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Terminal Lucidity

My two sisters are nurses of decades experience. One exclusively paediatric and the other with several years in it too.

They both tell tales of terminally ill children, at the very end, holding on for something. A favourite relative, someone to arrive, some event gives them a reason to linger. Nurses get very good at recognising these things. They would often advise immediate family to be ready for whatever the expected arrival is as they will often feel allowed to go at that point. It isn't as uniform as that but it has been observed so often that they become accustomed to the signals. The child struggles on, often in semi or unconscious states until the expected event occurs.

A favourite grandparent, aunty or other visit, even a pet or favourite thing can be the marker. It is terribly sad and when the person or event turns up, terminal lucidity is not that common in the reports they have relayed, often the child will relax,
appear more comfortable and then slip away.
 
PeteS said:
After my mother died, I did expect to see her funnily enough, simply because she was possessive in the extreme. No sign though, which is probably just as well.
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I actually meant the seeing of relatives who've passed by the person who is dying. When they think someone has come to 'fetch' them,
 
catseye said:
I actually meant the seeing of relatives who've passed by the person who is dying. When they think someone has come to 'fetch' them,
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Sometimes dying people will appear to see friends or relatives who have died without the dying person being told.

A dying person might even 'see' someone dear who has died before the rest of their family know.
This happened in my family. I have described it detail on another thread.

A relation was taken ill and near death when she 'saw' a man approach and seem to want her to go with him. She refused and he left.

When she described him to her husband it sounded like his cousin who had died shortly before, in the same hospital. Word had only just got around as it had been a sudden collapse and death.
 
Trevp666 said:
Beats me.
Beats us all.
My brother seems to have some recollection of something from years ago when Dad was accused of having a dalliance with some 'sort', once.
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That's a sound hypothesis. I've known some terminal patients who had intermittent flashes of lucidity, except for the fact they seemed to be lucidly oriented to some point or situation in the distant past.
 
The funniest thing was though that Dad seemed absolutely clear-as-a-bell about the workmen on the church next door.
Never been religious. Never had any doings with a church, or lived near one.
 
EnolaGaia said:
That's a sound hypothesis. I've known some terminal patients who had intermittent flashes of lucidity, except for the fact they seemed to be lucidly oriented to some point or situation in the distant past.
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Ms P has looked after many, many, elderly people, some with dementia, who seem to be able to recollect episodes from their early days but unable to remember any recent event whatsoever, even that they had eaten their breakfast or whatever. It's almost as though their memory is gradually being wiped in reverse.
 
Trevp666 said:
Beats me.
Beats us all.
My brother seems to have some recollection of something from years ago when Dad was accused of having a dalliance with some 'sort', once.
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I wonder if she'd been mixing up real life with episodes of 'Last of the Summer Wine'? Wasn't it Howard always off with Pearl? Or was Pearl the wife?
 
catseye said:
I wonder if she'd been mixing up real life with episodes of 'Last of the Summer Wine'? Wasn't it Howard always off with Pearl? Or was Pearl the wife?
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No idea. And you've managed to give my Dad a sex-change, lol.
 
Perhaps confess one thing a day, leading up to Christmas? Like a kind of Confessional Advent Calendar?
 
I've listened to the BBC Sounds episode that was mentioned, and I'm surprised they didn't talk about Near Death Experiences (NDE's).

At a later point in the episode a doctor said they had monitored the brain activity of patients who were actively dying. Very near the end of life a great proportion of patients showed remarkable changes in their brain activity, as if they were fully conscious. They speculated how this may be connected to terminal lucidity, however I just immediately thought of NDE's, and the vibrant visions/experiences that are typically reported.
 
Cloudbusting said:
I've listened to the BBC Sounds episode that was mentioned, and I'm surprised they didn't talk about Near Death Experiences (NDE's).

At a later point in the episode a doctor said they had monitored the brain activity of patients who were actively dying. Very near the end of life a great proportion of patients showed remarkable changes in their brain activity, as if they were fully conscious. They speculated how this may be connected to terminal lucidity, however I just immediately thought of NDE's, and the vibrant visions/experiences that are typically reported.
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Very interesting that point about brain activity. I wonder whether it's the brain desperately trying to hang on to life.
 
