Son Of Sam (David Berkowitz; Conspiracy?; Cult?)
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When did anyone do that?
AlchoPwn
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I have been looking into the cult that is supposedly linked to all of the Son of Sam/Zodiac Killer/Manson Family; namely the Process Church. For those who want some baseline info on the organization here are links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Process_Church_of_The_Final_Judgment
Now I have yet to read Maury Terry's book The Ultimate Evil but I plan to. It is concerning that it was published during 1987 when the Satanic Panic (i.e. those bastard psychologists implanting false memories of abuse) was at its height. On the other hand, the prima facie evidence that Charles Manson had connections to the Process Church seem credible. I don't think the connections between the Son of Sam and Zodiac and the Process seem as credible as the Manson connection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Process_Church_of_The_Final_Judgment
Now I have yet to read Maury Terry's book The Ultimate Evil but I plan to. It is concerning that it was published during 1987 when the Satanic Panic (i.e. those bastard psychologists implanting false memories of abuse) was at its height. On the other hand, the prima facie evidence that Charles Manson had connections to the Process Church seem credible. I don't think the connections between the Son of Sam and Zodiac and the Process seem as credible as the Manson connection.
Gambeir
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Depends on a number of ifs. For example, if the idea here is that there's truth in Berkowitz being associated with cults, satanic or otherwise, then wouldn't you logically expect to find curious items crossing in this way?
This is just a curiosity I'm sure but is this Universe Winking or what?
Elwood Dowd is the main character in the film Harvey
Remember the anagram for Elwood is dewool; to remove the wool.
Inspector Timothy Dowd of the Omega Task Force
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/...ve-who-led-son-of-sam-manhunt-dies-at-99.html
Completely unrelated I'm sure. Still the arm patch is an Owl.
Another case where Universe is winking at us?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Special_Task_Force
"Denaro's recollection is that he physically bumped into Berkowitz outside the Wine Gallery restaurant as he and Keenan departed and walked to his car where the shooting occurred; Berkowitz, in contrast, told police that he passed within a few feet of Denaro and Keenan shortly before they entered the car. Denaro contends he and Keenan passed no one on their way to the car and further that the placement of the car parked at the curb would have made it impossible for Berkowitz to have sneaked up on them in the few minutes between their encounter outside restaurant and the shooting at the car. Denaro thus reasons he was shot by someone other than Berkowitz."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz
Berkowitz story of cultists doesn't quite ring true with me even if he himself is actually telling the truth about what he knows and about belonging to a cult, a cult which he seems to have little knowledge about, with mysterious people showing up and participating in murders.
Let's say for the sake of argument that there was some group Berkowitz was associating with. Just because he thinks they are some satanic group wouldn't mean that they were. Remember this was 1976. Jimmy Carter was President. America is asleep like usual everywhere except New York where a nut job is running lose shooting people.
Berkowitz was taken into custody on the night of August 10, 1977, mug shots are taken on August 11, 1977. He terrorized the city during the summer of 1976. He killed six people and wounded seven others by July 1977.
Someone else might do some more digging but I went an looked for things that made news in New York in the summer of 1976. I found that on September 11th, 1976 Officer Brian J. Murray was killed while attempting to deactivate a bomb placed at Grand Central Station in New York City.
https://www.odmp.org/officer/9805-police-officer-brian-j-murray
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-yor...ment-kill-september-11-1976-article-1.1156342
Zvonko Busic was a Croatian supposedly leading a fight to free Croatia from Communist Yogoslavia.
"Croatian independence fighters hijacked T.W.A. Flight 355 shortly after it left La Guardia Airport. They said they had five bombs on board the jetliner and had planted a sixth in a locker at Grand Central Terminal. There were no bombs on the plane, a Boeing 727, but there was indeed a bomb at Grand Central, and when New York City police officers went to defuse it, it exploded, killing one officer, Brian J. Murray, and blinding another in one eye."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/19/nyregion/19parole.html
5 makes a conspiracy.
SEPT. 5, 2013. Croatian News reported that Mr. Busic had shot himself. His American-born wife, Julienne Eden Busic, found the body and a suicide note, the reports said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/world/europe/zvonko-busic-67-croatian-hijacker-dies.html
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Gambeir
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You did when you wrote, "the eternal predaciousness of human nature."
