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The LCROSS Impact & Alleged Artificial Features On The Moon

The Wiki article was a bit light on learned testimony, to say the least. Just some hypothesizing by Carl Sagan, not otherwise noted for his contribution to cognitive psychology.
I'm not so sure that there are that many people who see cities on the Moon and Mars, I certainly don't. Claiming that a pattern of rectilineal features may be ancient ruins is speculation, not cognitive malfunction. Surely if paradoleia was a deeply ingrained evolution-related trait as Sagan suggests, then everybody would see cities.
As for the independence and honesty of the other space agencies, remember that JAXA duplicated feature photo I linked to ? That's supposed to be the Apollo 17 landing site !!
 
Sorry, I meant a bricked wall, outside, in the streetlight. To change "angle of view", the camera would have to change angle, I think you mean perspectivity. Only if the camera were to keep transmitting video within a few feet of the closest eges, and it was illuminated well, would you see 2 dimensional 'depth perceived' views. Maybe they should have shot the footage with binoccular cameras just to end this specculation.
 
Yes, I do mean perspectivity. I used the word 'perspective' in my opening post and nobody noticed. Now I start calling it 'angle of view' everyone says they don't know what I'm on about.
The walls of Cabeus are about 10km high, and there are large craters within it. As the camera gets closer we should be seeing less of their outer walls and more of the inner walls, or more of any vertical surface to which the camera is drawing closer, that vertical surface having been previously not visible because the camera angle was too high above it.
The commentary with the NASA live coverage did not say the visual camera stopped sending pictures when it got really close, the screen just cut to blank or the control room or the IR camera. I suspect this is because the lack of perspective change would be glaringly obvious at that stage.
 
IIRC correctly, the whole point of dropping the thing into a deep crater at the poles was that light never reaches the bottom of these craters, which is why there may be ice down there. Once the camera passed into the shadows of the crater's rim the visual camera would be of no use whatsever. You don't see the shift in perspective because the probe drops into the shadow cast by the crater rim before that becomes apparent. That's why the last few seconds areon IR.
 
I watched the film again and the screen switches from the visual camera while the shepherding stage is still well outside the crater.It comes back on screen in the final few seconds , when a small crater can be made out.Most of the time the IR camera shows even less detail than the visual.
I think there is enough visual film for a change in perspective to be apparent.
 
Seems like the experiment was not that well planned, judging by this post-mortem analysis...

Elusive lunar plume caught on camera after all
17:44 17 October 2009 by Maggie McKee

The first image of lunar material kicked up by the impact of NASA's LCROSS mission has been released, a week after the impact occurred. It was taken by a spacecraft trailing behind the impactor, whose bird's-eye view allowed it to see what has so far eluded the best telescopes on Earth and in Earth orbit.

Researchers are still studying the faint plume of material to try to identify its composition and search for signs of water.

On 9 October, the LCROSS mission used a "shepherding" spacecraft to send the 2-tonne upper stage of its launch rocket into a permanently shadowed crater at the moon's south pole. The shepherding spacecraft observed the impact before crashing into the moon itself 4 minutes later.

Scientists had hoped that dust and vapour ejected by the impact would climb high enough to catch sunlight, allowing telescopes to hunt for traces of lunar water in the ejecta. But no obvious plume of ejected material was seen by any observers on the ground or even by the Hubble Space Telescope.

Now, scientists report that a faint plume of ejecta was imaged by the shepherding spacecraft. "I think we are the only ones that have images," LCROSS principal investigator Anthony Colaprete told New Scientist.

Other instruments, such as LAMP on the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter probe in orbit around the moon, caught spectroscopic signs of a plume at an altitude of about 10 or 15 kilometres above the lunar surface. But the ejected material was too thin there to be visible in an image, says Colaprete.

Ejecta would have had to rise at least 2 km above the surface to be seen from Earth, so the lack of a clear detection from ground-based telescopes suggests most of the ejecta stayed below that altitude.

By contrast, the LCROSS shepherding spacecraft was flying right behind the rocket stage. So it was able to peer down into the crater from overhead and see ejecta that did not get lofted very high. "The ejecta had to only come out and get into the sunlight a little more than a kilometre [high] for us to see it," he says. "It only had to rise half as high."

