Southern Baptist In Iraq

[Anonymous]

Souther Baptist in Iraq

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/5554317.htm

CAMP BUSHMASTER, Iraq - In this dry desert world near Najaf, where the Army V Corps combat support system sprawls across miles of scabrous dust, there's an oasis of sorts: a 500-gallon pool of pristine, cool water.

It belongs to Army chaplain Josh Llano of Houston, who sees the water shortage, which has kept thousands of filthy soldiers from bathing for weeks, as an opportunity.

''It's simple. They want water. I have it, as long as they agree to get baptized,'' he said.

And agree they do. Every day, soldiers take the plunge for the Lord and come up clean for the first time in weeks.

''They do appear physically and spiritually cleansed,'' Llano said.

First, though, the soldiers have to go to one of Llano's hour-and-a-half sermons in his dirt-floor tent. Then the baptism takes an hour of quoting from the Bible.

''Regardless of their motives,'' Llano said, ``I get the chance to take them closer to the Lord.''

A blue-eyed 32-year-old with an abundance of energy, Llano goes out every day to drum up grimy soldiers for his pool.

He talks to truck drivers, tank drivers, computer specialists -- anyone and everyone. He goes out to the combat zone to the fighting soldiers and the combat support soldiers who keep them in supplies.

''You have to be aggressive to help people find themselves in God,'' he said.

He calls himself a ''Southern Baptist evangelist,'' and justifies the war and killing with a verse from the Gospel of Matthew, which he often recites: ``Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's.

''This means we are called upon by our government to fight and that is giving unto Caesar, as the Bible tells us,'' he said.

Earlier this week, word went out that portable showers might be installed here soon, but Llano was undaunted.

''There is no fruit out here, and I have a stash of raisins, juice boxes and fruit rolls to pull out,'' the chaplain said optimistically.

Interesting mindset

 

[Hospitaller]

''It's simple. They want water. I have it, as long as they agree to get baptized,'' he said.

Constantine all over again! The guy obviously shares the R.C. concept of baptism as a magical process rather than a symbolic ritual

 

[TheOriginalCujo]

The guy is quite obviously a loon. How can you bribe someone into repenting and hope that it'll stick. You can't save someone's soul by force.

And I don't see how any Christian can justify a war. Jesus did tell us to first follow the Commandments and I don't see anyway round 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. There's no real loopholes there.

Cujo

 

[Anonymous]

And I don't see how any Christian can justify a war. Jesus did tell us to first follow the Commandments and I don't see anyway round 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. There's no real loopholes there.

Not necessarily, Cujo. Firstly the commandment is not, strictly speaking "Thou shalt not kill". What it actually says is "Thou shalt do no murder".
There is, of course, endless debate about what constitutes murder in war. Some Christians go the whole hog, and are complete pacifists. Others believe, with a heavy heart, that war is sometimes justified, if it prevents a greater evil. The Second World War is often cited as an example.
If you believe the Bible, the example of the centurion's son is often quoted. The Romans were a brutal occupying army in the days of Jesus, but Jesus described the centurion as the most faithful man he had come across. Jesus willingly healed the centurion's critically-ill son, without in any way telling the centurion to give up being a soldier.
For the record, I totally agree that the present Iraq war is wrong and unjust. It is not being waged in my name.

Big Bill Robinson.

 

[Anonymous]

He should be put on a charge for discriminating against non-Christians.

 

[Anonymous]

"Jesus willingly healed the centurion's critically-ill son, without in any way telling the centurion to give up being a soldier. "

I take this as an example of showing an enemy love not as condoning his occupation.
Turn the other cheek and all that sort of thing.

 

[Anonymous]

He should be put on a charge for discriminating against non-Christians.

If he were any religion except Christian, he would have been up on charges within hours for using water to tempt parched, filthy soldiers to part with their immortal souls.

 

[Anonymous]

Worrying, isn't it?

 

[Anonymous]

Worrying, isn't it?

Extremely irritating and just plain scary to me. :hmph:

 

[lopaka]

I agree it's worrying, scary, and all the rest. But there is some irony working here as well, I think. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Southern Baptists don't believe in infant baptism. Only those having reached an "age of accountability" ie teens and adults.