Maybe I should amend that to say this is how I took your statement. Evidently this wasn't you intention.
Look I got to go to bed....but lets maybe think instead about the conspiracy aspect of this case. Maybe do some digging and see what photos we can come up with on the Croatian Hijacking bombers and see if any of those look like any of the composite drawings. I'm thinking that if there is a connection then possibly these idiots were involved. Almost seems logical in light of everything else they did.
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No mention of evil there. However, you are correct in assuming I didn't mean this to be a good thing. Predaciousness is inherently not a good thing, from the point of view of the prey. And that is what is contained in the book (and film). Some characters are predacious and some are prey.
Forgive me if I bow out of that line of thinking and leave it up to you. You lost me at "8 letter Anagram for Berkowitz is Reitboks", if not before.
maximus otter
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I mention Bletchley Park solely because it shows that large numbers of motivated people can keep secrets for a long time.
I did not know that Cairncross had leaked Ultra info to the Russians, but it doesn't affect my central idea: At least 10,000 people knew about Ultra, yet only one allegedly leaked its intercepts. It was kept secret for almost 30 years. A pretty good result.
I've read Simon Singh's excellent The Code Book: The Secret History of Codes and Code-breaking (highly recommended, BTW), and I've just skim-read a few pages on the Germans' uprating of Enigma, and I don't believe it was due to suspicions that Enigma had been compromised by the Russians or anyone else. I think that blessedly their blind faith in Enigma's invulnerability to cryptanalysis was sustained until the end.
maximus otter
ramonmercado
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There's certainly a lot of info to take in from that post!
This discussion would be more at home in the thread about how conspiracies are prone to unravel, but it is interesting to make and additiona remark : a conspiracy is revealed when the public is made aware of its existence, not when spies learn of it and report it to their government...
In the case of Blechtley and research on the Enigma code, it definitely doesn't qualify as an instance of a conspiracy exposed, as indeed only a secret agency of a foreign countries was informed of its existence by a spy, the public being kept in the dark for decades. Moreover, I read that British intelligence was aware of Cainrcross's double agent acts, and they could easily have neutralized him (they had allowed him to keep operating because he was useful as a medium to feed Soviets with junk information). Relating to the matter of what was fed to Germans, every source I read stated that until the end, they had no knowledge that Enigma had been deciphered, event when they were presented with hints tant could suggest that it was the case. I am not even sure that they had been aware of the successes of the Polish team before the war. In any case, teh Soviets also kept their mouth shut, despite that probably a large number of them in intelligence circles had been made aware of the Blechtley works.
Now, one could answer that this may not be true and that perhaps German intelligence knew. But if so, it would really be an instance of a secret kept for six decades !
Gambeir
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Sorry about the delayed response; was trying to get back late last night when the internet went down so I bagged it.
It's been 41 years so that's not what I'd call prone to unravel. The only evidence implying that there's a time limit which defines whether or not a conspiracy exists are the ones which have unraveled. At any rate, the idea is to show that there is a potential that a foreign group may have been involved.
The United States is a huge target because of it's involvement with global politics. A consequence of the last Global War was the redefining in the American Psyche of our role in global affairs. One could argue with good effect that the bombing of Pearl Harbor was engineered specifically as a kind of exclamation point designed to force Americans in to global politics. This was something President George Washington had warned America about. I believe it's in his farewell address to the nation. He specifically urges Americans to steer clear of foreign involvement and the old world.
Now people like the ones involved in the hijacking and bombing could be unaware of their own involvement in a clandestine operation with another agenda. Good examples can found in the book; "Red Horizons: The true story of Nicola and Elena Ceausescus' Crimes. by Ion Mihai Pacepa."
All kinds of groups are created all the time. There's new ones coming along all the time. These groups are formed with backing from a variety of sources with the specific agenda of attracting the interest of specific types of people. A lot of this is politically oriented, like Antifa for example is manifestly such an organization. There's an agenda behind that group which the idiots involved with are completely oblivious about because there's no way that 99% of them would be associated with that organization if they honestly understood what the objective really was.
