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Talking Heads

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Does anyone have information on instances of consulting decapitated heads as oracles?
The Greek myth of Orpheus says that having been torn to pieces by frenzied women his singing head floated to Lesbos where an oracle was founded. The Celtic myth of Bendigeidfran (or Bran) says that his decapitated head entertained and prophesised to his colleagues for many years before being buried in London. Gerebert, pseudo-pope of Rome consulted a bronze head about his future career and in c.1194 Stephen, governor of Anjou, consulted a talking head in Toledo which prophesised his manner of death. Incidentally in 448 A.D. John the Baptist is said to have shown his head to monks at Jerusalem, but no conversation is recorded!
Has there been any more modern accounts appearing?
 
One would think that if these individuals had any ability to predict the future, they would have found a way to avoid decapitation in the first place....

By the way, a head cannot be decapitated, since decapitation means being deprived of a head. The body is decapitated. The head is - well, someone on the snopes board suggested using the term "decorpused."

Nonny "just hoping I don't get detailed" Mouse
 
This moves off thread slightly, but does anyone know anything about the following:

During the "reign of Madame Guillotine" one of the unfortunate victims had their head removed and transported to a laboratory.
There, the head was placed on a plate of blood and observed. The head's lips were seen to move and the eyes opened.

Was this a sort of "headless chicken running around the farmyard" muscle stimuls, or did the head regain consciousness?
 
In the Nordic mythology Odin regularly consulted a head I think was called Mimer. He knew a lot of things, was a bit of an oracle. I sadly can't remember much of it, why he was decapitated and such. I really should know this stuff.
 
"To obtain the great wisdom for which he is so famous, Odin, in the morn of time, visited Mimir's (Memor memroy) spring, "The fountain of all wit and wisdom," i whose liquid depths even the future was clearly mirrored, and besought the old man who guarded it to let him have a draught. But Mimir, who well knew the value of such a favour (for his spring was considered the source or headwater of memory), refused the boon unless Odin would consent to give one of his eyes in exchange.

The god did not hesitate, so highly did he prize the darught, but immediately plcuked out one of his eyes, which Mmir kept in pledge, sinking it deep down into his fountain, where it shone with mild lustre, leaving Odin with but one eye, which is considered emblemayic of the sun."

-The Norsemen, H A Guerber, page 30

The same book also refers to Mimir as a Sea Giant, and as representing the great eastern sea from which all things came, but has no references to his head being kept anywhere other than firmly attached to his body.
 
In the comedy "The Honourable History of Friar Bacon and Friar Bungay", printed in 1594, the Friars make a brass head, then, with the help of the Devil, confer the power of speech on it. It will utter at some point in the course of a month but they must be present to hear it speak or all their labours will go to nothing.

After a three week vigil, day and night, Bacon hands over the watch to his servant, Miles, and falls into an exhausted sleep.

When the head does speak, it utters but two words "Time Is" which Miles does not think important enough to justify waking his master. Next the head says "Time was" and then "Time is past" before it falls on the floor, breaking into pieces.

Source: Cambridge Guide to Literature in English

Oh, and what in the name of Chris Evans and all his little wizards is this thread doing on the "Web Site issues" section, anyway?
 
you may get a few more answers to this if you post a link to it in the general forteana section or one of the others

cas
 
Yeah, what you told about Mimer was pretty much what I knew as well. But he was decapitated, I believe he was once caught by the jaetter(enemies of the valhallan gods), and all they sent back was his head.
 
I just wanted to add to the above signature.

"Live like every day is the last, and spend money like it's the first."
 
The story of Mimir's beheading appears in the 13th C work `Heimskringla' by the Icelandic historian Snorri Sturluson. He writes that the Aesir and Vanir, after a long war, called a truce and sent each other hostages. Hoenir and Mimir were sent to the Vanir, who took a dislike to Hoenir because he was too quiet. For some reason they took this out on Mimir, by cutting off his head and sending it to Odin. Odin then smeared the head with herbs and cast spells over it, which gave the head the power of speech and told Odin many secrets (unfortunately Snorri does not say what secrets).

Apologies to everyone for placing this thread in the wrong forum
 
This thread was languishing in Website Issues - it should get more attention here. (Thanks to mana for pointing this out.)
 
