Syria: Massacres, False Flags, Backroom Diplomacy & Endtimers

[Skeletonmaster]

An interesting development;



US 'outrage' over Israeli claims

Israel's forceful campaign has caused fury among some US allies
The US state department has dismissed as "outrageous" a suggestion by Israel that it has been authorised by the world to continue bombing Lebanon.
"The US is sparing no efforts to bring a durable and lasting end to this conflict," said spokesman Adam Ereli.

Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon made the suggestion after powers meeting in Rome refrained from demanding an immediate ceasefire.

UK PM Tony Blair has arrived in Washington for talks on the crisis.

His meeting with US President George W Bush comes amid growing pressure for the UK and US to join calls for an immediate ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah.

Israel has carried out dozens of fresh strikes on Lebanon. Estimates of the number of people killed range from three to 13.

Two mortar rounds have hit a convoy of vehicles carrying civilians escaping the violence in southern Lebanon.

The BBC's Jim Muir, who was with the convoy, said two people - a driver and a television cameraman in a German television car - were wounded when the rounds exploded next to their vehicle.

The convoy, organised by the Australian embassy, was returning to the port city of Tyre from the border village of Rmeish, where hundreds of people have been trapped by the Israeli offensive.

Our correspondent says the cars were clearly marked as a press and civilian convoy, and that individual journalists had been in contact with the Israelis who knew about the journey.

A BBC security adviser travelling in a car behind the German television car said he believed the mortar rounds had been fired from the Israeli side.

At talks in Rome on Wednesday, the US, UK and regional powers urged peace be sought with the "utmost urgency", but stopped short of calling for an immediate truce. That prompted Mr Ramon to declare Israel had received "permission from the world... to continue the operation".

But questioned by reporters on the sidelines of a summit in Kuala Lumpur, Mr Ereli said: "Any such statement is outrageous."

The US has said a ceasefire is only worth it if it can be made to last. Mr Bush reiterated the US's rejection of a "false peace" on Thursday evening.

But the BBC's world affairs correspondent, Nick Childs, points out that Mr Bush also emphasised how troubled he was by the mounting casualties, a suggestion - perhaps - that he is increasingly conscious of the price Washington is paying for its closeness to Israel.

Air strikes

Some 425 Lebanese, the vast majority civilians, are confirmed killed in the 17 days of the conflict - but a Lebanese minister has suggested scores more bodies lie under the rubble, yet to be recovered.

Fifty-one Israelis, including at least 18 civilians, have been killed, mostly by rockets fired over the border by the Lebanese guerrilla group Hezbollah.

The Israeli assault began after Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight in a cross-border raid on 12 July.

In the latest developments:


A Jordanian man was killed and at least three other people wounded in one of several strikes in Kfar Joz, close to the southern Lebanese market town of Natabiyeh

A Lebanese couple in Kfar Joz died when their bomb shelter collapsed on top of them, and at least three children were wounded

There were multiple strikes on the Bekaa Valley to the east, on villages around Tyre, and roads in the south-east

Sporadic clashes were also reported in Bint Jbeil, where Israel suffered its worst single losses on Wednesday

At least three people were reported injured as Hezbollah rocket attacks on northern Israel continued. Kiryat Shemona was one of the towns hit

Unarmed UN observers have been temporarily relocated from border positions in southern Lebanon to posts manned by the UN peacekeeping force Unifil. It follows the deaths of four UN observers in an Israeli strike on Tuesday
In Israel, few people still speak of being able to neutralise Hezbollah, our correspondent in Jerusalem Katya Adler says.

Instead Israel speaks of trying to establish a "secure zone" empty of Hezbollah fighters north of the border with Israel.

The Israeli government's announcement that it is calling up three divisions of reservists - said to number between 15,000 to 40,000 - suggests it is preparing for the possibility of a protracted war, our correspondent says.


Source; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 223940.stm

 

[Scunnerlugzz]

I'll admit I don't know the answer, who does?

However, I have to be against whoever is killing the most innocent people, people like me and you. Who is that?

Probably the wrong place but:
Honestly no agenda here, but even in Iraq...I'm beginning to wonder how many innocent folks died every day under Sadam H. compared to now?

 

[stu neville]

An interesting development;



US 'outrage' over Israeli claims

The US state department has dismissed as "outrageous" a suggestion by Israel that it has been authorised by the world to continue bombing Lebanon.

"The US is sparing no efforts to bring a durable and lasting end to this conflict," said spokesman Adam Ereli.

.."meanwhile, we'll continue to supply Israel with ordnance via Prestwick.."

Yeah, I know it's not as simple as that, but still...

