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Signs Of Madness

Some Fortean phenomena are so banal that believing in them is probably a sign of madness

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bosskR

Thunder Lyger
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Messages
233
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
While some Fortean phenomena are genuinely interesting, do you agree that others are so banal, unsupported by evidence, etc, that when someone believes in them it’s probably a sign of madness?

My candidates, top of my head:

• crop circles
• hollow earth
• orbs
• rods
• coincidences aren’t coincidences
• Google Earth glitches
• specific end-of-world prophecies
• reptilians à la Icke
• blobsquatches à la Beckjord

(Please don’t split hairs, I know crop circles for instance ”are real” but of course I’m talking about the belief that they’re paranormal.)

Edit: Poll added out of a sense of completeness and mischief. P_M
 
• Hair growing in the palms of one's hands
• Eyebrows knitted too close together.
• Clear signs of the Devil's mark: a mole, or supernumerary nipple, insensitive to pain, though pricked by a bodkin blessed by a priest
• Waterboarding, until a confession is extracted.
• And etc.
 
bosskR said:
While some Fortean phenomena are genuinely interesting, do you agree that others are so banal, unsupported by evidence, etc, that when someone believes in them it’s probably a sign of madness?
Not necessarily madness, but in quite a lot of cases obsessiveness, or just plain fluffy woo-woo-ism. People who want/need to believe, and so will attribute absolutely any occurrence to a paranormal source despite in many cases lacking any evidence whatsoever. Which is not to say that the phenomenon itself doesn't exist, merely that it's not the true origin of all instances attributed to it.

This, I think, goes for most Fort stuff - 90+% of UFO, ghost and cryptid sightings probably have a mundane source, but the remaining 10% are what interest us. The woo tendency will immediately dub every light in the sky as a UFO and every creak in an old house as a restless spirit - the skeptics will with equal aplomb dub every light in the sky as a plane/satellite/Venus and all creaks as being a by-product of being in an old house.

As ever, we're somewhere in the middle.

As for your list, I'd leave out rods. There's something actually going on there, IMHO.
 
I have known three "mad" people, i.e. people with diagnosable medical disorders which at times unfit them for life outside an institution, well; two of them I have given house room to during difficult periods. I have worked in a building on a corner with a resident homeless man who talked to ghosts. I was in an intimate relationship with an individual who I now believe, based on his behavior during and after the relationship, to be diagnosable, though he never lost his capacity to function at a socially acceptable level. And I know a lot of functional people - myself included - whose behavior patterns fit into clear diagnostic categories, but are not extreme enough to call madness.

Madness is not a function of belief. We all believe a combination of what we are raised to believe, what is convenient to believe, and what seems to us to present convincing evidence. Since we process evidence differently and have different experiences informing our notions of how the world works, most of us believe something that appears nonsensical to the person next to us. Objective truth is not obtainable, due to the limitations of our sensory and interpretive apparatus. We process things subjectively and do the best we can, which, most of the time, is good enough.

Madness occurs when your experience of the world diverges so far from objective reality that it interferes with your ability to cope; when you start to experience yourself as a metaphor, talk to ghosts in preference to talking with flesh-and-blood humans, cannot distinguish between yourself and the exterior world. It can manifest through your belief system, but many people with exactly similar belief systems will do just fine.

Madness frequently is not an intellectual problem at all, but an emotional one. Depression and high intelligence often go together, and a self-aware, intelligent "crazy person" (two out of my three cases cited above) can learn techniques to keep functioning in circumstances that would turn most people into a quivering wreck. Many people, in fact, derive psychological benefit from irrational beliefs, though these beliefs also make them vulnerable to exploitation.

The belief that a neat, tidy generalization will cover all cases, for example, is as irrational, and as demonstrably wrong, as anything in Beckjord. Yet people make these generalizations and stick to them, sometimes to the detriment of themselves and society, without crossing the line into madness.

90% of everything is crap. So?
 
... so, learn to recognise what may very well be crap.

Works for me :).
 
How d'you mean banal?
Seems an inappropriate term to me, for phenomena like Sasquatch or reptilians.

Minor superstitions are banal and nobody's taking a stand on them.
 
escargot1 said:
How d'you mean banal?
Seems an inappropriate term to me, for phenomena like Sasquatch or reptilians.
Not for sasquatches, definitely, but "blobsquatches" are quite uniquely Beckjordian (though again banal doesn't do it justice.) Whether or not Beckjord is mad is open to debate.*

I don't dismiss reptilians altogether, either, I just sincerely doubt they hold the supreme.. erm.. importance that Icke affords them. Whether or not Icke is mad is open to debate.**

Perhaps, rather than "banal", how about "glib"? "Credulous", even?

Nonetheless, I think I can see where you're coming from, bosskR. Some phenomena do stretch the old credibility rather more than others.

essy also said:
Minor superstitions are banal and nobody's taking a stand on them.
That said, how many instinctively observe them anyway? Not walking under ladders, etc etc, and not entirely consciously. Stuff like this can be quite deep-rooted.

*Yes.

**Also yes.
 
escargot1 said:
How d'you mean banal?
Well, my English is not very good. I’m from Sweden.

I don’t mean all my examples are ”banal”, but for example crop circles, where people are so open about making them and how (but true-believers have been then known to argue that the makers are controlled by aliens, to salvage a paranormal angle).
 
