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Terror Alerts

Hmm, I do suspect you give them too much credit. I'm quite sure MI5 as as many incompetents working for it as any comparably-sized organisation - ie quite a lot.
 
Seventh_Pilot said:
Then again these occurrences, and I’m broadly speaking, can make sense if we stop accepting what the mainstream media and authorities tell us they mean and try to think for ourselves. If that means we delve into conspiracy theories then so be it.
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That all really depends on whether any conspiracies are at all informed about their chosen subject. More often than not, that doesn't seem to be the case, so they're not always the viable alternative.
 
You know Jerry for someone who on first appearance seems so anti conspiracy you spend an awful lot of time writing comments in the conspiracy section. What drives a person like you?
 
Seventh_Pilot said:
You know Jerry for someone who on first appearance seems so anti conspiracy you spend an awful lot of time writing comments in the conspiracy section. What drives a person like you?
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I don't think reducing the argument down to ad hominems really pushes it forward....

:no-no:
 
Could you please explain ad hominems to me, I went to comprehensive. Does that mean anything I say should be dismissed as beneath the argument?
 
Seventh_Pilot said:
You know Jerry for someone who on first appearance seems so anti conspiracy you spend an awful lot of time writing comments in the conspiracy section. What drives a person like you?
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Strong tea.
 
"Granted, unsavoury political views should not result in armed police kicking in the door at 5 in the morning. But I think it is unlikely that the brothers were innocent wee things who were targeted entirely randomly."

Well, that's your guess not backed up by any facts. But in any case, it doesn't make it any better does it? And you cannot really suggesting that involvement with political factions disliked by the government is some sort of justification. This harks back to the days when being Irish was considered a crime in itself in some quarters and 'justified' a level of abuse.

Personally I'd say we especially need to try to stop the government from raiding people it doesn't like without justification, but that's just my old-fashined view. :D
 
"Granted, unsavoury political views should not result in armed police kicking in the door at 5 in the morning. But I think it is unlikely that the brothers were innocent wee things who were targeted entirely randomly."

Well, that's your guess not backed up by any facts. But in any case, it doesn't make it any better does it? And you cannot really suggesting that involvement with political factions disliked by the government is some sort of justification. This harks back to the days when being Irish was considered a crime in itself in some quarters and 'justified' a level of abuse.

Personally I'd say we especially need to try to stop the government from raiding people it doesn't like without justification, but that's just my old-fashined view.
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Hang on, hang on, hang on.

We're not just talking about people the government "doesn't like".

Islamic terrorists are not CND activists or environmental campaigners who are generally well meaning people who are at best a nuisance to governments. They are fundamentalist nutters who think it is perfectly OK to murder dozens of commuters in their pursuit of a society where, to quote Christopher Hitchens, they can throw acid in the faces of unveiled women.

Now, if the police received specific intelligence that people known to hold extremist views of this nature have a bomb, or part of a bomb, in their house, I think that they would be failing in their duty if they did *not* raid the property.

What was wrong in this case was the OTT way it was done and the fact that one of the brothers was shot.

So in summary, no I am not saying that involvement with a extremist political faction should in itself merit a police raid. Specific intelligence that a serious crime is about to be committed may very well merit a raid, and I should imagine that one of the considerations would be whether the individuals under suspicion were known to sympathise with groups which go about committing such crimes.

That isn't racism or Islamophobia. It's logic.
 
"We're not just talking about people the government "doesn't like".
Islamic terrorists are not CND activists or environmental campaigners who are generally well meaning people who are at best a nuisance to governments. "

But we're not talking about Islamic terrorists or anything like it. We're talking about a couple of Muslim blokes.

You suggested that they were not "innocent wee things" or "total innocents inexplicably caught up in a mindless Islamophobic police action". Unless you have some evidence to the contrary, that's exactly that what they are, and they did not deserve to be raided fo shot any more than anyone else. The only thing the police seemed to have against them is their religion.

Yes, the police may need to carry out raids. But any suggestion that it's not so bad being shot and having your house ripped up if your a fundamentalist Muslim is abhorrent.
 
It seems the story about the two being linked with the earlier demo came from the Evening Standard, which speaks volumes ;)
 
I have an idea. If you are a muslim, get your mate to call the police and tip them off. Then get raided and eventually ask for £500000 compensation.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, totally hate the country and the values of the country you live in and make sure no one can miss it by wearing a beard and a dress.

Can't loose really...
 
Not the most reasoned and informed post I've ever read here, I must say... :roll:
 
Unless you have some evidence to the contrary, that's exactly that what they are, and they did not deserve to be raided fo shot any more than anyone else. The only thing the police seemed to have against them is their religion.