The only way anyone in that region's going to even consider listening is when everyone says "Stop, now." I'm fairly politically aware, but I'm at a loss to see just how Bush and Blair can justify saying "We want a ceasefire as soon as possible" as opposed to "We want one right now." How is a later ceasfire more beneficial than an immedaite one, exactly?

Diplomacy will surely be more measured in an hiatus of peace.

Is this just Bush, and by default Blair, pushing the envelope and encouraging Israel to get rid of as many militants as they can before the end of the round, like some obscene trolley-dash?

 

[BaronHardacre]

This may perhaps be the dumbest question I've asked (and believe me, I've been very dumb in my life), but what is the point of the U.N?
They seem totally incable of doing anything which stops people being killed on both sides, and lets be honest, this isn't the first time that the U.N has looked like a bunch of eunuchs.
I do despair at humanity, sometimes. As the God like Bill Hicks said, we are just a virus with shoes...

 

[Stormkhan]

The U.N. is wonderful in theory. Trouble is, the world has so many independent (and semi-independent) sovreign states that getting a common consensus is nigh impossible. Each country has it's own agenda, it has old enemies, it has old (and new) allies. It's not a case of 'one country, one vote' because life isn't simple like that. Thus the U.N. is a lumbering bundle of good intentioned useless twerps.

 

[Jerry_B]

The main sticking point is the 5 permanent members of the Security Council - if you get any situation which goes against the interests of one or two of them, you then tend to get to an impasse. If they don't meet in the first place to discuss a problem, then things don't move at all fast as far as the rest of the UN is concerned. So with the US and UK dragging their heels over the current situation, don't expect anything substantial to happen just yet.

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

the problem with the UN is that it's little different from the league of nations which was completely impotent in the face of aggression before world war 2. it's used by the big boys when it wants to justify their actions and then ignored when it can't. it's not really got any muscle and never has.

 

[Jerry_B]

I think people tend to see the UN as something which is seperate from the major players in the world. With the static group that makes up the Security Council in charge of things and having the power of veto, that's not the case. The UN can only move quickly on an issue if the Council decides that something should be done. Israel has a history of ignoring UN resolutions, but would probably listen more to the UN if the US took some active part in curbing Israeli policies. There has been an idea to replace the Security Council, or at least open it up to a secondary guiding body which rotates membership from different countries. However, nothing much has come of this. The UN is still basically stuck in the gear that it's been in since the Cold War kick-started - it's only toothless in this situation because certain parties can make it so.

 

[lupinwick]

The UN being toothless seems to be the general opinion. The news this morning had the Foreign Secretary getting harangued over the distinct lack of progress with a ceasefire, the primary points being:

Only the US can exert the right kind of pressure on Israel.
The UN (by inaction) in the eyes of 1 Israeli minister sanction the action against Hizbollah.

However,

Amir Peretz, the Israeli defense minister, has vowed that Israel would "expand and strengthen" its attack on Hizbollah, diminishing international hopes that a 48-hour halt in air strikes could be turned into a longer term ceasefire.

Mr Peretz's announcement came hours after Condoleezza Rice, the American secretary of state, said that she was "convinced" that a long-term ceasefire to end fighting between Israel and Hizbollah could be forged this week.

Source

doesn't bode well for any kind of resolution.

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

why would events in palestine and lebanon influence iran's decision on whether to go ahead with their nuclear programme if it's only going to supply energy? :?


Iran's Ahmadinejad signals hardening of nuclear stance


TEHRAN (AFX) - Iran's president signalled Sunday that Israeli attacks against the Palestinian territories and Lebanon were causing Iran to harden its stance in the international row over its nuclear programme. 'We are examining the package, considering our interests and definitive legitimate rights and will announce our views at the appointed date,' Mahoud Ahmadinejad said of an international offer of incentives in exchange for a halt to sensitive atomic work. 'But the incidents in Lebanon and Palestine have influenced our examination,' said the president, whose country is a major supporter of Lebanon's Shiite Hezbollah movement as well as the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

Ahmadinejad also asserted that 'the government is determined to fully exploit the rights of the Iranian nation,' signalling Tehran's continued unwillingness to freeze its controversial uranium enrichment programme.

Iran says it only wants to enrich uranium to the levels needed for reactor fuel and that this is a right enshrined by the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. 'Nuclear energy is clean and renewable, and all nations have the right to use it,' said Ahmadinejad, who was speaking at a joint news conference with visiting Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Enrichment can also be extended to make weapons, and lingering questions over the nature of Iran's work has prompted a series of demands for a moratorium.

Iran had also threatened Sunday to bin the international proposal -- which was drawn up by the five permanent members of the UN Security Council plus Germany -- if the UN Security Council passes a draft resolution demanding that Tehran freeze enrichment by the end of August.