Before the impact, mission members said they expected the plume to reach no higher than about 10 km. But projectile experiments carried out on Earth weeks before the impact suggested the plume might reach far lower altitudes (see Was moon-smashing mission doomed from the start?).

That's because the rocket stage was hollow, giving it a low density, and the surface of the moon slightly spongy, or compressible, due to pores between particles of soil.

In such a situation, "a lot of the energy [of impact] goes into the crumpling of the low-density object [the rocket] and the compaction of the soil instead of being transferred into vertical velocity," Colaprete told New Scientist. "An analogy is what we do to make ourselves safe in car crashes – when a car crashes into something now, the frame is meant to crumple."

So was using a hollow impactor instead of a dense 'cannonball' design a good idea? Colaprete says that even though hollow impactors may throw up less material at high angles – where it is more easily observed – than dense ones, they create wider, shallower craters. "What we've been able to get with this is a nice, broad area at relatively shallow depth," he told New Scientist.

"That's kind of nice because we're interested in stuff a metre or 70 centimetres deep," he says, pointing out that hydrogen – and thus possibly water – has been detected in the top 70 cm of soil near the lunar poles by neutron spectrometers on spacecraft.

The researchers are analysing the images to try to determine the plume's extent, which will allow them to estimate the total mass that was kicked up in the impact.

And they are scrutinising spectral observations of the impact "flash" – created on the surface at the time of impact, the crater's heat and the ejected material to try to measure the composition of the material at the impact site.

"Our spectrometers worked very well and we got data from beginning to end," says Colaprete. "It's a matter of analysing it now – you have to be careful because you're looking for small [spectral] signatures."

Did they see any sign of water? "Stay tuned," says Colaprete, who aims to have an analysis of the data done by mid-November. :roll:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... ef=dn17996
 
Very interesting. The LAMP instrument uses ultra -violet wavelengths, and detects signs of a 10-15km high plume, yet somehow can't get an image. Strange considering that the LRO is orbiting the Moon only 31 miles up ! How can it detect a plume yet be unable to make an image of it?
So now most of the debris stayed below 2km ? Given that there's no gravity to bring it back down nor wind to dissipate it, that's one helluva damp squib !
Other LRO instruments have been revealing that temperatures in some of the dark craters are as low as minus 238 Celsius, which is nearer absolute zero than it is to melting point . How are they going to extract the water when it's going to need massive energy expenditure to thaw it ?
If NASA are so sure the water is only 70cm under the surface why didn't they send something which landed, stuck a probe in and sent a signal back if it found any? Needn't have cost much and might have yielded some results, which is more than LCROSS has managed so far.
 
Just realised I have omitted responses to Dr B's last post and the last paragraph of Eburacum's.
Dr B:- you don't debate anything with me anyway. You've gone from candidly calling me clueless to sarcastically calling me an expert. you've histrionically claimed I am somehow jeopardising the standards of the wholeFTMB. You've dismissed my arguments without due consideration and at best completely failed to grasp what I'm on about. This isn't debating as much as it's low intensity trolling.

Eburacum :- actually Keith Laney isn't much of a Moon/Mars cities believer either. I think you suspect that I believe there are NASA evidence obfuscation operations on both planets undertaking monstrous works of landscape modification just so their own probes can't pick anyhting up. I feel no need to dignify this with an answer.
I provided a link to something artificial looking on page 4. Dr Baltar linked to an Apollo 15 photo which shows the six sided appearance of the South Massif very well. http://www.keithlaney.net/TheHiddenMiss ... =3&t=12282 This links to Laney's site andshows a six sided artificial looking feature on Mars.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
Eburacum :- actually Keith Laney isn't much of a Moon/Mars cities believer either.
What on Earth (or off it) does he hope to demonstrate, then, with his baseless insinuations? Nothing you have shown so far has shown any evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence.
I think you suspect that I believe there are NASA evidence obfuscation operations on both planets undertaking monstrous works of landscape modification just so their own probes can't pick anything up. I feel no need to dignify this with an answer.
If the 'anomalies' are not detected by the JAXA images or by Chandrayaan, then they either aren't there or they have been removed. If they ever existed but are now removed, someone must have done it- obviously not NASA, that would be ridiculous. So it must be the aliens themselves.