PeteS said:
Very interesting that point about brain activity. I wonder whether it's the brain desperately trying to hang on to life.
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I prefer to think about it as the last act of mercy - the brain easing our passage into whatever comes next.* Aldous Huxley departed this life tripping on LSD, but maybe we all experience a final trip. Isn't there evidence that a dying human produces DMT?

* There can't possibly be an evolutionary advantage to this, so - if I'm right - it's something of a mystery how this mechanism came about.
 
My mum was on end of life support but then (unexpectedly to us) she 'perked' up and could communicate with us.

It allowed my brother and myself to tell her that we loved her one more time. Perhaps it allowed her to understand that she was near the end as they gave her medication so that she wasn't stressed about it.

I'm not sure what a biological basis for terminal lucidity would be, but it does seem to allow people a little time to prepare.
 
Krepostnoi said:
I prefer to think about it as the last act of mercy - the brain easing our passage into whatever comes next.* Aldous Huxley departed this life tripping on LSD, but maybe we all experience a final trip. Isn't there evidence that a dying human produces DMT?

* There can't possibly be an evolutionary advantage to this, so - if I'm right - it's something of a mystery how this mechanism came about.
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I find materialist arguments for end-of-life lucidity/NDE etc. very poor (coping mechanism in a dying brain etc.) precisely because they serve no purpose from an evolutionary perspective, they have a very, very poor chance of being passed on to offspring, and have no evolutionary/survival benefit. There is something else going on here, not necessarily explainable from a purely biological perspective.
 
Totally agree with what people are saying above. I have also wondered about the biological necessity for this and when I've read possible explanations, they make no sense. I'd be more inclined to believe NDE's are merely a side effect of a dying brain, however I'm really not convinced of that. It really makes me wonder...
 
Cloudbusting said:
I've listened to the BBC Sounds episode that was mentioned, and I'm surprised they didn't talk about Near Death Experiences (NDE's).
Click to expand...

I don't see any reason to closely link terminal lucidity with NDEs. It makes more sense to me to consider these as two distinct situational / experiential phenomena which may result from similar (if not the same ... ) actions in the underlying neural / cognitive processes.

Classic NDEs (of multiple varieties) are typically reported in relation to unexpected / sudden imminent (foreseen) or clinical (somatic) death. They are usually framed as a patient's conscious experience of an unusual state or activity (total life recall; OOBE; etc.).

In contrast, terminal lucidity is usually framed as an observable or ascribed shift into a more coherent state of consciousness / behavior that the patient displays but doesn't seem to notice or absorb as a personal experience.

My impression of this difference from the patient's perspective is analogous to the following difference in the patient's response to possible sleep:

NDE Equivalent: "Wow, I just had the strangest dream!"
(I.e., an experience confessed as remembered)

Terminal Lucidity: "Oh, hi ... What's happened? I must have dozed off ..."
(I.e., recovery after a discontinuity in conscious experience / memory)

Cloudbusting said:
At a later point in the episode a doctor said they had monitored the brain activity of patients who were actively dying. Very near the end of life a great proportion of patients showed remarkable changes in their brain activity, as if they were fully conscious. They speculated how this may be connected to terminal lucidity ...
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It would be interesting to know whether the data indicated either (a) a return (if only approximately) to previous ('normal') brain activity or (b) a shift to a state of consciousness-supporting brain activity unlike prior 'normalcy'.

In any case ...

I wonder whether terminal lucidity represents a release or reversal of consciousness-inhibiting states or processes that were enacted (e.g., somatically) as emergency responses to the longer-term deterioration in the patient's health status. In other words, could it be the case the patient's body imposed operational 'martial law' in response to somatic duress - leaving higher cognitive / mental processes impaired - and the patient survived long enough that these imposed measures couldn't be sustained and once released reverted the patient to something more like normalcy for however long it then took for the inevitable to occur?
 
EnolaGaia said:
I don't see any reason to closely link terminal lucidity with NDEs. It makes more sense to me to consider these as two distinct situational / experiential phenomena which may result from similar (if not the same ... ) actions in the underlying neural / cognitive processes.

Classic NDEs (of multiple varieties) are typically reported in relation to unexpected / sudden imminent (foreseen) or clinical (somatic) death. They are usually framed as a patient's conscious experience of an unusual state or activity (total life recall; OOBE; etc.).

