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September Issue- Abominable 'No' Men

rickykemp

Gone But Not Forgotten
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i'm a long time reader of Fortean times, and i have always felt that the articles are all thoroughly researched and put forward with an unbiased, open minded standpoint which is very refreshing within modern journalism.

however, i feel that D. Hambling's approach to the said piece within the september issue was not in keeping with the Fortean Times' usual high quality of written content.

No, the world is not flat. No, HIV is a very real issue and no, evolution is deinitely up there as one of the best theories ever created in understanding how me may have come to be.

however, according to this article, i and many others are no better than someone who refutes scientific evidence which can be tested and replaces it with simple, reductionist protection mechanisms dreamt up by a so called father of psychology, which is ironic in itself.

Global Warming. What an intersting topic. Mainly because there is no scientific evidence to support it, but rather two camps of scientists who have little understanding of climate or how it does indeed change, and whether it is man made or natural.

Because i say to people, i would like to see evidence which refutes the current scientific studies which go against global warming (of which there are many, including a very current one).

The majority of informed Climate Change scientists from both sides of the fence have just come to the point where they have realised that computer models and predictions using previous figures are all inherantly flawed.

This Article highlights what i, and many others have suggested for a long time. that we know no where near enough to be making such predictions on climate.

i have no vested interest in climate change, i do not work for any of the oil suppliers, and i do not hold any strong seated religious or idealogical beliefs.

i do however find it hard to follow the ideas and theories of people blindly. to label people who do not feel the current suggestions on climate change being a real issue as in the same boat as holocaust deniers is massively disrespectful, and in invoking Godwin's law, this article should never have been allowed to leave the cutting room.

this has made me very reluctant to continue purchasing the magazine in the future.
 
I know where you're coming from, to an extent, and I share your view that if we believe we can predict the climate accurately, let alone change it, then we are naive in the extreme. However, we're clearly in the minority, you and I, and anyway, there's a whole big thread on climate change here on the FTMB, where we can rant to our hearts' content...

Back on your main topic, I wouldn't let one article spoil the magazine for you. OK, so it made you a bit angry. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Besides, FT has many authors, and few of them should be taken to represent an official editorial stance. If the rest of the magazine is enjoyable, then surely that's not too bad? Just make a note of the offending author's name, and see how often he crops up, and how often he makes your blod boil!
 
im actually getting to the point where i may have to remove the said article from the magazine and ritually shredding it.
 
Its laughable to think that we can quantify climate change when we can't even accurately predict next weeks weather.

I would offer that if someone who questions climate change detail is lumped in with 'holocaust deniers', then those who believe the apocalyptic predictions of adding one percent to the CO2 cycle without question, are, perhaps in the same boat as those who follow orders without question.

Mind you FT always has at least one piss poor article, being a vehicle for all sorts its inevitable.

Just breath deeply and look forward to next months. :D
 
I've just read the piece and quite enjoyed it, as a short, sketchy, rather grumpy, historical overview of various kinds of denial, in the face of overwhelming evidence.

It's obviously intended to be a bit polemical. However, I suspect the figure of, "96% of climatologists who believe the effects are occurring", is probably not too far from the truth. That doesn't seem at all like the picture rickykemp portrays.
rickykemp said:
...

Mainly because there is no scientific evidence to support it, but rather two camps of scientists who have little understanding of climate or how it does indeed change, and whether it is man made or natural.

Because i say to people, i would like to see evidence which refutes the current scientific studies which go against global warming (of which there are many, including a very current one).

The majority of informed Climate Change scientists from both sides of the fence have just come to the point where they have realised that computer models and predictions using previous figures are all inherantly flawed.

...
By all accounts, the ice is still melting. As two recent Guardian articles seem to show.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/sep/03/arctic-temperatures-climate-change
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/01/sermilik-fjord-greenland-global-warming

And an audio slide show.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/audioslideshow/2009/sep/02/10-10-climate-change-greenland

I'm not too sure where Hambling has got the idea that the FT is a potential, "breeding ground for dangerous heresies...", where the refutation of man made climate change is concerned. I may have missed a few anti-climate change articles.

Pity, that someone seems to have taken such a short and provocative piece quite so seriously, or so personally. It must have hit a raw nerve.
 
Quite, given that one of the most frequent gripes about the FT concerns a creeping blandness and an unwillingness to rock any boat whatsoever.

Still. as we've seen on here any number of times. whatever you say someone, somewhere will take exception to it.
 
Rickykemp,

We'd much rather that, rather than not reading FT, you either wrote a letter or pitched us a forum article setting out your disagreement with David Hambling and/or offering an alternative viewpoint. I don't personally think David's notion of 'dangerous heresies' was meant to discourage such responses to consensus/mainstream views, so - bring 'em on...

DS
 
i don't mean to come across as someone who will deny climate change is occurring; rather that i would like some actual evidence which refutes the fact that climate models are not accurate.

i just think that when anyone uses 1) Freud and 2) comparing people to holocaust deniers they are intentionally out to offend a particular group within the population.

it hit a nerve, yes, because i and many others are often ridiculed for questioning evidence, and as an intelligent human being, i take offense to those who blindly follow, and to compare us to anti-semites and people who can be placed into simple so called psychological categories.

I have a very extensive background in Sociological study, and the whole debate around climate change fascinates me, not because of the actual phenomenon of climate change, but rather that through clever and widespread media manipulation, people have been socialised into believing something without questioning it.
 
rickykemp said:
...

I have a very extensive background in Sociological study, and the whole debate around climate change fascinates me, not because of the actual phenomenon of climate change, but rather that through clever and widespread media manipulation, people have been socialised into believing something without questioning it.
There's a thing. Someone claiming a background in sociology, complaining about an example of Godwin's Law, who uses the 'sheeple' argument. :lol:

Could it be that all those allegedly manipulated people may actually be following the scientific arguments and it's the deniers who don't understand, but just blindly reject them, clutching at every alternative theoretical straw, hoping on every bent, or stretched, statistic?

:?
 
well we'll never know, will we?

which is what this article fails to point out with its blatant disregard for supporting a statement with scientific evidence.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Could it be that all those allegedly manipulated people may actually be following the scientific arguments and it's the deniers who don't understand, but just blindly reject them, clutching at every alternative theoretical straw, hoping on every bent, or stretched, statistic?
I suspect that most people, even the intelligent ones, believe what they want to believe (or what they think other people want them to believe), and aren't following the scientific argument at all. At best they base their knowledge of scientific subjects on headlines and hearsay - I'm not saying that everyone reaches the wrong conclusions that way, but it's a fairly hit-and-miss approach to the gathering of knowledge.
 
My copy hasn't completed its antipodeal journey yet, so I can't comment on the article as such. I do wish the mainstream media would stop getting two issues confused:
On average, is the temperature rising at a rate that cannot be explained by non anthropogenic factors such as sunspots, rotational wobbles etc. The answer is yes. No need for models that may or may not accurately predict how much more it will do so. This is completely different to the media screaming GLOBAL WARMING CATASTROPHE every time we have a hot day, big storm or bushfire. Single events cannot be directly ascribed to global warming, and only give the deniers ammunition when there is a cold snap etc.
 
Rickykemp - The article doesn't say that climate change is happening, it's just looking at the way that you always get groups who go against he mainstream view and how that works.

It's easy to airily say that of course the world isn't flat...but proponents of the flat earth view had perfectly good scientific evidence which no scientist wanted to discuss because they#'d already made up their minds, But of course some non-scientists were happy to consider it.

It's more about science and perceptions, though of course the climate change issue gives it an edge of relevance.
 
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