And that if you say, were baptised into the Roman Catholic Church as a child and wanted to join the SBC as an adult, you'd need to be re-baptised, as the first one didn't count because you were not in a position to conciously accept Jesus at the time.

So it seems that even within his own theological framewerk these cannot possibly be valid, as the "baptised" are not agreeing to do so under their own freely chosen desire. Ooh, I love debating the minutiae of Christianity. (I don't mean with you-all, but I really would like to see the guy asked this question some time).

 

[filcee]

Jesus did tell us to first follow the Commandments and I don't see anyway round 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. There's no real loopholes there.

Cujo

That only applies to the other guy

 

[Anonymous]

I have tried to verify this story, since the concept of one man, who isn't a Quartermaster, has sole control of water seems unlikely. All I can establish is that there is a Josh Llano, who is a Military Chaplain. That's as good as it gets. Can someone who knows more about how the U.S. Military works expand on this?

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting - if true as reported - and guaranteed to whip up more anti-American sentiment in the area. Especially as it would seem to violate at least three provisions of the Geneva convention.

Art 16. Taking into consideration the provisions of the present Convention relating to rank and sex, and subject to any privileged treatment which may be accorded to them by reason of their state of health, age or professional qualifications, all prisoners of war shall be treated alike by the Detaining Power, without any adverse distinction based on race, nationality, religious belief or political opinions, or any other distinction founded on similar criteria.

Art 26. The basic daily food rations shall be sufficient in quantity, quality and variety to keep prisoners of war in good health... Sufficient drinking water shall be supplied to prisoners of war. The use of tobacco shall be permitted.

Art 34. Prisoners of war shall enjoy complete latitude in the exercise of their religious duties, including attendance at the service of their faith, on condition that they comply with the disciplinary routine prescribed by the military authorities.

 

[Anonymous]

He's not doing this to the POWs, he's doing it to the American soldiers.

 

[Pete Younger]

Can anyone explain how an American citizen can own a piece of Iraq, they've not started parcelling it up already have they?

 

[Anonymous]

He's not doing this to the POWs, he's doing it to the American soldiers.

Oops...active in practice reading must future.

 

[ninja_cat]

Can anyone explain how an American citizen can own a piece of Iraq, they've not started parcelling it up already have they?

I think thats jouno lingo to say he's in control of that area. He certainly sounds like an ideal candidate for a bit of "friendly fire"

 

[Anonymous]

an update... of sorts:

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2003/4_21/pages/baths.html

=======

Army says chaplain didn't barter baptisms for baths
___By Adelle Banks
___Religion News Service
___WASHINGTON (RNS)--A U.S. Army inquiry has determined that a Southern Baptist chaplain in Iraq who reportedly was giving baptisms to dirty soldiers desiring baths has not been using coercion.
___"I am confident that Chaplain (Josh) Llano does not, has not and will not use coercion in the exercise of his official responsibilities," said Col. Al Buckner, director of operations at the Army's chief of chaplains office at the Pentagon.
___A report from the Knight Ridder news agency about Llano's possible exchange of baptisms for baths prompted strong criticism from organizations concerned about church-state separation.
___That news story stated that the 32-year-old chaplain, who described himself as a "Southern Baptist evangelist," told a reporter: "It's simple. They want water. I have it, as long as they agree to get baptized."
___A statement from the U.S. Army's Office of the Chief of Public Affairs said Llano does not recall making such a statement.
___"He did make some of the remarks the reporter attributed to him, but not all to her, and not in the context or with the intent the article appeared to suggest," the statement said.
___The Army said soldiers at Camp Bushmaster were not suffering from a water shortage and the chaplain was only given water for baptism after water needs of the soldiers were met.
___"Soldiers had no need to resort to being baptized to get clean," the Army said.
___Mark Seibel, managing editor of The Miami Herald, defended the original story by Meg Laughlin, a Herald reporter who is covering the war in Iraq for the news agency.
___"I don't think the story suggested coercion," he said. "That's just how some people want to read it. ... We stand by the story as it was written. He made the remarks that he made, and Meg was not the only person who heard them."
___The military service said the chaplain recently has conducted 57 baptisms at the base camp, but most were for Christian soldiers who wanted to be baptized as a reaffirmation of their faith or because they never had previously taken part in the rite.
___The Army also said there was no coercion to attend Bible study, a daily voluntary activity.
___"Significantly, no soldier at Camp Bushmaster has complained or commented that the chaplain coerced anyone in any way," the statement added.
___Lt. Col. Eric Wester, spokesman for the Army chief of chaplains office, said the Army report was based on information from a commander, public affairs office and supervisory chaplains in the region.
___Martin King, a spokesman for the Southern Baptist Convention's North American Mission Board, said the Army's findings demonstrate that there may have been a misunderstanding between Llano and a reporter.