So anyways, this flat fat fish Berkowitz, whose probably already a wack job for whatever reason, finds his way to some others, and unlike virtually everyone else he's ever been near they don't run away, but rather take him in. I mean, just look at the poor guy, he's got "Mark" written across his forehead. This was probably equally true of the Carr brothers, and I wouldn't be surprised if their somewhat mysterious deaths was payback for killing an NYPD Officer, since Berkowitz alleges that one NYPD Officer was involved. This probably being an infiltration of this group in response to an assistance request by another agency. So possibly the NYPD was hip to the statanic group and had infiltrated that group, but they didn't connect up the Son of Sam shootings with the Carr Brothers until after the fact, and possibly there's a link between the Carr Brothers and the Croatians.
Looking at the possibility of others being involved in the Son of Sam Murders, I would conclude that there are two possibilities that stand out. One is a foreign group which was extracting some kind of revenge. This is the Croatian Group. Maybe there's some letter locked away with a statement from this group that went to some official alphabet agency and it's still sitting around. Frankly I'd be surprised if there were not, and maybe such a letter, which is the kind received constantly, simply was put with all the others and no one connected up the letter with the subsequent violence. Or...maybe they did connect it up.
See, one wouldn't expect that a foreign group would conduct some kind of violent operation and then hide behind the idea of a lone gunman, but maybe in their minds the FBI knew they were the ones doing it. So ya see there could be an explanation, and maybe even evidence proving this link, just that it's never been put together, either back then or now. Who knows but that maybe somewhere's there's a record from this Croatian group that precedes the shooting making threats? It's possible the whole connection could have been over-looked, or buried, and certainly these people wouldn't be claiming responsibility after the fact. That would have been a death sentence for sure. As it was these Croatians claimed the bomb at Grand Central Station wasn't intended to harm anyone.
Now the Geopoltics of this are mind bending really. Here we have some fanatics who want to draw attention to their cause for independence, and like the idiots they are, they think violence will be the ticket. Bombings, hijackings, and ???? Shootings in the streets? Is that so far fetched?
Now on the other hand there's this other nation which they blame for everything and think by some twisted logic that if they do these things then it will force America and Americans to pay attention to their oppressors, which was Yugoslavia. However, lets face it, these people had no idea who they were dealing with in the form of Yugoslavia's leader. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito
Obviously the Croatians would be known to the intelligence agencies of the communists. I mean these Croatians were so far out of their league it was like children trying to outwit the devil. So ya see the whole thing is set to back fire on the Croatians from the get go, not only because their logic is imbecilic, what with using bombs and hijackings, and probably randomly shooting people in the streets of New York, but because the final plan was to link them and all their other crimes back to the Son of Sam shootings. This would then have tossed a big monkey wrench into the geopolitical state of the cold war.
Remember here, the Communists are the enemy, we can't have the enemy solving a mass murder shooting spree, a bombing and hijacking and then have that linked back to some groups which may have been receiving sympathetic views from official policy. Not only would that reflect badly but we needed the communists for economic reasons. I don't know if the Croatians were receiving sympathetic political considerations or not, but I'm quite sure the Evil Empire which Yugoslavia was a member of wasn't.
Berkowitz is arrested on August 10th 1976 and the Croatians did their bombing and hijacking on September 11th of 1976. Doesn't this now begin to look a desperate attempt to make a statement while fleeing the general area? It's a little suspicious timing wise I think. Like maybe they sense or know someone or something is closing in on them. After all, if Berkowitz is in custody, as he was, then they have no idea what he is telling the cops, and so they decide to go all out with a bombing and hijacking while fleeing New York City. Free of charge mind you.
The two brothers Berkowitz mentions being Satanists are John Carr, who had been killed by a shooting judged a suicide in North Dakota during 1978, and Michael Carr who had been in a fatal car accident in 1979. If they were involved and did commit any the other murders there was no way to interview them any longer.
Berkowitz claimed that the actual perpetrator of the DeMasi–Lomino shooting was John Carr, and that Michael Carr fired the shots at Lupo and Placido. Berkowitz also claimed an unknown female cult member fired on Denaro and Keenan, both of whom survived. He further claimed this female couldn't handle or was familiar with the powerful recoil of the Charter Arms 44 special. That's something easy to believe because this was an alloy frame weapon with a powerful kick.