Yes, the police may need to carry out raids. But any suggestion that it's not so bad being shot and having your house ripped up if your a fundamentalist Muslim is abhorrent.
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Sigh. Read my post again:

So in summary, no I am not saying that involvement with a extremist political faction should in itself merit a police raid.
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How much clearer can I be? Do you really think that the police spent vast amounts of time and money raiding a random house because it contained Muslims? They had information that the people in the house were building a bomb. Yes, the information appears to have been incorrect. But that was the reason for the raid - not the religion of the people in the house.

That said, I expect that the police/intelligence services probably take reports of bomb-making by fundamentalist Muslims more seriously than if they were, say, Methodists or Buddhists. Given events of recent years, this also seems logical. Are you seriously suggesting otherwise?
 
Not the most reasoned and informed post I've ever read here, I must say...
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you should be used to all this by now Jerry.

There does seem to be a few more mistakes with armed police happening however of late.

Unless the media are just scare mongering again.
 
techybloke666 said:
Not the most reasoned and informed post I've ever read here, I must say...
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you should be used to all this by now Jerry.

There does seem to be a few more mistakes with armed police happening however of late.

Unless the media are just scare mongering again.
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That may be because there are more occasions to send out armed police, as well as that those armed police have had the dangers of self detonating suspects drilled into them.

With the de Menenez killing there seems to have been a serious breakdown in the chain of command, coupled with some seriously bad training faults. With the Forest Gate shooting I genuinely believe that the armed officer was hyped up to the max and super jumpy.
 
Well, I dunno. The armed police here in London have a history of being a bit 'jumpy'. This latest case doesn't really seem like anything new as far as that's concerned. There's been a variety of shootings over the years, and it seems that more often than not they get things wrong. I think the danger may be that the police aren't being trained well enough to evaluate situations before they resort to actually firing their guns. I don't like the idea of the police having guns, and so it isn't all that reassuring when they seem to keep making mistakes when they have them.
 
Jerry_B said:
Well, I dunno. The armed police here in London have a history of being a bit 'jumpy'. This latest case doesn't really seem like anything new as far as that's concerned. There's been a variety of shootings over the years, and it seems that more often than not they get things wrong. I think the danger may be that the police aren't being trained well enough to evaluate situations before they resort to actually firing their guns. I don't like the idea of the police having guns, and so it isn't all that reassuring when they seem to keep making mistakes when they have them.
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Fair enough. One version of the de Menenez shooting, I heard on BBC Radio4. suggested that once the police ´gunsels´ had been given instructions to shoot on sight, they didn´t have enough autonomy to decide for themselves if the situation warranted it. Down the tube station, with no radio contact back to HQ, they were left with the order, "Shoot to kill."

A bloody awful state of affairs, if true.

Apparently, Israeli Anti-Suicide Bomber Squads, are taught to double check for signs of bombs and trigger mechanisms on the suspects first (where possible) and to shoot on their own cognisance. If that´s all true, then it´s hard to believe that the Met. don´t train up their men to the same level of skill.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
the police ´gunsels´
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*a Dashell Hammett fan writes*

Gunsel is actually a bit of prison slang refering to the younger 'bitch' of an older inmate, which Hammett slipped into Maltese Falcon under the noses of the censors who believed, as most people subsequently have, that it was street slang for a gangster or gunslinger.

It explains why Wilmer the young kid who works for Gutman is so riled by being refered to constantly by Spade as a gunsel.

Not sure if you were aware of this, so not sure which meaning you wanted to use to refer to the armed constabulary..... ;)
 
Heckler20 said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
the police ´gunsels´
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*a Dashell Hammett fan writes*

Gunsel is actually a bit of prison slang refering to the younger 'bitch' of an older inmate, which Hammett slipped into Maltese Falcon under the noses of the censors who believed, as most people subsequently have, that it was street slang for a gangster or gunslinger.

It explains why Wilmer the young kid who works for Gutman is so riled by being refered to constantly by Spade as a gunsel.

Not sure if you were aware of this, so not sure which meaning you wanted to use to refer to the armed constabulary..... ;)
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Heaven forbid! And risky, too...

Young punk with a gun and an itchy trigger finger, I thought. So, close enough.
 
With the Forest Gate shooting I genuinely believe that the armed officer was hyped up to the max and super jumpy.
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I agree. My guess would be that the guy who was shot perhaps jumped out of a doorway or otherwise suddenly appeared, the officer got a fright and pulled the trigger.
 
Which, if true, makes it sound as if their training is not really up to scratch.
 
