifying evil in the form of a single being, and blaming that being for all the evil in the world, humanity has abdicated itself of blame.

I find this certainly to be the case amongst my Evangelical friends. I have on more than one occassion enquired of them as to why Satan would, of all the human race, be bothered to personally and specifically come and deceive them, pointing out that the prophet Jeremiah (17:9)said that "The heart is deceitful above all things". I marvel at the ego of someone who would believe that their heart is so pure that a personal appointment with none other then Satan himself is required to push them onto the left hand path!

The Cathars, who were more devil-shunners, were labelled Devil-worshippers by the orthodox Christian church.

Orthodox Christians (Greek or Russian) wouldn't like being lumped in with the Roman Catholic hierarchy who split western Europe from them and who accussed not only the Cathars, but the Templars too of worshipping the Frizzle Fry. IIRC various accusations of this sort were directed at the protestant reformers too and Miri Rubin's "Gentile Tales" is a disturbing & comprehensive account of the persecution of European Jews for having commerce with the Devil (by way of host desecration).

Although our European concept of an Evil One stems from Christian thinking, we have to remember that Christianity was once a very small Jewish sect and that the original concept must be traced to the Tanakh (aka, dismissively IMHO, referred to as the "Old" Testament) and other, non-canonical Jewish writings

Having read the Book of Revelation a couple of times I have to say that I didn't see any of the themes in it that Dingo 667 did. I suppose though we get out of a text what we bring to it and everyone will see different things. However, I'm not aware of any academic criticism of the text as a piece of JudaeoChristian apocalyptic writing that sees it as having been written from this perspective ... although I'm always willing to learn!
With regard to the Church "deciding" that the bible was holy, this had already been done with the greater part of it by the Jews way before the "Church" even existed. To these Jewish texts the Christians added their own writings, mainly comprising letters from Jews to other Jews, so the authors of these writings were writing from a decidedly Jewish perspective when it came to traditional religious concepts like Satan. Sure, Christian churches have done (and are still doing if you've seen any American Evangelical TV programmes!) a lot of surmising and novel thinking (from a decidedly Gentile perspective) around this old Jewish idea over the last two thousand years, but all of this after the early writings contained in the "New Testament" were written. Hence the "Satan" of the popular modern western Christian thinking (and consequently those at odds with it) is very often far from the Satan of the texts that the Jews and early Christians saw as representative of their everyday beliefs.

In conclusion I have to say that Jerry B's comment:

But why should it matter to you? The thing is, some people have decided to believe that Satan exists and has certain powers. Whether that actually matters at all to you is surely just a matter of opinion or belief?

is the most eminently sensible comment I've read on the topic of the Infernal One for yonks! Well said!

 

[ghostdog19]

Apologies if their is already something on this here, or somewhere, but i just posted something similar on the ufology forum and thought it would be a good idea to start a thread here. So here goes...

One reason for the belief in the existance of Satan, at least the more modern or New Testament incarnation of him, is simply as a scapegoat. By personifying evil in the form of a single being, and blaming that being for all the evil in the world, humanity has abdicated itself of blame.

Pretty much a natural instict. we distance ourselves from the 'wrong-doers' in society all the while. All the better if you can give that 'wrong-doer' a name because that distances them from you even more. Arguably, this is born of fear, fear that said individual is a human being much like ourselves. But if they commit murder or an act we consider unnatural, then in desperation we de-humanize them from us... disassociate them from the human race if you like. It's (arguably) a fear that we're human also and therefore capable of the same.

Sort of a knee jerk reaction if you like. Satan is this involuntary responce in its simplest terms.

More amusingly, however, a hundred or so years ago and before, a large penis was considered the difference between man and beast. A large penis = barbarian. Never is there mention of small penis' equating as civility, simply that a well endowed individual was evidently short of table manners. Again, a postulation rooted by fear.

To say 'the devil' makes us act wrongly ensures a conformity of sorts.