Berkowitz also claimed that a Yonkers police officer was a cult member and was involved in the DeMasi–Lomino shooting he says was done by John Carr. Who was this officer?
Here's another curiosity, the New York Post ran a story on the slain police officer killed by the Croatian bomber/hijackers this last September 28, 2017. Frankly this is pretty obscure stuff being 41 years later.
https://nypost.com/2017/09/28/the-true-story-of-a-cops-forgotten-911-death-from-1976/
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maximus otter
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“Killer tries to exculpate himself by laying off all or part of guilt onto someone who is - conveniently - unavailable.” lf it isn’t the oldest scam in the book it’s in the top three.
It was tried in the last few days by the nutter who rammed the Muslims in Finsbury Park:
“Darren Osborne returned to the stand on Wednesday morning, telling the jury the deadly attack was carried out by a man called Dave, who was not seen by witnesses or recorded on CCTV.
“He’s like Dynamo, he’s an illusion, an illusionist, he can make himself vanish perhaps, I don't know,” he told the jury.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-corbyn-witness-box-terry-dave-a8186611.html
maximus otter
It was tried in the last few days by the nutter who rammed the Muslims in Finsbury Park:
“Darren Osborne returned to the stand on Wednesday morning, telling the jury the deadly attack was carried out by a man called Dave, who was not seen by witnesses or recorded on CCTV.
“He’s like Dynamo, he’s an illusion, an illusionist, he can make himself vanish perhaps, I don't know,” he told the jury.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-corbyn-witness-box-terry-dave-a8186611.html
maximus otter
AlchoPwn
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On the contrary, a conspiracy is revealed whenever a hostile political entity gains actionable knowledge of it, not when the public at large becomes aware of it. Is a conspiracy ended when special forces breaks down the door and arrests everyone or when the public become aware of it? The former I think, for I am practically inclined.
On the contrary. A hostile foreign power had actionable intelligence of what was going on. While the Germans apparently lacked the knowledge to bomb Bletchley Park, the Russians definitely knew enough, they simply lacked the motive and the means to act.
There were other factors at work in German intelligence. They didn't consider Soviet-provided intelligence as reliable, even during the period of detente during the German rearmament and Molotov Ribbentrop Pact era. There was also the issue of the enigma machines being a sizeable capital investment that made the costs of upgrading unpalatable. In the face of ongoing military success, the Germans were unwilling to consider the possibility that reports of their codes being compromised could be true. So it was less about the Germans not knowing, and more about them choosing not to listen in light of a lack of supporting evidence. All things considered, that seems like a sensible response, even if it was incorrect.
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cycleboy2
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That was another one where the jury made the tea, elected a foreperson, voted guilty, drank their tea, ate their biscuits (a pound a week in the Bristol courts last year), took a few minutes to make it to an hour and deliver the verdict. Job done. It was the worst, flimsiest, most unbelievable defences I've ever heard. I guess (hope) his barrister told him not to go with that story, as nobody in their right mind would believe it. I hadn't read of that Dynamo comment - that's genius! And he got a 'proper' sentence - no right to parole until he's 91!
Gambeir
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I hope you don't think I disagree with you.
If I were to be interviewing Berkowitz I would assume he's a pathological liar, but as a real investigator you don't just dismiss the claims. What you do is form a workable hypothesis based on the claim. Now of course normally these claims are pretty easily blown-up early on while interviewing the suspect.
Normally if the suspects story holds water then you have some work to do. In Berkowitz's case there was enough evidence to convict without having to deal with the secondary story. This the story we have but there's another story, a cold war story of murder, deception, retribution, and justice?
Also the killings stopped right? Obviously they got their man? Well they certainly got one of the killers, and if there were more where were they then? Why did the killings stop if, as Berkowitz claims, there were more people involved?
The problem in dismissing this story is how it dovetails with other events, and which statistically would be improbable to have happen all at the same time. That's a major red flag. Did you know that on September 10th 1976, the same day that Berkowitz is arrested that this also happened? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Zagreb_mid-air_collision
Seems like it's unrelated huh? May make more sense to you if you let it sit for a while.