To be honest I can live with that. A race of aliens that erase all evidence of themselves whenever we get close to them; they might as well be invisible pink unicorns, which can never be proven not to exist.
Dr Baltar linked to an Apollo 15 photo which shows the six sided appearance of the South Massif very well.
No, it doesn't. The South Massif has a huge conchoidal slump which shows it is a natural feature.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
I provided a link to something artificial looking on page 4.
Ah yes.
http://www.cmf.nrl.navy.mil/cgi-bin/cle ... ter=415_nm.[/url]
You can see that the data on that image is somewhat corrupted; the distortion stretches from the top of the image to the bottom. The Clementine mapper worked very well, but not perfectly. Perhaps the aliens managed to hide all their structures under regions of data-loss; they would need to be very lucky to manage such a feat, however.
 
Which of Kieth Laney's insinuations do you suspect are baseless?
If JAXA or the Indian space agency don't detect anything anomalous then indeed they are not there, but they haven't covered the whole Moon, don't release many photos, and JAXA do obfuscate images.
Don't see why you are still banging on about aliens or NASA removing evidence, when it is yet to be proved that it isn't there.
I don't see how you can claim the South Massif must be natural just because it has sings of subsidence. Some of that subsidence consist of a large slab of the upper surface, which must have some rigidity about it to have withstood the collapse - hardly going to be soil then. how is it that some of the debris from that collapse ended up ejected from a hole in the opposite side?
As for evidence of artificiality, apart frrom the S.Massif there's the mound and enclosure on Mars. Comments? The CLIB link shows something very artificial indeed more or less in the centre of the image which can be seen even with all the corruption or obfuscation. Well worth another look.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
Which of Keith Laney's insinuations do you suspect are baseless?
All of the ones surrounding the A17 landing site, for a start. None of the photos show anything artificial, and the South Massif is not in the slightest bit artificial looking.
It isn't even a hexagon; how can anyone say it is? It has at least one side missing, and the other sides are not all the same length- how can that be seen as a hexagon?
...there's the mound and enclosure on Mars. Comments? The CLIB link shows something very artificial indeed more or less in the centre of the image which can be seen even with all the corruption or obfuscation. Well worth another look.
No, there is no obfuscation or corruption- there is, instead, data compression, which makes it impossible to see details beyond a certain magnification. The image simply shows a hill adjacent to a crater- there are signs of wind and possibly even water erosion, but at both operate very differently on Mars it is not really possible to draw analogies with Earth geology.

Martin geology is fascinating, very different to Earth's and is studied very seriously around the world; plenty of scientists are looking at these images, and they would all like to be the first to spot something truly artificial, but no luck yet.
 
Paradoleia may be one psychological concoction we could do without , but we do need something to describe that phenomenon whereby two people can look at the same image and reach opposing conclusions. The South Massif/Apollo 17 issue is an example of this.
The CLIB image may be one too: if you follow my link rather than look the image up in CLIB yourself you find a magnified section of the original which shows what appears to be a humungous digger blade. Processing flaws aside it couldn't look more artificial to me.
The hill and crater is a constructed mound next to a circular enclosure. I hate to say this, but it appears to be six sided. That circle is just too perfect to be caused by a meteorite impact. There are near identical structures in Ohio and neighbouring states, native American earth mounds.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
The hill and crater is a constructed mound next to a circular enclosure.
No; it is a circular crater next to a giant polygonal hill, a feature of Martian geology that appears to show water erosion.
I hate to say this, but it appears to be six sided. That circle is just too perfect to be caused by a meteorite impact.
Many of the hill-like features on Mars are six sided- that is a feature caused by the processes that formed them. Some fascinating geological processes have been deduced from these images, but they are often without parallel on Earth.