Iran had said it will take until August 22 to reply the offer that was handed to Tehran on June 6, prompting the Security Council to reinforce demands for an enrichment freeze.

Foreign ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi said Tehran could 'revise' its policies, implicitly warning that future access for UN inspectors could end. He also said the proposed UN resolution would 'worsen the crisis in the region'. 'By putting pressure and trying to intimidate Iran, no country will achieve anything. On the contrary, the situation will worsen,' Asefi said. 'If tomorrow they pass a resolution against Iran, the package will not be on the agenda any more,' he said of the proposal, which offers Iran the prospect of multilateral talks on trade, diplomatic and technology incentives if it complies. 'Issuing this resolution will worsen the crisis in the region.' When asked to elaborate on what specific measures Iran might take, Asefi replied: 'They know what I am talking about.' Iranian leaders have already warned they could halt cooperation with inspectors from the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and even quit the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

They have also played up Iran's regional clout and oil wealth.

A text of the proposed UN resolution was distributed to the 15 council nations on Friday, and US ambassador John Bolton told reporters that a vote could be held early in the week.

If Iran continues enriching uranium, 'the next step will be the consideration of sanctions in the Security Council, and it would be our intention to move forcefully to get those sanctions adopted,' Bolton said. The first stage would be political and economic sanctions, diplomats stressed, pointing to a vote within a few days. 'My hope is that we will be able to adopt it by Monday,' said French Ambassador Jean-Marc de La Sabliere, whose country holds the rotating council presidency for July.

The United States and its allies believe that Iran is seeking to build a nuclear bomb, and US President George W. Bush said Friday Tehran 'will not be allowed' to achieve its wish.

Russia and China have led opposition to any mention of sanctions in the UN resolution.

Moscow's ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, stressed the new resolution would not threaten sanctions and that it was 'an invitation to dialogue' with Iran.

http://www.iii.co.uk/shares/?type=news& ... on=article

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

cranking up?

Israel will win: Ehud Olmert

TONY EASTLEY: In Israel Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said there are now no limits on Israeli action to stop Hezbollah.

His vow came as Israel stepped up its rhetoric and its attacks against the militant Islamic group. In the latest strike Israel bombarded parts of Beirut. Reports say at least 20 people have been killed.

Meanwhile Israelis are battening down and being told that the war against Hezbollah should be seen in much wider terms.

Middle East Correspondent David Hardaker reports from the northern Israeli city of Haifa.

DAVID HARDAKER: 3,000 Hezbollah rockets have now hit northern Israel since the start of hostilities almost four weeks ago. In the last few days they've been coming in the hundreds.

So, today, with a third of his country under siege, and a million people living in fear of attack, Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert made an address to his nation.

In his speech, Mr Olmert said the battle between Israel and Hezbollah was vital for all Jews around the world. And this war was different, he said, because the enemy was determined to see the destruction of the state of Israel.

EHUD OLMERT: I know you all think that we are fighting against Hezbollah. But let's face it. The state of Israel is fighting against the Iranians and the Syrians, who are using the Hezbollah in order to attack Israel from the north. This is a very difficult war.

DAVID HARDAKER: Mr Olmert's address was aimed at galvanising the resolve of Israelis, many of whom are weary after four weeks living in bomb shelters. Yet, they may have to endure more. Israel is gearing up for an even tougher phase in what has been a brutal war.

EHUD OLMERT: We are going to win this war. As I said from day one, it's not going to be easy. We are going to pay a terrible price. But we'd rather pay this price now than wait two, three, four years and maybe face much more devastating and destructive weapons that could be launched against the people of Israel at that time.

DAVID HARDAKER: Defence Minister Emil Perez has told the Army it is to widen its assault on Hezbollah, should diplomacy fail. Many Israelis have been surprised, if not shocked, at the ferocity of Hezbollah's attacks. And nowhere more so than here in the city of Haifa, where today locals were trying to put their lives back together.

(Sound of scraper on brick, drill)

Three people died here yesterday and more than 60 were injured. It wasn't the single biggest attack of the conflict, but this neighbourhood believed it had something special. It defies the stereotype, because Jews and Arabs have lived here happily together.

NICHOLAS: I'm here yesterday, I don't sleep, I try to help my friends here.

DAVID HARDAKER: This man calls himself Nicholas. He's an Arab. He's tried to help his neighbour and he's barely slept.

NICHOLAS: We have a good love. We give heart for others and what happened is difficult for all our place here, (inaudible).

SHLOMO GILBAU: I'm sitting here actually seeing the house of one of my friends and I feel like it's about time to finish the (inaudible).