It might speak to you later on somewhere's down the road.
Parts that fit Berkowitz's version include five unidentifed person, one of whom was an unknown female gunwomen.
The unknown female gunwomen could have been Julie Busic, the American wife of Zvonko Busic. The Five could have been Slobodan Vlasic, Zvonko Busic, Petar Matanic, Frane Pesut, and Julienne Busic.
Berkowitz's story say's that there were two other unidentified gunmen in two separate shootings.
Berkowitz declared that "at least five" cult members were at the scene of the Freund–Diel shooting.
Wikipedia has the names for only four of the hijackers: Zvonko and his wife, Julienne, along with Petar Matanić and Frane Pešut. However there were Five Hijackers.
The hijackers were Slobodan Vlasic, Zvonko Busic, Petar Matanic, Frane Pesut, and Julienne Busic.
https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Slobodan Vlašić&item_type=topic
The linked image below shows Five in handcuffs.
http://cro-eu.com/galerija-fotografija/albums/userpics/10001/Zvonko Busic-3.jpg
Zvonko Busic was may also have been involved in the 1975 bombing at LaGuardia Airport that killed 11.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_LaGuardia_Airport_bombing
The others in the group had already been free for at least 17 years when Zvonko Busic was denied parole after having served 30 years in 2006. Julienne Bušić had been released in 1989.
What of the Carr Brothers? Good question, can't find a thing on them, you know the old saying: Like Father, Like Son?
https://historyofrights.ca/encyclopaedia/biographies/sam-carr/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Carr
OK, so this is my take on the Berkowitz Story; making the assumption it's true of course.
The Carr brothers are communist agents. They linked up with the Zvonko group of Croatian's whom they knew had already done the 1975 bombing at LaGuardia that killed 11 people. The Carr Brothers claim to be Croatian's themselves. Under their guidance they construct this notion of creating a Satanic Cult to attract a "Mark". This turns out to be the mental defective David Berkowitz. The other players, Zvonko and his associates have to participate in order to convince Berkowitz this is a real satanic cult. This explains the 5 unknown/unidentified people in his story, one of whom he called Manson, becaused evidently he resembled Manson: Zvonko did resemble Charles Manson.
When Berkowitz is arrested the group holds a meeting and decides it's time to make a bigger statement and to then get of dodge. They decide to place a bomb at Grand Central in New York and then to hijack an airliner to escape the US. The Carr brothers do the task of placing the bomb and staying behind saying they will continue the fight, or whatever, and this is the bomb that later kills NYPD Officer Brian Murray.
Zvonko claims that they left instructions on how to disarm the bomb saying they didn't want to harm anyone. Indeed the description of the bomb team is that they took this pressure cooker which supposedly had a bomb inside and followed the instructions, cutting the supposed detonator wires. Only when the went up to finish dismantling the bomb is when it went off. This indicates that the bomb may have been remotely detonated by radio control but there's no mention of this in the official records.
Once the five are arrested they, of course, never mention the Carr Brothers because these are fellow Croatians. They have no idea that the brothers were Communist agents setting them up. The Zvonko group was eliminated as threats to the Yugoslav's as they were all arrested in Paris where the hijacked airliner finally landed. All were deported back to the US where they were imprisoned. Only the Carr Brothers were wandering about's, but what about the Yonkers Policeman who was also a cult member? Where'd he go huh? He like vanishes in the story.
Now If you think that the odds of two people fingered as conspirators who's last name happens to be Carr, and whom are tied to this case by accusation, and one of whom later end up with a bullet in the head and the other dead behind the wheel is mere coincidence, then please do not try your hand with painting by the numbers.
I think it's pretty obvious these things are all interconnected. The Carr brothers were assassinated obviously for the murder of Officer Murray, for the shootings, for the hijackings, and for other reasons we can only guess at. They finally went a bridge too far and paid the ultimate price for that mistake.