Circular craters are nothing out of the ordinary either, and this one probably looks so regular because it occurred in a region with subsurface ice, which melts and boils simultaneously at Martian pressures and temperatures. The boiling water would have flowed during the formation of the crater, smoothing out any irregularities. Sublimating water ice layers, and possibly effects caused by clathrates of methane or CO2, all add the the weirdness on Mars.

Perhaps there are artificial structures on Mars, but no-one has seen them yet.
 
eburacum said:
...Many of the hill-like features on Mars are six sided- that is a feature caused by the processes that formed them. Some fascinating geological processes have been deduced from these images, but they are often without parallel on Earth.
For entirely natural, hexagonal geological structures, look no further than the Giant's Causeway. There's a lot of them, there, and nary an alien in sight.

It was made by a giant, as any fule kno.
 
An interesting theory. Some slow-acting , not very violent process would fit the bill. However it seems strange that an area with such sub-surface processes going on could still be rigid enough to support the hill/mound.
Good to see that your inability to recognise six-sided objects does not extend beyond the confines of the Moon. ;)
There are indeed a lot of six sided geological structures at the Giant's Causeway, and if there were several thousand of these mounds joined together then even I might start suspecting a geological cause.
Found the CLIB digger blade yet ?
 
Bigfoot73 said:
.
Found the CLIB digger blade yet ?
No, but under magnification I can see (outside the crater, at 5 o'clock) the Two-headed Monster from Sesame Street...
 
Still can't find it ? It's to the left of the black patch, below and to the right of a very bright crater.
Two-headed Monster from Sesame street? I'm not having that. Six-sided Monster from Sesame Street maybe, but two- headed?
Have you read my last post on the Cryptozoology: Falmouth Creature thread ?
 
Talking about underground cavities on the Moon (which we were, a number of posts back) here's a possible hole into one
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... -moon.html
A deep hole on the moon that could open into a vast underground tunnel has been found for the first time. The discovery strengthens evidence for subsurface, lava-carved channels that could shield future human colonists from space radiation and other hazards.

The moon seems to possess long, winding tunnels called lava tubes that are similar to structures seen on Earth. They are created when the top of a stream of molten rock solidifies and the lava inside drains away, leaving a hollow tube of rock.

Their existence on the moon is hinted at based on observations of sinuous rilles – long, winding depressions carved into the lunar surface by the flow of lava. Some sections of the rilles have collapsed, suggesting that hollow lava tubes hide beneath at least some of the rilles.

But until now, no one has found an opening into what appears to be an intact tube. "There's sort of a chicken-and-egg problem," says Carolyn van der Bogert of the University of Münster in Germany. "If it's intact, you can't see it."

Finding a hole in a rille could suggest that an intact tube lies beneath. So a group led by Junichi Haruyama of the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency searched for these "skylights" in images taken by Japan's Kaguya spacecraft, which orbited the moon for almost two years before ending its mission in June.

Deep cave
The team found the first candidate skylight in a volcanic area on the moon's near side called Marius Hills. "This is the first time that anybody's actually identified a skylight in a possible lava tube" on the moon, van der Bogert, who helped analyse the feature, told New Scientist.

The hole measures 65 metres across, and based on images taken at a variety of sun angles, the the hole is thought to extend down at least 80 metres. It sits in the middle of a rille, suggesting the hole leads into a lava tube as wide as 370 metres across.

It is not clear exactly how the hole formed. A meteorite impact, moonquakes, or pressure created by gravitational tugs from the Earth could be to blame. Alternatively, part of the lava tube's ceiling could have been pulled off as lava in the tube drained away billions of years ago.

Radiation shield
Finding such an opening could be a boon for possible human exploration of the moon (see What NASA's return to the moon may look like).

Since the tubes may be hundreds of metres wide, they could provide plenty of space for an underground lunar outpost. The tubes' ceilings could protect astronauts from space radiation, meteoroid impacts and wild temperature fluctuations (see Can high-tech cavemen live on the moon?).

"I think it's really exciting," says Penny Boston of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology in Socorro. "Basalt is an extremely good material for radiation protection. It's free real estate ready to be exploited and modified for human use."