DAVID HARDAKER: Shlomo Gilbau (phonetic) is a councillor on Haifa council. He believes the Hezbollah attack ripped the heart from this neighbourhood.

SHLOMO GILBAU: I believe sincerely that nobody will break this great relationship between Arabs, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, doesn't really matter what religion they are. We feel like we are from Haifa, a beautiful city that is now bleeding from this horrible situation.

DAVID HARDAKER: Were you surprised at the attack, were you surprised that the rockets landed here?

SHLOMO GILBAU: We were surprised somehow. We were hoping that the other side, the other crazy guy will understand that there is some kind of limit for any war.

DAVID HARDAKER: But the sirens were sounding again and it was time to take shelter and learn more about the fine art of destruction.

TONY EASTLEY: Middle East Correspondent David Hardaker.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1709091.htm

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

...

EHUD OLMERT: I know you all think that we are fighting against Hezbollah. But let's face it. The state of Israel is fighting against the Iranians and the Syrians, who are using the Hezbollah in order to attack Israel from the north. This is a very difficult war.

DAVID HARDAKER: Mr Olmert's address was aimed at galvanising the resolve of Israelis, many of whom are weary after four weeks living in bomb shelters. Yet, they may have to endure more. Israel is gearing up for an even tougher phase in what has been a brutal war.

...

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1709091.htm

One theory is that Israel is trying to manœuver the US and its allies into a position where war with Iran and Syria becomes a lot more likely, since the way things are going in Afghanistan and Iraq, it looks like the US and its Allies may already have bitten off more than they can chew and be reluctant to take things further on the ground.

So, the State of Israel may actually be intending to fight its war against Iran and Syria, by proxy. Will British troops end up as part of the jam filling in Israel's 'Defensible Boundaries' sandwich?

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

i think that's probably the case but i think that although the initiative lies with israel iran may not have been entirely blameless in bringing events to a head (re my first post on this thread, page one).

anyway, here's what they make of the draft resolution.

Iran lashes out at proposed UN resolution on Lebanon crisis

TEHRAN, Aug. 7 (Xinhua) -- Iran on Monday denounced a draft UN resolution aimed at ending the ongoing conflict between Israel and Lebanese Hezbollah as a new act against Lebanon.

"The proposed resolution is one-sided and a new political resolution against the Lebanese nation," Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki told reporters on the sidelines of an international meeting in Tehran.

"The resolution accused Lebanon of starting the crisis, it talks about a ceasefire, but it does not mention the withdrawal of Israeli troops," he said.

"It is natural that we require a stop to an invasion. We support any consensus that all Lebanese agree on," he stressed. Meanwhile, Mottaki criticized Israel by saying that "as long as the regime exists with world powers' support, the region and the world will enjoy no peace."

Earlier in the day, Iranian government spokesman Gholam Hossein Elham termed the proposed resolution as a threat to the entire region.

"If the idea of deploying NATO forces on Lebanon's territory realized, we believe it is a threat to the whole region," said Elham, adding that international bodies should pass a resolution on probing roots of the problem fairly.

The UN Security Council discussed on Saturday a U.S.-French draft resolution that calls for "full cessation of hostilities" between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon, which have been involved in a bloody conflict since July 12.

The draft calls for "a full cessation of hostilities based upon, in particular, the immediate cessation by Hezbollah of all attacks and the immediate cessation by Israel of all offensive military operations."

Hezbollah warned on Saturday that Israel must withdraw from Lebanon entirely, or it would not abide by the resolution. The guerrilla group also pointed out that the lack of a timetable for such a withdrawal was perhaps the biggest problem in the text.

The Security Council is expected to hold more rounds of consultations on the draft before it can be put for vote. UN diplomats said they expect the council to adopt a resolution in the next few days.

A second resolution is expected to follow in a couple of weeks after the first one is adopted, setting conditions for a permanent ceasefire and authorizing an international force.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006- ... 935977.htm

 

[Jerry_B]

Neither the US nor the UK are in any position to fight a war against Iran or Syria. Alot of the announcements from the Israelis at the moment simply sound like the usual stuff of propoganda. Israel really can't do much to stop Hezbollah firing rockets and so seems to be putting various brave faces onto the situation, even though it must be aware that it cannot wage any sort of conventional war against Hezbollah - certainly not in terms of destroying it.

I expect things will become more clear once some sort of cease-fire, etc. deal is put into action.