Why has no one metioned the bible? you have to be really credulous to believe those stories.
 
bosskR said:
I don’t mean all my examples are ”banal”, but for example crop circles, where people are so open about making them and how (but true-believers have been then known to argue that the makers are controlled by aliens, to salvage a paranormal angle).
Some people have claimed to have made them, true.

But there are many reports of large and highly complex designs appearing within very short time windows, when it seems almost impossible that a human team could have carried out the work in the time available.

Now I'm no fluffy woo-woo, but I don't see how such designs could have been created by a couple of blokes with planks, after the pubs have closed!

The teamwork needed to create these designs in the time available seems to call for military planning and attention to detail.

So maybe they're the result of SAS training exercises!
 
Yes, as I was saying, there are cases in most of the cited list that have genuine anomalous aspects to them - however in the majority of cases a mundane explanation is not only available, it's far more likely. Which is not to say that the phenomenon itself is therefore entirely bogus (which nonetheless is the Randi mindset: "I can replicate it this way, therefore this way is how it always happens.")

Wasn't there a crop circle that appeared in the midst of a full-scale, live-fire military exercise on Salisbury Plain? Two blokes and a plank doesn't seem quite so likely there, for a start...
 
Not too happy about your including specific end of the word prophecies.

I am convinced that some individuals in certain circumstances can accurately predict future events. To my mind this is the Fortean phenomenon par excellence crying out for a proper scientific investigation/explanation.

So some of the specific world-end prophecies might turn out to be true. Trouble is there'll be no one around to know.
 
it's fair to say though, that historically there's been an uncountable number of end of the world prophecies, none of which turned out to be true... but i guess if they go on predicting them long enough, they'll get it right in the end, if not because of any prophetic powers...
 
Ronson8 said:
Why has no one metioned the bible? you have to be really credulous to believe those stories.

Why do people always pick on The Bible, what about The Quraan?

Ridicule that.
 
tony_carson said:
Ronson8 said:
Why has no one metioned the bible? you have to be really credulous to believe those stories.

Why do people always pick on The Bible, what about The Quraan?

Ridicule that.
Why is that sort of thing always somebody else's job?
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
tony_carson said:
Ronson8 said:
Why has no one metioned the bible? you have to be really credulous to believe those stories.

Why do people always pick on The Bible, what about The Quraan?

Ridicule that.
Why is that sort of thing always somebody else's job?

Don't know Pietro, but I don't ever seem to recall anyone doing it.

Still, I can give it a go if you like..

btw, love your avatar - one of my favorite flicks!
 
Giving other holy books equal ridicule time with the Bible may be appropriate in a different thread, but neither book is really relevant to the OP, which posits that some phenomena might be so mundane that anyone who believes in a supernatural interpretation of them must not be firing on all cylinders. The Bible and the Koran have massive organized belief engines working full time in society and, irrational as organized religion may seem to some of us, it can hardly be considered diagnostic of insanity except by a code so strict it could qualify as insane itself.

(I think the reason most people on this board pick on the Bible rather than the Koran is that most board members live in portions of Western society where the Judeo-Christian tradition is most prominent; therefore, it is simultaneously more familiar to posters, and more likely to be cited in support of beliefs, actions, or principles which posters find ridiculous, than other religious works.)

Specific manifestations of religious belief, such as interpreting an image in a tortilla as the miraculous likeness of the Virgin Mary/Jesus/Allah/the Flying Spaghetti Monster, might well fall within the original brief, however. I think myself that such overinterpretation of simulacra indicates an eagerness for miracles combined with an underdeveloped or underutilized understanding of how the mind reads images, both of which could exacerbate insanity but neither of which is an indication of it.
 
Pilot 'breakdown' diverts flight

An Air Canada flight made an emergency landing in Ireland after a pilot apparently suffered a mental breakdown.
A passenger said the pilot was carried from the plane shouting and swearing, saying he wanted to talk "to God".

The flight from Toronto to Heathrow landed at Shannon airport after its crew declared a medical emergency. Passengers flew on to London later.

Air Canada has confirmed that a crew member was unwell, but did not confirm he was suffering mental problems.

"At no time were the safety of the passengers or crew in question," said an Air Canada spokesman.

"The flight was met by medical personnel and the individual is now in care."

Eight-hour delay

One of the passengers, Sean Finucane, said he saw the co-pilot being carried into the cabin in restraints.

"He was very, very distraught. He was yelling loudly at times," he told the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

"He was swearing and asking for God and very distressed. He basically said he wanted to talk to God."

Passengers were put up in hotels while another crew was found. They eventually arrived in London eight hours late.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7217977.stm
 
The phenomena I find worthy of serious research, and there are at least two or three on the OP's list, are certainly not banal. If they were I obviously wouldn't bother to research them. Q.E.D.
 
PeniG said:
....a self-aware, intelligent "crazy person"....can learn techniques to keep functioning in circumstances that would turn most people into a quivering wreck.

It's been widely reported that the great 1930s swing/jazz bandleader and (genius) bassist John Kirby didn't see 300 dancing couples when he looked out from the bandstand but 600 writhing snakes.

He was asked by one of his own sidemen if he was bothered by this.

"No, not at all," Kirby responded. "Snakes' money's green. And they like my music."
 
plusk said:
So some of the specific world-end prophecies might turn out to be true.
Yeah, four or five different ones ;)
 
Page 2 and nobody has pointed out the first sign of Madness is Suggs coming up your driveway?
;)
 
Depends if the washing machine's on the blink...
 
I'd have thought the first sign would be a booming announcement, and an up-tempo brass introduction. Then all of them marching up in line.
 
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