==========

over to the more intelligent board members for further debate...

 

[Jerry_B]

Channel 4 news ran a piece tonight on how various American evangelical christian organisations are sending aid to Iraq, and have plans to take the gospel with them...

 

[Pete Younger]

Channel 4 news ran a piece tonight on how various American evangelical christian organisations are sending aid to Iraq, and have plans to take the gospel with them...

Sounds like a good way to stir up even more anti American feeling.

 

[Jerry_B]

Hmm - not really. The US evangelical crowd have alot of money and power, so it's something they can do off their own backs. I imagine such groups from other countries may attempt the same thing if they can. The main drive of the C4 piece was that the US groups have strong ties with GWB.

 

[Anonymous]

Of course thge locals just see them as 'American' and not as a bunch of raving mad private individuals, so it's probably great propaganda for Osama and his boys.

 

[carole]

Maybe it's a similar idea to that 'own a piece of the moon' scheme . . .


Carole

 

[DerekH16]

Evangelists (of any persuasion) ?

I've got a nice thick wall.

Anyone got a gun?

 

[Anonymous]

Reading the repudiation of the first story, I noted some interesting wording:-

The military service said the chaplain recently has conducted 57 baptisms at the base camp, but most were for Christian soldiers who wanted to be baptized as a reaffirmation of their faith or because they never had previously taken part in the rite.

So, most of the 57 had either wanted their baptism topping up, or wanted to be baptised. What about the rest of the 57?:devil:

You would think the Baptist Standard, given the nature of the accusation, would have been more careful of the editing.

 

[Anonymous]

Two More Tales

Reverse chronological order

Story1

Politics & Government





Posted on Thu, Apr. 10, 2003
Army investigates chaplain trading water for baptisms
By TONY PUGH and KEN GARFIELD
Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Army Office of the Chief of Chaplains is checking into a report by Knight Ridder Newspapers that an Army chaplain in Iraq withheld clean bathing water from U.S. soldiers who did not first agree to hear a sermon and be baptized.

The allegation against Chaplain Josh Llano, 32, of Houston, has drawn heated responses from religious, civil libertarian and atheist groups who say the practice amounts to religious coercion. Army officials said that so far their investigation hasn't shown that to be true.

"Neither the Army nor the Army Chief of Chaplains approves of religious coercion, but reports we've gotten indicate that's not what this was at all," said Pentagon spokesperson Martha Rudd, who added that there was plenty of additional water available to soldiers at that camp.

"We don't have any information at this time that the chaplain was coercing anyone. But we're still looking into it."

Army Chief of Chaplains Gaylord Gunhus said he believes Llano was simply joking with soldiers of the Army V Corps combat support system at Camp Bushmaster near Najaf.

"I have confidence in my chaplains," Gunhus said from his office at the Pentagon. "It had nothing to do with keeping people from having water or anything at all. Speculation is, he was jesting with a bunch of folks."

Llano, a Southern Baptist, recently told a Knight Ridder reporter that he makes soldiers sit through a 90-minute sermon and then take part in baptismal services in a 500-gallon container used only for baptisms. Rudd said many of the soldiers had gone up to 10 days without a shower.

In the story, which appeared in newspapers throughout the country, Llano said the soldiers willingly agreed to his terms. Said Llano in the story: "It's simple. They want water. I have it, as long as they agree to get baptized."

Llano could not be reached for comment on Thursday. But Rudd said Llano told investigators he does not recall making those statements. She said Llano's commanders have denied the water-for-baptism allegations. Knight Ridder reporter Meg Laughlin, who wrote the original story, noted that she was not alone when Llano made the statements.