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AlchoPwn
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You have made one extremely fundamental error here. The Croatians were never Communists and weren't in league with Tito at any stage. The Croatians were an independence movement opposed to Tito and Yugoslavia. This is all linked back to the Ustache, who were the Fascist secret police of Croatia after Nazi occupation gave Croatia a form of client state independence. The Ustache were "early adopters" of the "ethnic cleansing" doctrine practices in the 1990s war in the Balkans, and set upon a fairly defenseless Serbian and minority communities with the intention of genocide. It seems to be a regional pastime. Here is the wiki page that covers some of the background:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustaše
The Croatians actively hated Communism, and their attacks in the USA were all made with an agenda to terrorize the state of Yugoslavia, Yugoslavian Americans of the various ethnic groups (including Croats who weren't actively supporting them enough). In the case of the 1976 Grand Central Station Bombing in order to prove they had explosives that they subsequently used in the hijacking of TWA Fl. 355 to Zagreb.
In fact there were a hell of a lot of terrorist bombings in 1975-76. Have a peek:
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=MgM1s1Kk0GwC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Grand Central Station bombing 1976 purpose?&source=bl&ots=VCrCwdt4T2&sig=fMPbSZnTKctGTu7lDQDxAytwkIo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9sL7qrY7ZAhVIybwKHUuAApM4ChDoAQgoMAA#v=onepage&q=Grand Central Station bombing 1976 purpose?&f=false
The notion of singling out the Croatians when they were just late adopters of a trendy new national terrorism hobby seems a little implausible. On the other hand the Croats are rabid Roman Catholics; their ethnic identity hinges upon that single point to the exclusion of all reason (they are otherwise culturally identical to Serbs) in a classic example of the narcissism of small differences...
And every good protestant knows that the Pope is the anti-christ, right? :exor::fnord:
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On my part, I definitely say the latter. That law-enforcing bodies with the need to know have the knowledge of a state conspiracy doesn't even necessarily imply that they will come to arrest the culprits – especially if it relates to a matter of secret services, where the rule are that the population is kept in the dark, and that police bodies are prevented to do their job (and more prosaically, that the perpetrators can secure their impunity).
That no secret service gained any knowledge is a requirement that anti-conspiracists added, to ensure that a number of successful conspiracies, like the Manhattan Project (which deceived both the press and the local population until the first atomic bomb was dropped) or the US equivalent to Blechtley Park, nicknamed Operation Magic.
There are many cases where foreign, even hostile, governments may have knowledge and even deep understanding of a manipulation of a state against ist population, or even against themselves, but the public remain in the dark. Probably more than we know, which is the reason why they are still considered as conspiracy theories. In fact, the existence of such situations only add successful conspiracies, as the foreign countries involved managed to keep their own knowledge hidden.
Probably because when they gained the intelligence, they were not hostile anymore... Besides, the said intelligence was only indirect. It is important to note that it seems that Cairncross never informed the Soviets that the Enigma code had been broken, or any other German code. He only gave them documents, notably the German plans for the attack on Kursk, that allowed them to deduce that the British had learned how to read German encryptions (which involved in this case not the Enigma machine code, but the Lorenz - Tunny - machine code used by the Army). In fact, they long doubted the veracity of the informations he provided them (indeed, security around Cairncross was uncanilly weak, which explained why Soviet intelligence doubted that he could be authorized to handle such sensitive material, which may have sparkled speculations that he was used as an unwitting double agent). But the work of the code-breakers itself remained leakproof, no detail being made available to unwelcome foreign intelligence as well as to the public.
The way German intelligence reacted was an example of cognitive dissonance, an instance of how even in a case of evidence being available, one may refuse to take it into account. But the most important fact is that there were no leaks from the people involved in the conspiracy to the target of the said conspiracy.
End of off-topic for me.
AlchoPwn
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I accept what you have said here. It is all-important for a conspiracy to secure their impunity (nicely put btw). I will bet there are even secrets that stay hidden, after all, it is a matter of probability, and that always allows for outliers in the data set.
The point is, I think that if an enemy secret service knows about the hypothetical conspiracy then the conspiracy is "known". I mean, seriously, if active enemies know about a conspiracy, how much worse can it be? After all, who is more likely to wipe the conspiracy out? The general public or a secret service with a vested interest in killing the conspiracy? I am betting the latter. Also, the Nazis knew what an atomic weapon could do theoretically even before the war, and the Soviets had famously infiltrated the Manhattan Project so they were totally in the loop. Operation Magic seems to have been more secure, probably because the Soviets favored person-to-person espionage.