Blocked passage?
But even if astronauts were to rappel into the hole, they might not be able to travel far into the tube it appears to lead into. "I would bet a lot of money that there's a tube there, but I would not bet nearly so much that we could gain access to the tube," says Ray Hawke of the University of Hawaii at Manoa, who has also hunted for lunar lava tubes.

Rubble or solidified lava might block up the tube. "It could be closed up and inaccessible," Hawke told New Scientist.

NASA's Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO), which should be able to snap images of the area that are at least 10 times as sharp, could help reveal more about the hole. And more lava tube openings may be found.

The Kaguya team is still combing over images of other areas in search of additional skylights. And Hawke says a proposal is in the works to use LRO's main camera to snap oblique shots of the lunar surface. This could help reveal cave entrances that are not visible in a bird's-eye view.

Journal reference: Geophysical Research Letters (in press)
Similar things have been seen on Mars. The low gravity seems to allow unusually large lava tubes on both worlds- in theory, I suppose the lava tubes on the Moon could be proportionally larger due to the lower gravity.
 
This is very interesting. That linear depression to the right might be a subsided lava tube.
I guess the space agencies could be forgiven for not having discovered the hole sooner, seeing as it's only 65 metres across and there's a whole planet to be explored.
The holes in Mars photos are in striking colour and high resolution - wonder why it is we never see such pictures of the Moon. I'm not suggesting they use only b & w in order to conceal anomalies, it just seems strange that they do Mars in colour but not the Moon.
The crucial question: could there be water down there? The process of water accumulation NASA proposed for the surface involves regolith and exposure , but there may be some down there due to some other process. It's the sort of thing NASA need to be looking into, if you'll pardon the pun, if they are still intent on returning to the Moon. for their sake let's hope they find some more, ideally close together.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
...it just seems strange that they do Mars in colour but not the Moon.
It's just that the moon is, basically, grey. The Apollo landings were filmed in colour, but the only really coloured things to be seen were those the astronauts took there (eg, the stars and stripes).

In the words of Buzz Aldrin, "I was particularly struck by the contrast between the starkness of the shadows and the desert-like barrenness of the rest of the surface. It ranged from dusty grey to light tan, and it was unchanging except for one startling sight - our lunar module, with its black, silver and bright orange-yellow thermal coating shining brightly in the otherwise colourless landscape.

The colour of the ground depended on the angle of the Sun. It could be shades of grey, or it could be quite bright if the Sun was at my back. If I looked around my shadow, it gave off a whitish colour. But if I looked towards the Sun, it appeared as dark as charcoal.
...
I remarked to Houston, "Beautiful, beautiful. Magnificent desolation.""

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/node/545
 
The moon is mostly grey, but I remember having a book of the moon landings that was all in colour, and much of the ground had a pinkish or brownish tinge, depending on which bit you were looking at.
It's not so easy to capture the moon in colour because of the sheer amount of light bleaching the colour out, hence all you really see is light and dark contrasts.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
This is very interesting. That linear depression to the right might be a subsided lava tube.
I guess the space agencies could be forgiven for not having discovered the hole sooner, seeing as it's only 65 metres across and there's a whole planet to be explored.
The holes in Mars photos are in striking colour and high resolution - wonder why it is we never see such pictures of the Moon. I'm not suggesting they use only b & w in order to conceal anomalies, it just seems strange that they do Mars in colour but not the Moon.
The crucial question: could there be water down there? The process of water accumulation NASA proposed for the surface involves regolith and exposure , but there may be some down there due to some other process. It's the sort of thing NASA need to be looking into, if you'll pardon the pun, if they are still intent on returning to the Moon. for their sake let's hope they find some more, ideally close together.
You don't think Bigfoot that maybe by asking questions like 'why aren't photos of the moon the colour of cheese?' you might be showing your ignorance of the whole subject ? next you will be asking why you cannot see individual rocks in the lcross video :roll:
 
This is misrepresentative trollish gobshite.
You put the line about the Moon being cheese-coloured in quotes, as if it's something I actually said.How big and clever did you think that was going to look?
What I was actually alluding to is that NASA seem to render moon images in straight monochrome when as Mythopeika and Rynner2 say and I am perfectly aware it isn't monochrome in reality.