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

Neither the US nor the UK are in any position to fight a war against Iran or Syria. Alot of the announcements from the Israelis at the moment simply sound like the usual stuff of propoganda. Israel really can't do much to stop Hezbollah firing rockets and so seems to be putting various brave faces onto the situation, even though it must be aware that it cannot wage any sort of conventional war against Hezbollah - certainly not in terms of destroying it.

true but there is potential for a situation to develop in which britain and america are in no position not to fight a war. also, israel's inabilty to deal with hezbollah conventionally could lead to an attck at source. presumably hezbollah will be reaching a point in the near future where they will be without ammunition. once that stage is reached the only way they can be resupplied would be by iran or syria. if there is intelligence to that effect then that will open the floodgates as far as israel is concerned.

 

[ramonmercado]

Israel's Syria 'raid' remains a mystery

This is an odd story, maybe it should be in Mainstream News but I'm putting it here in the hope that someone may be able to shed some light on the topic. What were the Israelis up to? Why did the Israelis flee instead of engaging the Syrian jets? Did the Israeli jets bomb a target or did they strike at empty desert?

Israel's Syria 'raid' remains a mystery
By Jonathan Marcus
Diplomatic correspondent, BBC News


Israel has kept up a careful policy of silence over the accusations
During the early hours of last Thursday morning, a number of Israeli jets appear to have entered Syrian air-space from the Mediterranean Sea, possibly penetrating deep into the country.
Later unidentified drop tanks, which may have contained fuel for the planes, were found on Turkish soil near the Syrian border, indicating perhaps the Israeli jets' exit route.

The Syrian authorities are livid. They say that the aircraft were driven off but that they fired their weaponry into a deserted area.

The implication is that the planes effectively dumped their munitions so better to manoeuvre during their escape.

The Syrian government has briefed Western diplomats and complained to the United Nations.

But there have been no images of the empty countryside where the weapons are alleged to have landed.

Israeli sources are saying nothing.

Long-standing contacts are uncharacteristically silent, noting only that Israel's military censorship on this subject is as tight as they can ever remember.

Mood of satisfaction

From Washington has come some partial illumination of the shadows.

US officials indicate that at least one target in northern Syria was hit and despite the Israeli silence there does seem to be a perceptible mood of satisfaction in Israel; a sense that what they wanted to achieve was carried out.

So what actually went on during the early hours of Thursday morning? Why were Israeli jets over Syria at all?

And if they indeed released weapons, what were they firing at?

Initially experts suggested that this might simply have been an over-flight to trigger air defence radars and gather electronic intelligence.

Such a probe might be linked to new air defence missiles reportedly supplied to Syria by the Russians.

Other pundits wondered if a potential strike path to Iran was being tested out; though a southern route here into US-controlled Iraqi air-space would be more logical.

And neither option would explain why such aircraft might be armed with air to ground weapons.

North Korea link

As far as likely targets of any attack go there are two broad suggestions.

One, cited by the New York Times newspaper quoting a US source, suggests that the attack was in some way linked to North Korea.

The former US ambassador to the UN, John Bolton, in a recent article in the Wall Street Journal, raised the possibility that Syria is sheltering technology or materials relating to North Korea's nuclear programme.

When I spoke to Mr Bolton in London just the other day he strongly defended this thesis though he would not be drawn on the reliability of his sources.

Another suggestion is that maybe a missile store or factory with weaponry heading to Hezbollah in Lebanon was hit.

Israel has long complained that the Damascus government is at the very least turning a blind eye to such weapons supplies coming from Iran.

Maybe Israel decided to send the Syrian government a message that it would understand.

Muted response

What is intriguing is that the response of both the Syrian and Israeli governments has been muted - in the Israeli case largely mute.

The Syrians, while angry, are clearly embarrassed that something may have occurred that they failed to prevent.


Israel and Syria remain technically at war

Israel's deterrent capacity, weakened by the summer 2006 war in Lebanon, is partially restored.

But an explanation too is needed for Israel's silence.

Maybe it does not want to over-play its hand.

This apparent raid comes after a summer of tensions between the two countries which some feared might lead to open warfare.

During the past few weeks tensions have markedly declined.

Indeed prior to the bombing mission, if that is what it was, Israel reportedly sent messages to Syria via an intermediary, indicating that it was scaling down its forces on the Golan Heights.

Was this an effort to ensure that this "raid" was not interpreted by the Syrians as a prelude to a large-scale Israeli attack?

There are still more questions than answers in this affair. More information is slowly seeping out.

But in many ways it is remarkable that in an age of instant news and the worldwide web spreading information almost at the speed of light, there can still be episodes like this that remain shrouded in so many layers of mystery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6991718.stm

 

[Jerry_B]

Somewhat odd military action has been going on between the two for quite some time. This site describes some recent examples.