Theres a cool comic book by TONY MILLIONIAR,called sock monkey,they came out starting about 2 years ago, so you'ed have to get the trade pb (from dark horse comic co) its 1st couple of issues had "sock monkey and his buddy mr.crow"take a talking .,"shrunken head "back to his homeland.
 
During the Renaissance it was believed that many of the statues in ancient temples were either animated through magic or able to utter prophecies. I think that the source of this would be the Corpus Hermeticum - I think that mention of animated statues occurs in Asclepius. This has quite wide metaphysical implications and the passages concerning animated statues were expanded into later Hermetic tracts (such as the dialogue between Tat and the king), and were also the subject of works both condoning and condemning magic well into the Renaissence.
Athanasius Kircher put an interesting spin on speaking busts, which combined his knowledge of acoustics with the ancient Greek oracle of overheard words. Essentially statues would be erected in rooms which had spiral cones leading from their mouths into a gallery. When people passed close to the cones, voices would appear to come from the statues mouth in the other rooms - it's quite hard to explain, but a picture is in Jocelyn Goodwin's picture book 'Athanasius Kircher: A Renaissance Man and the Quest for Lost Knowledge'.
 
According to the Sunday Telegraph, archaeologists are excavating a Roman mansion found under a school playing field in Wiltshire. There is a wonderfully preserved mosaic floor, and also the burial of a teenage boy:

"He was buried on his front with his head, which was removed after death, placed by his feet.

'This was a late Roman Burial rite,' said Dr. Corney [Bristol U.] 'However the reasons behind it are far from clear. The current interpretation is that it was for people who had particular powers in life. The Romans believed that the head was the seat of the soul and so they had to chop it off to ensure that those with these special powers didn't come back to haunt those still living.' "
 
Red Dalek said:
This moves off thread slightly, but does anyone know anything about the following:

During the "reign of Madame Guillotine" one of the unfortunate victims had their head removed and transported to a laboratory.
There, the head was placed on a plate of blood and observed. The head's lips were seen to move and the eyes opened.

Was this a sort of "headless chicken running around the farmyard" muscle stimuls, or did the head regain consciousness?
Click to expand...

Someone once told me that, once a person had been guillotined, they would hold the head up to see its own headless body. Due to the (however many) seconds it took for the brain to register that the body was separated from the head, the head would then open its mouth in a gasp of horror, its brain's last memory being of seeing its own decapitated body . . .

Carole
 
Binary

Jonny B said:
"To obtain the great wisdom for which he is so famous, Odin, in the morn of time, visited Mimir's (Memor memroy) spring, "The fountain of all wit and wisdom," i whose liquid depths even the future was clearly mirrored, and besought the old man who guarded it to let him have a draught. But Mimir, who well knew the value of such a favour (for his spring was considered the source or headwater of memory), refused the boon unless Odin would consent to give one of his eyes in exchange.

The god did not hesitate, so highly did he prize the darught, but immediately plcuked out one of his eyes, which Mmir kept in pledge, sinking it deep down into his fountain, where it shone with mild lustre, leaving Odin with but one eye, which is considered emblemayic of the sun."

-The Norsemen, H A Guerber, page 30

The same book also refers to Mimir as a Sea Giant, and as representing the great eastern sea from which all things came, but has no references to his head being kept anywhere other than firmly attached to his body.
Click to expand...

Which means Earth used to have two suns, but Jupiter lost its luster and the great red spot marks the collision that put it out.

LOL
 
Kali's Belt

Didn't the Knights Templar supposed consult or worship a "...head of Baphomet..." which some thought might be the head of Jesus, while others thought it might be a kind of effigy depicting, what else, Satan?

My take on decapitation: It would be like losing one's entire body, and the blood would drain fast from the brain. If your consciousness is entirely or mostly in the brain, as we think -- the Romans thought it was in their hearts, remember -- and if you could hack the pain and not instantly go into shock, then it's possible that you'd retain use of your remaining senses, and might even retain some control of your facial muscles.

There is some pretty good evidence of people picking up heads during the Reign of Terror and seeing them speaking, or trying to -- no breath, of course. Lip readers would have been handy.
 