I suppose you've only turned up here again because you just got your arse kicked off elswhere and you thought noone posting on this thread will have noticed.
You haven't made a single constructive contribution to this thread, and even those you start are just vehicles for unsubstantiated sneering.
As a mod said some pages back, the purpose of the Board is to get somewhere closer to the truth of matters. So what are you doing here?Ignoring all the well-argued, evidence-backed points I and the other p[osters have made only to jump in now with some gross misrepresentation which you think will somehow carry the day for Good Old Fashioned Common Sense, that's what. This forum doesn't work that way, certainly not if your argument consists of nothing but sneers and smears.
I seem to remember suggesting to you in the recent past that you try thinking before you post but I guess you didn't read that either.Why not go find yourself another forum where nobody's heard of you and the standards aren't so high, I'm sure you'd be much happier.
 
Please keep the discourse civil and on topic. If you find a Post particularly offensive, then report it to the the Moderators, don't try to return it in kind.

Please remember the first rule of dealing with a Poster you suspect of being a Troll.

Do not feed them!

Pietro_M.
 
Stuneville:- flaming in response to trolling isn't going to help matters, won't do it again .
 
Bigfoot73 said:
This is misrepresentative trollish gobshite.
You put the line about the Moon being cheese-coloured in quotes, as if it's something I actually said.How big and clever did you think that was going to look?
What I was actually alluding to is that NASA seem to render moon images in straight monochrome when as Mythopeika and Rynner2 say and I am perfectly aware it isn't monochrome in reality.

I suppose you've only turned up here again because you just got your arse kicked off elswhere and you thought noone posting on this thread will have noticed.
You haven't made a single constructive contribution to this thread, and even those you start are just vehicles for unsubstantiated sneering.
As a mod said some pages back, the purpose of the Board is to get somewhere closer to the truth of matters. So what are you doing here?Ignoring all the well-argued, evidence-backed points I and the other p[osters have made only to jump in now with some gross misrepresentation which you think will somehow carry the day for Good Old Fashioned Common Sense, that's what. This forum doesn't work that way, certainly not if your argument consists of nothing but sneers and smears.
I seem to remember suggesting to you in the recent past that you try thinking before you post but I guess you didn't read that either.Why not go find yourself another forum where nobody's heard of you and the standards aren't so high, I'm sure you'd be much happier.

I am just sick to death of the ignorant gibberish that you come out with, I sneer because your theory about lcross being a failure or a fake is based on nothing but ill-informed bullshit.
I am trying to bring a little rationality to some of the more obviously ill thought out arguments that you make.if you actualy try reading the responces to your posts you will find that the only person who doen't think is you.
You have pitched up here, lacking any evidence to support your theory, you show a complete lack of humour, any form of understanding about what other people are trying to say to you and some bizzare obsession about 6 sided hills.
I know that this is new age bullshit where evidence of any kind is frowned on but this is getting stupid.The only evidence you have come up with is some website by a delusional halfwit who thinks he can see buried cities in the dust and your 'feeling' that the lcross video isnt right, I don't think it would stand up to much scrutiny.
Its like these people who say they can see faces when they look at pictures of random piles of rocks on the moon, and you say to them, yes the human brain is designed to see faces, you will see faces if you look hard enough, but oh no, it all evidence of some vast conspiracy. :roll:
 
and here you go, here is some other delusional stuff someone clearly believes in, without any evidence of any kind [http://www.geocities.com/area51/shadowlands/6583/under011.html]

Edit: Direct linking to above link disabled because my copy of McAfee Site Advisor warns that the site in question might try to steal your data. Use at your own risk!

Thread locked, pending deliberations.

P_M
 
The other thread is locked, so this is a continuation.

The latest Sky at Night prog on BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... ar_Impact/
gives a fascinating look at observers, both professional and amateur, watching for the impact plume. And being disappointed!

But it seems that everything went as planned - the impact was dead on target, and NASA collected a great deal of data, which is still being analysed. The results will be announced 'shortly'.

Dr. Chris Lintott, who visited various places in California for the programme, guesses that there will be a positive result in the search for water...

We will see... ;)
 
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