 

[Philo_T]

Some theorized that the Iraq's missing WMDs had been hidden away over the border in Syria.

nahhhhh....

 

[crunchy5]

Probably the Israelis checking out the state of Syrian air defenses, the Syrians and Iranians have both bought the same over hyped Russian missile system, probably as effective as Patriot turned out to be. Note the Syrians claimed their air defences scared the Israelis off, when no doubt they tried to do a bit more than that... or did they.

 

[Jerry_B]

That's unlikely - they wouldn't need to fire weapons for a start, and the Israelis have other types of aircraft that can test Syria's defence system.

 

[crunchy5]

That's unlikely - they wouldn't need to fire weapons for a start, and the Israelis have other types of aircraft that can test Syria's defence system.

I'd heard that the "weapons" were actually extra fuel tanks jettisoned when they were empty, has it been proven that they were actually unexploded missiles or are we talking bullets ?

 

[Anonymous]

That's unlikely - they wouldn't need to fire weapons for a start, and the Israelis have other types of aircraft that can test Syria's defence system.

What were they doing there?

 

[waitew]

Probably the Israelis checking out the state of Syrian air defenses, the Syrians and Iranians have both bought the same over hyped Russian missile system, probably as effective as Patriot turned out to be. Note the Syrians claimed their air defences scared the Israelis off, when no doubt they tried to do a bit more than that... or did they.

Why do you assume the Russian system is "over hyped"?Seems to me the Russians put the first artifical satellite in orbit,first living thing in orbit,first man,first woman,held all the 'length of time in space' records for years,shot down a U2 (when the USA didn't think it could be done) etc,etc & in fact the USA was for several years (after the Columbia disaster) until just recently dependent upon them to get people up to the international space station.
It seems to me that when it comes to missiles & the Russians,I'd be inclined to believe their claims until I had evidence to the contrary.Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

[Jerry_B]

What were they doing there?

Gathering information about Syria's defence system perhaps. It's an old trick - fly close to the border, see what scans you, note down what it is so that later you can develop countermeasures. The US used to do it alot WRT Soviet Union, and lost quite a few aircraft over the years.

 

[crunchy5]

Probably the Israelis checking out the state of Syrian air defenses, the Syrians and Iranians have both bought the same over hyped Russian missile system, probably as effective as Patriot turned out to be. Note the Syrians claimed their air defences scared the Israelis off, when no doubt they tried to do a bit more than that... or did they.

Why do you assume the Russian system is "over hyped"?Seems to me the Russians put the first artifical satellite in orbit,first living thing in orbit,first man,first woman,held all the 'length of time in space' records for years,shot down a U2 (when the USA didn't think it could be done) etc,etc & in fact the USA was for several years (after the Columbia disaster) until just recently dependent upon them to get people up to the international space station.
It seems to me that when it comes to missiles & the Russians,I'd be inclined to believe their claims until I had evidence to the contrary.Do you have evidence to the contrary?

I've nothing against Russian kit in the round but the new defence system in question boasts of having the best counter ecm available, I personally think the Yanks and hence the Israelis will have a trick or two up their sleeve, in forthcoming conflicts I think Russian anti ship missiles will cause a few headaches (sinking's) for the US navy. As regard anti missile defence I believe no one has cracked it, going towards the ground missiles are way too small and way too fast to target and hit effectively.

What were they doing there?

Gathering information about Syria's defence system perhaps. It's an old trick - fly close to the border, see what scans you, note down what it is so that later you can develop countermeasures. The US used to do it alot WRT Soviet Union, and lost quite a few aircraft over the years.

I thought that's what I said y/day and you objected :?

What do you mean close to the border, are you trying to imply there was no incursion into Syrian airspace ?

 

[Jerry_B]

I was referring to 'other types of aircraft' that the Israeli's already use to gather information about other defence systems. Fighter aircraft going deep into Syrian airspace wouldn't be able to gather that sort of information.

 

[ramonmercado]

Makes me wonder. If this was an SF novel then there would have been aliens hidden in the "barren" desert. Maybe even some of Cthuhlus mates.

 

[Quake42]

According to the Times the raid may have been against nuclear material imported from North Korea...

 

[rynner2]

According to the Times the raid may have been against nuclear material imported from North Korea...

Israelis ‘blew apart Syrian nuclear cache’
Secret raid on Korean shipment
Uzi Mahnaimi in Tel Aviv, Sarah Baxter in Washington and Michael Sheridan

IT was just after midnight when the 69th Squadron of Israeli F15Is crossed the Syrian coast-line. On the ground, Syria’s formidable air defences went dead. An audacious raid on a Syrian target 50 miles from the Iraqi border was under way.