 

[austen27]

More amusingly, however, a hundred or so years ago and before, a large penis was considered the difference between man and beast. A large penis = barbarian. Never is there mention of small penis' equating as civility, simply that a well endowed individual was evidently short of table manners. Again, a postulation rooted by fear.

I understood that the under sized genitals of Classical statues were meant to represent the taming of physical lusts. Therefore a small penis was sometimes considered more civilized.

(BTW: Flashers are actually trying to solicit invitations to dinner by showing what good table manners they have.)

 

[ghostdog19]

(BTW: Flashers are actually trying to solicit invitations to dinner by showing what good table manners they have.)

Meat and two veg being a choice from the menu, naturally

 

[many_angled_one]

In the Old Testament he was a servant of god who was given leave to test people's faith. Satan was also a title I believe of the ancient Hebrew justice system where it meant "advesary". In the Hebrew justice system, the Judge acted to defend the accused Satan is the accuser I believe (dotn have access to look it up at the moment)

I suppose it really relfects the changing times, from a harsher one to a more civilisted richer one that left people with more time to think rather than being almost all tired to the land. Thinkign about faith, purity, what people do wrong, what angers God and why they do it etc. If you cant blame people for everything it must be some kind of outside influence making them do it.

Its hard to love somebody who is quite happy to incinerate you and your city a la old testament wrath style.

If god is all loving and forgiving then how can there be evil in the world, therefore its the devils work! But since god is all powerful and all knowing then he let it be that way (shh you devil worshiper you!)

Nothing unites a group of people like a common enemy and a common fear. Besides, the other way to look at it is that peoples fear of the supernatural, the unknown and previous monsters and nasties of the darkness gradually formed into Satan and his legions of demons.

It really is very complex with loads of issues all involved.

 

[Hospitaller]

we distance ourselves from the 'wrong-doers' in society all the while. All the better if you can give that 'wrong-doer' a name because that distances them from you even more. Arguably, this is born of fear, fear that said individual is a human being much like ourselves. But if they commit murder or an act we consider unnatural, then in desperation we de-humanize them from us... disassociate them from the human race if you like. It's (arguably) a fear that we're human also and therefore capable of the same.

Interesting. A guy I know did despicable things to his girlfriend and ended up in jail (quite deservedly). He also did some other nasty stuff on a few individuals. Anyway, that was a few years back and he is still referred to only as "the devil" and "the goat", never by name!

Satan was also a title I believe of the ancient Hebrew justice system where it meant "advesary". In the Hebrew justice system, the Judge acted to defend the accused Satan is the accuser I believe (don't have access to look it up at the moment)

I think you're right there - the word "satan" simply means "accuser" or "hater". I wonder what the etymology of "devil" is?

Its hard to love somebody who is quite happy to incinerate you and your city a la old testament wrath style.
If god is all loving and forgiving then how can there be evil in the world, therefore its the devils work! But since god is all powerful and all knowing then he let it be that way (shh you devil worshiper you!)

To the Jews who wrote the Tanakh, from whom we have the God of western European thinking (love him or loathe him), the rabbis in particular, life was all about trying to balance justice and mercy and these were seen as being perfectly balanced in God (although how exactly was the subject of much debate and I suppose is still). The nature of their God is quite different from what 21st century western person perceives to be "God". The common perception of what is meant by the word "God" (and indeed "love" for him for that matter) in the modern western imagination is not highly conducive to accommodating the God of the Jews of biblical times. Personally I don't dismiss ancient concepts simply because they are ancient (I think they call that "chronological snobbery"), whether it be the Jewish God or Herne the Hunter. I find ancient concepts enthralling because they force me to think beyond the mindset that I happen to have from living in a developed country in 21st century Europe at a particular point in the development of human culture & philosophy. They are easily dismissed if we take a linear/chronological approach to culture and philosophy, but I think that suspending our own view of reality to try to understand the concepts of others who occupied different points in space and time is an enriching and challenging process, and the idea of an Evil One is as good a subject as any!