Re: Kali's Belt

FraterLibre said:
Didn't the Knights Templar supposed consult or worship a "...head of Baphomet..." which some thought might be the head of Jesus, while others thought it might be a kind of effigy depicting, what else, Satan?
Click to expand...

This was supposed to be the head of John the Baptist (who was of course beheaded). Interestingly there is also atown in 'templar' France that reveres the (supposed) head of Mary Magdeleine but I don't think it tells the future;)
 
Heads Jesus Wins

93,

Just ploughed through a new book on the Magdalene that speculates about the head of John the Baptist being taken by Salome and brought to Jesus.
The implication being that the head contains the spirit of John and is used like the Templar Baphomet Egregore, indeed it may be the same head. Jesus's final words on the cross are actually 'John, why have you forsaken me?'
That's the very shorthand version.
Fabulous heresy, regardless of it's veracity.
What I'm trying to find out is if the magickal use of severed heads
is documented as occuring in the region or in Egypt. The closest I can find is the Nganga pot in Palo Mayombe and some Celtic odds and ends. I'd like to see if there are any closer examples.
Any ideas?

93 93 93

Peter Grey
 
Heads of Egypt

Ah, you've stirred some memories here.

I read once (many moons ago) in a history book, about the work done by Dr EA Wallis Budge.

An employee of the British Museum, his work on translating the Egyptian book "the overthrowing of Apep" included Egyptian references (IIRC) to removing heads, as well as hearts, limbs and extremities. Also included was the melting of wax effigies and other concomitant practices, however, so it may not be in-depth enough, or too anecdotal for you.

I'll get his "Legends of the Gods" book down this weekend and have a quick scan through for more toothsome morsels, if i get the chance.
 
There was a documentary made a couple of years back looking at archaeological finds at Nazca, a number of trophy heads had been unearthed, also some of the drawings on the plain feature what the archaeologists interpreted as being trophy heads, though I might not have guessed if they hadn't of told me.
 
BlackRiverFalls said:
There was a documentary made a couple of years back looking at archaeological finds at Nazca, a number of trophy heads had been unearthed, also some of the drawings on the plain feature what the archaeologists interpreted as being trophy heads, though I might not have guessed if they hadn't of told me.
Click to expand...

If they were the same finds and IIRC, several of these trophy heads were contorted in an odd fashion, physically changeing the shape of the skull, quite often making them pointed. I can only assume such reshapings were begun at a young age on victims who were either a seperate caste (perhaps the offspring of prisoners/slaves), or especially selected for ritual purposes. I definitely recall such finds being in that locale.

EDIT: I have no idea whether the site is any good but this backs my recollection (3/4 of the way down):

... Furthering the link with Giza is the city of Cahuachi, just south of the lines. Today it is almost indistinguishable from the desert surrounding it, yet it covers 370 acres and contains plazas, terraces and some 40 structures. There are six pyramids - the largest of which is 30 metres high.

It appears that Cahuachi was a ceremonial centre, with few people actually living there. Puzzling mortuary practices occurred at Cahuachi. Ninety percent of the skulls found have the distinctive cabeza larga (long head) type of deformation.

This was achieved by wrapping the heads of newborn babies with leather or wood, causing their skulls to grow into extraordinary shapes. Many of the dismembered skulls have also had round holes cut into their foreheads, a practice known as trepanning.

Further clues of an advanced society can be found nearby. The Nazca Indians may have been living in a barren area, but they managed to cope quite well. They created a system of underground channels to bring them water from kilometres away, and some of their hydraulic schemes are still in working order.

As time passes by, more and more Nazcan mysteries are being brought to light, with few (if any) being solved. http://www.survive2012.com/nazcalines4.html
Click to expand...
 
93,

Thanks TMS, I've had a look at the overthrow of Apep at the ever useful sacred-texts.com but any more fragments would be appreciated, as I haven't got Budge's 'Legends of the Gods'.

93 93 93

Peter Grey
 
legends of the Gods tidbit

Dug out my copy over the weekend, and after an hour or so of (semi) fruitless searching, I reached “The legend of Horus of Edfu and the Winged Disk”.

This legend is found on the walls of the Temple of Horus in Edfu, South- Central Egypt, just West of the Nile.