At a rendezvous point on the ground, a Shaldag air force commando team was waiting to direct their laser beams at the target for the approaching jets. The team had arrived a day earlier, taking up position near a large underground depot. Soon the bunkers were in flames.

Ten days after the jets reached home, their mission was the focus of intense speculation this weekend amid claims that Israel believed it had destroyed a cache of nuclear materials from North Korea.

The Israeli government was not saying. “The security sources and IDF [Israeli Defence Forces] soldiers are demonstrating unusual courage,” said Ehud Olmert, the prime minister. “We naturally cannot always show the public our cards.”

The Syrians were also keeping mum. “I cannot reveal the details,” said Farouk al-Sharaa, the vice-president. “All I can say is the military and political echelon is looking into a series of responses as we speak. Results are forthcoming.” The official story that the target comprised weapons destined for Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed Lebanese Shi’ite group, appeared to be crumbling in the face of widespread scepticism.

Andrew Semmel, a senior US State Department official, said Syria might have obtained nuclear equipment from “secret suppliers”, and added that there were a “number of foreign technicians” in the country.

Asked if they could be North Korean, he replied: “There are North Korean people there. There’s no question about that.” He said a network run by AQ Khan, the disgraced creator of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, could be involved.

But why would nuclear material be in Syria? Known to have chemical weapons, was it seeking to bolster its arsenal with something even more deadly?

Alternatively, could it be hiding equipment for North Korea, enabling Kim Jong-il to pretend to be giving up his nuclear programme in exchange for economic aid? Or was the material bound for Iran, as some authorities in America suggest?

According to Israeli sources, preparations for the attack had been going on since late spring, when Meir Dagan, the head of Mossad, presented Olmert with evidence that Syria was seeking to buy a nuclear device from North Korea.

The Israeli spy chief apparently feared such a device could eventually be installed on North-Korean-made Scud-C missiles.

“This was supposed to be a devastating Syrian surprise for Israel,” said an Israeli source. “We’ve known for a long time that Syria has deadly chemical warheads on its Scuds, but Israel can’t live with a nuclear warhead.”

An expert on the Middle East, who has spoken to Israeli participants in the raid, told yesterday’s Washington Post that the timing of the raid on September 6 appeared to be linked to the arrival three days earlier of a ship carrying North Korean material labelled as cement but suspected of concealing nuclear equipment.

The target was identified as a northern Syrian facility that purported to be an agricultural research centre on the Euphrates river. Israel had been monitoring it for some time, concerned that it was being used to extract uranium from phosphates.

According to an Israeli air force source, the Israeli satellite Ofek 7, launched in June, was diverted from Iran to Syria. It sent out high-quality images of a northeastern area every 90 minutes, making it easy for air force specialists to spot the facility.

Early in the summer Ehud Barak, the defence minister, had given the order to double Israeli forces on its Golan Heights border with Syria in anticipation of possible retaliation by Damascus in the event of air strikes.

Sergei Kirpichenko, the Russian ambassador to Syria, warned President Bashar al-Assad last month that Israel was planning an attack, but suggested the target was the Golan Heights.

Israeli military intelligence sources claim Syrian special forces moved towards the Israeli outpost of Mount Hermon on the Golan Heights. Tension rose, but nobody knew why.

At this point, Barak feared events could spiral out of control. The decision was taken to reduce the number of Israeli troops on the Golan Heights and tell Damascus the tension was over. Syria relaxed its guard shortly before the Israeli Defence Forces struck.

Only three Israeli cabinet ministers are said to have been in the know � Olmert, Barak and Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister. America was also consulted. According to Israeli sources, American air force codes were given to the Israeli air force attaché in Washington to ensure Israel’s F15Is would not mistakenly attack their US counterparts.

Once the mission was under way, Israel imposed draconian military censorship and no news of the operation emerged until Syria complained that Israeli aircraft had violated its airspace. Syria claimed its air defences had engaged the planes, forcing them to drop fuel tanks to lighten their loads as they fled.

But intelligence sources suggested it was a highly successful Israeli raid on nuclear material supplied by North Korea.

Washington was rife with speculation last week about the precise nature of the operation. One source said the air strikes were a diversion for a daring Israeli commando raid, in which nuclear materials were intercepted en route to Iran and hauled to Israel. Others claimed they were destroyed in the attack.

There is no doubt, however, that North Korea is accused of nuclear cooperation with Syria, helped by AQ Khan’s network. John Bolton, who was undersecretary for arms control at the State Department, told the United Nations in 2004 the Pakistani nuclear scientist had “several other” customers besides Iran, Libya and North Korea.

Some of his evidence came from the CIA, which had reported to Congress that it viewed “Syrian nuclear intentions with growing concern”.