As far as the police's actions are concerned, my gut feeling is that, once they had decided the evidence of terrorist activity was credible, everything that followed was inevitable, raid, shooting and all.

Fortunately, no permanent physical harm (and I stress the word "physical") has been done - the shot man appears to be on the mend, the house will be restored and compensation will no doubt be paid.

My real worry is that someone has been deliberately feeding the police false intelligence, with the aim of ruining the relationship between them and the local communities, so that eventually, the Met will hesitate before acting on information, for fear of causing offence.

Seriously, we're all scoffing at the police's supposed incompetence, but if they receive a tip-off about possible terrorist activity, what are they supposed to do - knock on the front door and ask to make an appointment to see the bomb laboratory at a time convenient to all parties?
 
Peripart said:
My real worry is that someone has been deliberately feeding the police false intelligence, with the aim of ruining the relationship between them and the local communities, so that eventually, the Met will hesitate before acting on information, for fear of causing offence.
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i've had this suspicion for a while. this event will likely have a negative effect on the muslim community and may drive a small number towards extremism. if any extremist or terrorist groups weren't already aware of the potential for deliberately misleading intelligence services they will be now.
 
The idea that they are being fed false leads is totally consistent with the Islamic tradition of "al-Taqiyya", the disguising of ones real intententions. This is the only time and position in which a muslim is allowed to lie with Allah's blessing.

So yes I agree that this is probably the cause of the misleading intelligence, someone is feeding the police BS with the intention of causing a rift between the Ummah and the police. As for losing the trust of the community, well did they ever really have it in the first place?
 
Peripart said:
...

Seriously, we're all scoffing at the police's supposed incompetence, but if they receive a tip-off about possible terrorist activity, what are they supposed to do - knock on the front door and ask to make an appointment to see the bomb laboratory at a time convenient to all parties?
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Very few Posters have been arguing that such raids shouldn't be made.

They have been Posting about the mistakes. Too Many.

If special armed Police Squads, with a licence to kill, are going to be used in Britain, then they must be trained and equipped to meet minimium safety requirements. They are going amongst the Public, people they are supposedly there to protect. Kill too many, smash their way through too many of the wrong houses and they'll be doing the real Terrorists' job for them.

There's a sense of de ja vu about all this. Northern Ireland faced similiar problems.

It's not a case of saying the police should sit on their hands. Things could and should be done much better. Training, chain of command, and communications, must all be improved. Innocent lives and the ability to act effectively against any real threat depend upon it.
 
nohopesnodreams said:
The idea that they are being fed false leads is totally consistent with the Islamic tradition of "al-Taqiyya", the disguising of ones real intententions. This is the only time and position in which a muslim is allowed to lie with Allah's blessing.

So yes I agree that this is probably the cause of the misleading intelligence, someone is feeding the police BS with the intention of causing a rift between the Ummah and the police. As for losing the trust of the community, well did they ever really have it in the first place?
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nohopesnodreams ('Pentagon 911 Conspiracy?' Thread) said:
...

You should still keep in mind that these guys are not allowed to lie, it would be totally unacceptable to their peers, they are EXTREMELY religious.

...
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So, which of the above 2 statements is true? :rofl:
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
If special armed Police Squads, with a licence to kill, are going to be used in Britain, then they must be trained and equipped to meet minimium safety requirements. They are going amongst the Public, people they are supposedly there to protect. Kill too many, smash their way through too many of the wrong houses and they'll be doing the real Terrorists' job for them.
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IMHO, armed police here in the UK should be a very small select group - even more so that is the case today. I also think they need some very specific training that will enable them to cope with various situations. At the moment, that doesn't seem to be the case. Armed police continue to make mistakes in situations which don't seem to warrant the reactions they've made thus far. The police already seem overly tooled-up as it is, so IMHO it would be best to 'de-militarise' them and make armed police personnel very highly specialised, with better training. The police in London have a rather poor reputation as it is, so I think they need to tidy up their act in various departments. The upper echelons need to be distanced from the politcal process also.
 
My personal suspicion is that the informant was under pressure to produce some intelligence from his handler. After all, he would have been paid for his work and may have felt that passing on something he'd heard 'on the street'. whether he would have anticipated the reaction is another matter.

One must admit though that the police are getting better at this. OK, they've shot an innocent man from a hot country (again :roll: ) but at least:

a) they didn't kill him

b)he was a muslim.

They're getting there, slowly but surely.
 
The police in London have had years of combatting the IRA, but don't seemed to have learnt all that much from it. If they still keep getting things wrong, then that's not really an encouraging sign.
 
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