Agreed. While I am sure that the Nazis and Soviets both knew about Bletchley Park's existence, neither made an active effort to infiltrate it. Apparently Germany did bomb Bletchley Park but hit nothing important.
It may well have been arrogance that prompted their lack of response, or they may have been fed disinformation about the success of their bombing raid? IDK. The various Germani intelligence services weren't very successful against Britain.
Gambeir
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First of all, sorry for the sloooowww reply. I got a few other demands going on.
So yea, I see what you're saying. Yes, you have it right. The Croatians were active against the Communists.
I needed to make it more clear how the double cross worked with the Carr brothers as communist agents working inside the Croatian team.
In my hypothesis the Carr Brothers are communist agents: They merely pretended to be sympathetic to the Croatians.
They were double agents. They placed the bomb which they also detonated remotely that killed the young NYPD Officer. The Croatian leader had left instructions on how to disarm the bomb. He said he only wanted to make a statement, that he didn't actually want anyone harmed. The police actually removed the bomb from grand central and took it to another location for disarming. The report says that they actually followed the instructions and cut the wires that should have cut the power to the detonator. Evidently everything appeared to be fine when this was done. I presume by some remote method of cable cutting, and it was only afterwards when they bomb squad actually went to finish dismantling the bomb that it detonated.
That tell's me the bomb was either detonated remotely or the design had been changed so that it would explode even after following the instructions of the Croatians. See, as communist double agents, working for the communists, the Carr Brothers intended that by murdering the police officer the policy of the US Government would change from being sympathetic to being against the Croatians.
You see how that works now? The Carr brothers were communist double agents only pretending to be in league with the Croatians. All along their designs were to harm both the American and Croatians.
This is not a trendy hobby of mine. Believe me, I've more important things to do. The hypothesis is presented to you for purposes of eliciting provoking thoughts on the matter. We can never know what the truth is. The system executed it's vengeance on the people involved. It killed the two communists who murdered the NYPD Officer, and whom probably also were involved in other shootings cloaked in the Son of Sam mayhem. It placed all the murders on one crazy lunatic, thus hiding any involvement or understanding of the geopolitical underpinnings whereby innocent people become useful but dead pawns, and it made a bold statement to any others seeking similar means to gain the attention and public support of the US by means of terrorism that the US would find and imprison those responsible or eliminate them as seen fit.
Now then...this is not a hobby. This is applied police science. It's a workable hypothesis supported by circumstantial evidence. What I presented to you was almost certain to have been considered, and likely a similar outline of the basic working hypothesis was used by a clandestine agency of the US government to issue contracts for solutions to the problematic Carr Brothers. Everything else could be handled conventionally.
Now is this all true? Well of course we will never know. I presented this to you as food for thought. I've no intention of trying to prove anything. I have far more pressing matters than to waste time on an already solved case.
gerhard1
Abominable Snowman
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I don't ask you to prove it, but if you could point to any evidence backing the Carrs-as-Communists or the Carrs-as-bombers hypothesis, I'd like very much to see it.
AlchoPwn
Public Service is my Motto.
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If you were going to look for a connection, why even bother with the brothers Carr. Why not look at the US Postal service and why its employees are going psycho killer; Berkowitz amongst them. Probably to do with the preferential hiring policy of taking traumatized veterans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postal
ramonmercado
CyberPunk
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Nah, the CIA carry out mind-control experiments on postal workers in attempts to create perfect psycho-killers.
AlchoPwn
Public Service is my Motto.
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If the bomb had a remote detonation facility, this would have emerged in the transcript of the trial as evidence against the testimony of Zvonko Busic. To suggest the evidence would have been suppressed is absurd, as in cases where an officer of the NYPD is killed, it is more likely that evidence will be planted than removed.
No evidence to support this. While Busic reportedly gave instructions as to how to dismantle the bomb, clearly something went wrong. To suggest the Carr brothers were involved would first require you to create a solid and undeniable link between the Carrs and the Croatian community in NYC. Without that you have nothing.