The legend goes into the battles fought between various (pre-historic and therefore deified) kings of ancient Egypt. Budge notes that much of the rationale of the commentary had become corrupted over time by generational re-telling of these myths and was then exacerbated by the Egyptian wont of trying to piece together chronological tales into the correct order.

Nonetheless for all the potential flaws, the legend that comes down to us is interesting for (IMO) the following reasons:

It revolves around a series of battles that Horus was engaged in from the South of the country moving northwards.

His father, by this time a weak and feeble Ra, commands Horus to set out without delay and slay the rebel forces. Horus achieves this by the following means “And Heru-Behutet (Horus was given this name by Thoth) flew up into the horizon in the form of the great Winged Disk, for which reason he is called "Great god, lord of heaven”.

Various smiting then ensued and the rebels and fiends are duly despatched. At this stage “blacksmiths” on the side of Heru-Behutet are introduced into the story, and did a fair amount of smoting themselves. Budge notes that indigenous Egyptians used flint and wood weapons at this stage, thus these blacksmiths, workers of metal, aside from having a heavy advantage on the technology front, were also conquerors and victorious immigrants to the country of Egypt. Worth further investigation as to their origins I have often thought.

This happens a number of times further up the river, after the forces opposed to Ra, Thoth and Horus transform themselves into Hippapotumi and crocodiles. Again, they hadn’t foresaw the problems associated with a Great winged disk and metal weapons and hundreds more of these fiends are killed, with the entrails offered to Ra and the blacksmiths that enabled this victory.

Then comes the area I hope you will be most interested in, Luciferrocale:

At Pa-Rerehu (named derived from “two combatants” or “two men”), Horus and Set fight. Set is using such foul language that Horus ever after called him “Nehaha-her” (Stinking face). I’ll let the hieroglyphs do the talking for the next portion:

“And Ra said unto Thoth, “This fiend Nehaha-hra uttereth words at the top of his voice because of the things which Heru-Behutet hath done unto him” and Thoth said unto Ra “cries of this kind shall be called Nehaha-hra unto this day”. And Heru-Behutet did battle with the enemy for a period of time, and he hurled his iron lance at him, and he threw him down on the ground in this region, which is called Pa-Rerehtu unto this day. Then Heru-Behutet came and brought the enemy with him, and his spear was in his neck, and his chain was around his arms, and the weapon of Horus had fallen on his mouth and had closed it; and he went before his father Ra, who said “Horus, thou winged disk, twice great is the deed of valour which thou hast done, and thou hast cleansed this district”. And Ra said unto Thoth, “The palace of Heru-Behutet shall be called “Lord of the district which has been cleansed” because of this”. And Ra said unto Thoth, “Let the enemies and Set be given over to Isis and her son Horus, and let them work all their hearts desire upon them”. And she and her son Horus set themselves in position with their spears in him. Then Horus the son of Isis cut off the head of Set, and the heads of his fiends in the presence of father Ra and of the company of the great gods, and he dragged him by his feet through his district with the spear driven through his head and back”.

As I mentioned in my previous post, this evidence is an aside at best. I have always inferred that the decapitation is an ultimate act of sacrilege and power. The similarities between Set being dragged by his heels through the district and Achilles dragging Hector’s corpse around the walls of Troy also struck me when I read this passage again, both cases of further desecration of the body.

It is mentioned that many secret names were given to the priests of Horus after these battles, so it may be logical to assume that the heads, hearts or other parts of the slain were used in Egyptian magical ceremony. There is no mention of this (as there is no mention of specific Egyptian magical practice anywhere), the mystery cults have guarded their secrets too well.


As a last comment, the Interweb (God bless it and keep it) has several sites that call Horus’ temple at Edfu a design based on the modern computer CPU.

A topic for another thread perhaps?

PS: Thanks for Sacred texts web-site, hadn’t seen it before but will definitely be in my favourites column from now on.