In contrast, terminal lucidity is usually framed as an observable or ascribed shift into a more coherent state of consciousness / behavior that the patient displays but doesn't seem to notice or absorb as a personal experience.

My impression of this difference from the patient's perspective is analogous to the following difference in the patient's response to possible sleep:

NDE Equivalent: "Wow, I just had the strangest dream!"
(I.e., an experience confessed as remembered)

Terminal Lucidity: "Oh, hi ... What's happened? I must have dozed off ..."
(I.e., recovery after a discontinuity in conscious experience / memory)



It would be interesting to know whether the data indicated either (a) a return (if only approximately) to previous ('normal') brain activity or (b) a shift to a state of consciousness-supporting brain activity unlike prior 'normalcy'.

In any case ...

I wonder whether terminal lucidity represents a release or reversal of consciousness-inhibiting states or processes that were enacted (e.g., somatically) as emergency responses to the longer-term deterioration in the patient's health status. In other words, could it be the case the patient's body imposed operational 'martial law' in response to somatic duress - leaving higher cognitive / mental processes impaired - and the patient survived long enough that these imposed measures couldn't be sustained and once released reverted the patient to something more like normalcy for however long it then took for the inevitable to occur?
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I only mentioned NDE's due to the research regarding brain activity, as you've said NDE's appear to be of a different nature to terminal lucidity. I also agree that it would be very interesting to know more about the data around that research and how the brain activity observed progressed/changed. If anyone can track it down, please post a link to it on this thread!

For me the most intriguing aspect of all of this is what it all means about the concept of a 'soul'. For example, patients who undergo brain trauma will sometimes experience quite drastic personality changes which (for me) pours some doubt on the concept of the soul. However, it really depends what you consider a soul to be. I imagine that many would argue on a theological level that it's much much more profound than your personality and behavioural traits etc. I'm sure there was some speculation on that podcast that terminal lucidity may prove that the brain is only the receiver of a signal that effectively makes a person who they are. Really intriguing, although it still doesn't make sense on a biological level if someone has experienced a bad brain injury or trauma. The only thing I'm certain of is how little we really understand about how the human brain works!
 
Krepostnoi said:
I prefer to think about it as the last act of mercy - the brain easing our passage into whatever comes next.* Aldous Huxley departed this life tripping on LSD, but maybe we all experience a final trip. Isn't there evidence that a dying human produces DMT?

* There can't possibly be an evolutionary advantage to this, so - if I'm right - it's something of a mystery how this mechanism came about.
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A biological event doesn't have to create an evolutionary advantage to persist - it just has to fail to produce an evolutionary disadvantage. In the case of an event that occurs just prior to death, it produces neither, and would be passed on genetically randomly..
 
Lb8535 said:
A biological event doesn't have to create an evolutionary advantage to persist - it just has to fail to produce an evolutionary disadvantage. In the case of an event that occurs just prior to death, it produces neither, and would be passed on genetically randomly..
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Except... it is just prior to a death and therefore won't be passed on at all.
 
Cloudbusting said:
I only mentioned NDE's due to the research regarding brain activity, as you've said NDE's appear to be of a different nature to terminal lucidity. I also agree that it would be very interesting to know more about the data around that research and how the brain activity observed progressed/changed. If anyone can track it down, please post a link to it on this thread!

For me the most intriguing aspect of all of this is what it all means about the concept of a 'soul'. For example, patients who undergo brain trauma will sometimes experience quite drastic personality changes which (for me) pours some doubt on the concept of the soul. However, it really depends what you consider a soul to be. I imagine that many would argue on a theological level that it's much much more profound than your personality and behavioural traits etc. I'm sure there was some speculation on that podcast that terminal lucidity may prove that the brain is only the receiver of a signal that effectively makes a person who they are. Really intriguing, although it still doesn't make sense on a biological level if someone has experienced a bad brain injury or trauma. The only thing I'm certain of is how little we really understand about how the human brain works!
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If the brain is the receiver for external consciousness, a damaged brain could result in distortion of the "signal".
 
SimonBurchell said:
Except... it is just prior to a death and therefore won't be passed on at all.
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If we follow the reasoning that this is a biological event that kicks in when certain conditions are present, then it's coded somewhere and is probably capable of being inherited in the genes. But it in no way affects the ability to reproduce so if it's there it gets passed on. If not it doesn't.
 
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