What evidence do you have that points to the Carrs being communists, let alone active agents? There is at least some evidence to support the Satanic Cult idea.
No, it didn't. For this idea to hold, how come Zvonko Busic merely went to jail? I am sure the Carrs were quietly killed due to their potential involvement in the SoS case, but you still have no clear line of evidence that extends their guilt to the 1976 Subway bombing; otherwise this is just an exercise in creative writing.
Terrorism was an almost daily occurrence in 1970s NYC.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-year-hundreds-of-bombs-went-off-in-new-york-city
The city was also experiencing a lack of funding and it was infamously almost left to go bankrupt
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-night-new-york-saved-itself-from-bankruptcy
The perpetrators were primarily not nationalist groups like the Croats, but Weathermen Yippie outfits like the Symbionese Liberation Army. This was the year after the Vietnam War ended and the Post-Watergate Ford presidency. The USA was in a bad state. Many people even thought they were losing the Cold War.
Not without a chain of evidence it isn't.
Its an interpretation at best. You have excluded a LOT of evidence that doesn't fit your idea. The correct methodology is to let the evidence tell the story, rather than create the story, then fit evidence to it.
Nobody has ever put forwards any evidence of the Carr brothers being part of a Communist outfit in any of the Son of Sam literature. A juicy detail like that scarcely have avoided the police AND the journalists. Even if it had, someone else would have picked it up in the subsequent research into the various SoS books.
Is it mere coincidence then that the killings ended when they caught Berkowitz?
gerhard1
Abominable Snowman
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If anyone is interested in perusing the idea that David Berkowitz was part of a conspiracy, I would suggest the late Maury Terry's book, The Ultimate Evil. Granted, he doesn't absolutely prove the theory, but some very good questions are raised. Berkowitz admits to pulling the trigger at least two of the Son of Sam murders, and he was present at most of the others, but Terry's contention is that he did not act alone. The group that Berkowitz was associated with was, Terry contends, involved in other homicides in such states as New York, North Dakota and California.
Normally, I don't accept conspiracy theories because there is no evidence to back them up but I think that there is such evidence in the Son of Sam case.
Normally, I don't accept conspiracy theories because there is no evidence to back them up but I think that there is such evidence in the Son of Sam case.
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A 2002 Fortean Times article addressed the possibility of linkage between the Son of Sam murders and some sort of cult. It was once accessible on the FT website, but is now only available via the Wayback Machine.
I AM THE SON OF SAM!
David Berkowitz is serving six life terms for the Son of Sam murders in New York 25 years ago. Before his June parole hearing Berkowitz, now a born-again Christian with his own website, declared that he doesn’t want to be released. JOHN VINCENT SANDERS re-examines the case, asking whether Berkowitz was the only killer using the Son of Sam MO and if he was linked to a Black Magic underground.
From FT 161
AUGUST 2002
https://web.archive.org/web/20021208090707/http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/161_sonofsam.shtml
I AM THE SON OF SAM!
David Berkowitz is serving six life terms for the Son of Sam murders in New York 25 years ago. Before his June parole hearing Berkowitz, now a born-again Christian with his own website, declared that he doesn’t want to be released. JOHN VINCENT SANDERS re-examines the case, asking whether Berkowitz was the only killer using the Son of Sam MO and if he was linked to a Black Magic underground.
From FT 161
AUGUST 2002
https://web.archive.org/web/20021208090707/http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/161_sonofsam.shtml
When the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared at Bayside ( 1970-94) with Jesus, she said he was under the control of Satan(see my 9/11 post on this forum). For more go to the shrine website www.tldm.org & look for the subject under Directives or the search facility.
skinny
Nigh
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Watching the Netflix series Sons of Sam about the Maury Terry investigation.
Terry's theory seems an overhyped load of nonsense. Many people with vested interests joining dots and coming up with bupkis. Not a single concrete finding. One very weak theory indeed.
It's a good series. Worth seeing through to the end.
ed to clarify
Terry's theory seems an overhyped load of nonsense. Many people with vested interests joining dots and coming up with bupkis. Not a single concrete finding. One very weak theory indeed.
It's a good series. Worth seeing through to the end.
ed to clarify
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