But the media accounts have set off a controversy. Military chaplains are supposed to provide services when asked - and with no conditions, said Edd Doerr, executive director of Americans for Religious Liberty, a multi-faith group in Washington that advocates for separation of church and state. Requiring soldiers to be baptized in exchange for water ignores their right to religious freedom, Doerr said.

"This guy went way overboard," Doerr said of Llano. "Chaplains have got to have an appreciation for the diverse faiths of the men they're serving."

Doerr said his group has sent a letter asking Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to "do whatever it takes to get (Llano) to behave."

Llano is trying to "lure potential converts and he is preying on vulnerable, stressed-out military men and women," to do so, according to a statement by Kathleen Johnson, military director for American Atheists, a civil rights advocacy group in Parsippany, N.J.

"Pastor Llano should share water and other resources with all needy troops. He's using government resources to advance his particular religious agenda," Johnson's statement said.

Llano was an Army drill sergeant before he was ordained, and served as a military chaplain through the Southern Baptist Convention's North American Mission Board in Alpharetta, Ga. The convention has 320 military chaplains serving in the Middle East.

North American Mission Board Vice President John Yarbrough said he will wait to see what the Army finds before responding. The options include counseling Llano or revoking his endorsement to serve as a military chaplain through the Southern Baptist Convention.

While not confirming whether Llano erred, Yarbrough said: "This is very atypical of the way our chaplains would function."

Rudd said the investigation would be conducted on an informal basis and would not require input from the Army Office of Inspector General.

(Garfield reported from Charlotte, Pugh from Washington.)

Story 2

April 8, 2003, 12:35AM
INVESTIGATION
Pool dip offered in return for baptism
By ROSANNA RUIZ
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle

A chaplain from Houston assigned to the Army V Corps support unit in Iraq is now the focus of an Army inquiry for his practice of offering soldiers a dip into his 500-gallon pool if they agree to be baptized.

A newspaper article about Josh Llano, 32, generated numerous e-mails and phone calls, said Lt. Col. Eric Wester, a chaplain and spokesman for the Chaplain Corps based in Virginia.

Wester said the article, and the response, got the immediate attention of the corps' chief, Maj. Gen. Gaylord T. Gunhus, who has requested that top chaplain officials looked into whether the article was accurate.

"The chief was immediately concerned about the nature of this article and negative reflection that it casts," Wester said. "The question then arose to what degree is the information in the article accurate. The content of the article clearly raises immediate questions."

One question is how did the chaplain get access to 500 gallons of water, which Wester said was "unusually large" for a baptismal pool.

Also, the article indicated that a water shortage kept the soldiers from bathing for weeks. Wester said he was not sure whether the unit Llano is assigned to indeed lacks water.

He said the unit is supposed to be a support unit whose mission is to resupply troops. Wester also noted that chaplains do not typically receive their own supply of water.

Wester would not say what punishment, if any, could be taken if Llano indeed did do what the article described. He said the chief wants more information before any action is taken.

He said Gunhus' response can be read two ways.

"It's good in the sense that it shows his commitment to the standards we have about free exercise of religion," Wester said. "It's bad because it's bringing very negative public perception on Army chaplaincy."

Monday's Miami Herald article described how Llano required the soldiers to first listen to an 1 1/2-hour sermon in his dirt-floor tent. The actual baptism took an hour as Llano read from the Bible.

Llano, who described himself in the article as a Southern Baptist evangelist, was quoted as saying: "You have to be aggressive to help people find themselves in God."

Wester said, "As I've read the article and discussed with other chaplains, the implication of the story is this was a kind of situation of coercion or bribery."

The story generated outrage online -- one person who posted a message on one Web site described the article as "disturbing." Another unidentified person posted a letter addressed to Gunhus that cited the Army's requirement that chaplains be "sensitive to religious pluralism and be able to provide for the free exercise of religion."

"It is my hope and my request that you will take immediate action to put an end to Chaplain Llano's tactics and remind him of his obligation," the e-mail stated.

Wester said many of the e-mails to Gunhus echoed the same sentiment and seemed to read like a chain letter. He said chaplains are required to abide by the First Amendment right of freedom of religion.

"It's very important and absolutely critical chaplains uphold the highest standard in terms of respect for not only performing rites and sacraments of their own faith, but providing for religious needs of all in that area of operation," Wester said.

He could not answer how long Llano has served as a chaplain or provide other details about his background.