TMS
 
There is a (pre-)Celtic legend of the Head of Bran the Blessed. IIRC Bran had his head cut off at his request as he had been poisoned in the ankle, the cauldren of healing could not cure him and he was near to death. His still animate head was then taken on a tour of Britain for many years entertaining the people with singing and great revellry until it was finally laid to rest - facing France in order to protect Britain - at what is now the Tower of London. Incidentaly Bran means Raven and his legend lives on in the fear that if the Ravens leave the Tower of London Britain will be invaded.
 
over here Sun, on the head

93,

Read through that one yesterday.
The winged disk part reminded me of Kenneth Anger's ufo in Scorpio Rising. No surprises there as Heru Behutet is probably Hadit in Liber Al. But I digress.
Thanks PI, I knew the Bran stuff.
Would be good to find a head link in the region, just occured to me that I should probably try checking the Graeco Egyptian Magickal Papyrus. Kicking myself for not picking that up earlier from the headless/bornless rite.

93 93 93

Peter Grey
 
Not To Mention, Friar Roger Bacon's Oracular Brazen Head

Prehistory and Roman Times
The 'Celts' in Britain do seem to have been big on oracular heads and 'cauldrons of wisdom.' I have seen photos of a reconstruced stone altar containing both carvings of heads and niches for skulls, though that was French, if I recall.

They Even Dug Cromwell's Head Up Again For The Occasion
And don't forget, heads on spikes were a popular decoration on British public buildings, until at least the end of the 17th Century. And that, well into the 18th, the ears of Native Americans were considered proof of bounty in the American Colonies.

So, were the 'Celts' head hunting cannibals?

A True Story (Honest)
I was working on an Iron Age site, up in the North of Scotland, a couple of decades ago, and helping to excavate the causewayed entrance. I remarked to the assistant site director that it was possible to imagine the original wooden palisades and heads stuck on spikes, along the top, to warn off others. She looked at me a bit dubious, to be sure.

Anyway, there I was trowelling away at the old ground surface, composed of a compacted mixture of small stones and clay, just in front of roughly where the entrance gate would have been, when I discovered a fragment of bone, stamped in with the rest.

Small though it was, it was big enough to see that it had probably once been part of a human cranium.

It's a funny old World, eh? ;)
 
Re: over here Sun, on the head

luciferrofocale said:
Would be good to find a head link in the region, just occured to me that I should probably try checking the Graeco Egyptian Magickal Papyrus. Kicking myself for not picking that up earlier from the headless/bornless rite.
Click to expand...

Crowley's favourite, eh? Well, why not...

Bit of a jump in logic from Head severing to invocation of the Holy Gaurdian Angel, but i have a passing strange feeling it could be appropriate for you.

I also suppose that it does link quite nicely into *purported* ancient Egyptian magical utterances.

The Great Beast would be proud, I'm sure, although i must say all the GD / A.A. impedimenta has interested me from an academic angle, rather than as any rallying call to praxis of a more tangible nature.
 
93,

Well, praxis makes perfect..

G.D, AA and OTO are largely academic. Lots of squabbling over lineages and too little of the sabbatic wine in their current manifestations.

Naturally I do take logic jumps. But at least I can still recognise them as such. Not sure quite where this one is taking me.

Other than the bornless rite I am not familiar with the graeco egyptian texts, so I guess it's time for some more books..

93 93 93

Peter Grey
 
Well, praxis makes perfect..
Click to expand...
haha! Quite so.
G.D, AA and OTO are largely academic. Lots of squabbling over lineages and too little of the sabbatic wine in their current manifestations.
Click to expand...
That's been one of my enduring hesitations. Their visitations seem less than revelations, more like equivocations.
Naturally I do take logic jumps. But at least I can still recognise them as such. Not sure quite where this one is taking me.
Click to expand...
I suspect you will enjoy the journey as much as the destination...
Other than the bornless rite I am not familiar with the graeco egyptian texts, so I guess it's time for some more books..
Click to expand...
I won't insult you with The Papyrus of Ani.However - Worth a re-read in any case to attune the mindset you will require to approach the experience properly.
I can't recommend Budge's other works highly enough. Indeed, this was an area in which my interest had waned, to rekindle this attraction has been most refreshing - my thanks.
I've checked the web and much of the "Egyptian Magic" books that cite lineage from the man himself appear to be more self-help tomes for the dead and gone generation, but armed with my trusty library card i'm heading into the centre of town this weekend to imbibe spirits, hopefully closer to the source. If i find anything that i think will interest you i shall do my best to post at some stage next week.

TMS
 
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