“I’ve been worried for some time about North Korea and Iran outsourcing their nuclear programmes,” Bolton said last week. Syria, he added, was a member of a “junior axis of evil”, with a well-established ambition to develop weapons of mass destruction.

The links between Syria and North Korea date back to the rule of Kim Il-sung and President Hafez al-Assad in the last century. In recent months, their sons have quietly ordered an increase in military and technical cooperation.

Foreign diplomats who follow North Korean affairs are taking note. There were reports of Syrian passengers on flights from Beijing to Pyongyang and sightings of Middle Eastern businessmen from sources who watch the trains from North Korea to China.

On August 14, Rim Kyong Man, the North Korean foreign trade minister, was in Syria to sign a protocol on “cooperation in trade and science and technology”. No details were released, but it caught Israel’s attention.

Syria possesses between 60 and 120 Scud-C missiles, which it has bought from North Korea over the past 15 years. Diplomats believe North Korean engineers have been working on extending their 300-mile range. It means they can be used in the deserts of northeastern Syria � the area of the Israeli strike.

The triangular relationship between North Korea, Syria and Iran continues to perplex intelligence analysts. Syria served as a conduit for the transport to Iran of an estimated £50m of missile components and technology sent by sea from North Korea. The same route may be in use for nuclear equipment.

But North Korea is at a sensitive stage of negotiations to end its nuclear programme in exchange for security guarantees and aid, leading some diplomats to cast doubt on the likelihood that Kim would cross America’s “red line” forbidding the proliferation of nuclear materials.

Christopher Hill, the State Department official representing America in the talks, said on Friday he could not confirm “intelligence-type things”, but the reports underscored the need “to make sure the North Koreans get out of the nuclear business”.

By its actions, Israel showed it is not interested in waiting for diplomacy to work where nuclear weapons are at stake.

As a bonus, the Israelis proved they could penetrate the Syrian air defence system, which is stronger than the one protecting Iranian nuclear sites.

This weekend President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran sent Ali Akbar Mehrabian, his nephew, to Syria to assess the damage. The new “axis of evil” may have lost one of its spokes.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 461421.ece

More questions than answers...

 

[ramonmercado]

Some more, from a reporter who visited the scene.

Trish Schuh Reports From Deir al-Zur
Monday, September 17th, 2007
Trish Schuh is the only Western journalist to actually go to Deir al-Zur, the area where Israeli plans are said to have attacked a missile depot.

SYRIA'S SMOKING GUN
by Trish Schuh
Sept. 17, 2007
Written for "Syria Comment"

DEIR EZ ZOR, Syria- On a bridge over the Euphrates River at sundown, neighboring mosques weave a chorus calling Muslims to prayer. This destitute, ramshackle oil town on Iraq's desert frontier seems calm, despite Israel's recent raid on a military base outside the city to destroy "Syria's nuclear program.

The Qamishli-Deir Ez Zor highway, alleged by Israel to be a weapons route for Iraqi insurgents, was also quiet, and there were no heavy construction machinery or building cranes visible in the opposite direction on the road from Deir Ez Zor to Iraq.

At the Syria-Qusayba checkpoint near the Iraq border, I was stopped by the Syrian military. Across the road on the Iraqi side, sounds of American military operations puttered as blackhawk helicopters flew overhead. "No photos," said the Syrian military captain. Cameras could draw US sniper fire.
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The surrounding terrain is flat barren desert, with visibility extending for miles. It is difficult to see how smugglers, insurgents or anything that moves could penetrate here. This is also where CNN claimed Israel punched "a big hole in the desert" by attacking North Korean nuclear materials. But the big hole could be in CNN's story.
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As far back as 2002, Charles Duelfer of the United Nations Iraq Survey Group called then Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security, John Bolton's nuclear claims against Syria "exaggerated." It was also the assessment of the CIA. In 2004, Muhammad El Baradei chief of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reiterated that there was no evidence Syria had a nuclear program.
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After the invasion of Iraq, former US Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner identified charges against Syria as one of 50 false news stories created by Israel and the White House to justify war. "Saddam's nuclear WMDs moved to Syria" was propaganda he said.
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Several days ago, after the attack on Syria's "nuclear program", I spoke to western oil company officials in Deir Ez Zor. One technician told me they routinely monitor radiation as part of the refining process. They registered no heightened levels of nuclear residue in the area as there would have been if the Israelis had hit a North Korean atomic stockpile. Operations and technical foremen put it this way: "The nuclear claims against Syria are pure bullsh*t."
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The Syrian smoking gun is the complete lack of any mushroom cloud.

http://joshualandis.com/blog/?p=371