The Lucky Sight Of The King's Dung

[MrRING]

I recently heard a story from a relative that I hadn't come across before that I recall. It is supposed to be areal story they came across somewhere.

Apparently in the past there was a geographic area, presumedly European, where the monarch had a high tower with an open hole toilet. When the king had need of relief, he would go up, let loose, and the results would smear along the tower. Since it was publicly seen, the people of the countryside began to believe that a big royal flush staining the tower meant good luck for the kingdom.

Has anybody heard this tale before?

 

[Ascalon]

Never heard of that, would be interesting to find some references.
I do know that there was an English royal court position of Groom of the Stool, but it did not extend to public displays.

 

[kesavaross]

Over the years I've read of sum really weird positions of the Royal Court in days gone by. There was one years ago I read about in a book and it was something to do with emptying the Royal Kazi. Maybe it was the Groom of the Stool mentioned above but there were others. I once had a book called something I can't remember. Time, getting older and memory are not what they were years ago.

 

[catseye]

I recently heard a story from a relative that I hadn't come across before that I recall. It is supposed to be areal story they came across somewhere.

Apparently in the past there was a geographic area, presumedly European, where the monarch had a high tower with an open hole toilet. When the king had need of relief, he would go up, let loose, and the results would smear along the tower. Since it was publicly seen, the people of the countryside began to believe that a big royal flush staining the tower meant good luck for the kingdom.

Has anybody heard this tale before?

He'd have to have particularly loose stools to smear though, surely? A good, solid bowel movement is just going to fall, untroubled by any walls in its way. And a king with perpetual diarrohea surely isn't going to be good news for any kingdom as it would indicate poor health and a possible war over succession.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Older castles with a bit of overhang were commonly built with holes going downwards. One reason was so they could pour boiling oil or lead down onto any invaders. Some of the holes were used as toilets for the soldiers. So, it wasn't just royalty that used these holes for such a purpose.

 

[eziofan]

I once heard a story from an ex navy serviceman about the officers mess on board the royal yacht Britannia. Apparently they had jars on display behind the bar containing turds from the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[escargot]

I once heard a story from an ex navy serviceman about the officers mess on board the royal yacht Britannia. Apparently they had jars on display behind the bar containing turds from the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh.

That rings a bell'ere too!

There was also reputedly a crew bar on board called The Verge Inn.

 

[Carse]

That rings a bell'ere too!

There was also reputedly a crew bar on board called The Verge Inn.

On the subject of royal turds, you might be interested to know that the pre-1977 British royal train coaches used to have toilets that emptied the traditional way. As you’ll know, the train typically stables overnight in an out-of-the-way siding or branch line and when this happened the travelling fitter had the job of climbing underneath the royal saloons to place large porcelain chamber pots under the waste discharge pipes. These were retrieved by the fitter in the morning, emptied and cleaned by the Royal Household sergeant footman and returned to the train.

This wasn’t done out of any particular concern for the environment (as all other trains also discharged toilet waste directly on to the track at the that time, and they weren’t placed under the non-royal vehicles in the train either) but were a means of preventing souvenir hunters getting their hands on a royal log. The replacement coaches built in 1977 were fitted with retention tanks from the beginning - the first coaches so fitted by British Rail, in fact.

 

[escargot]

He'd have to have particularly loose stools to smear though, surely? A good, solid bowel movement is just going to fall, untroubled by any walls in its way. And a king with perpetual diarrohea surely isn't going to be good news for any kingdom as it would indicate poor health and a possible war over succession.

Nah, the wall would have been uneven and there'd be protruding stones for it to catch on.
Add to that factor the prevailing wind and other unpredictable weather conditions and you have a perfect faecal-smearing situation, regardless of stool consistency.

I'm overthinking this, aren't I?

 

[escargot]

Anyway, here's a snap of the picturesque latrines built into Conwy Castle's south wall. I took this from the train as we, er, whizzed past.

 

[escargot]

This wasn’t done out of any particular concern for the environment (as all other trains also discharged toilet waste directly on to the track at the that time, and they weren’t placed under the non-royal vehicles in the train either) but were a means of preventing souvenir hunters getting their hands on a royal log. The replacement coaches built in 1977 were fitted with retention tanks from the beginning - the first coaches so fitted by British Rail, in fact.

We have so, so much to unpack here.

For a start -
1. Direct-to-track discharge - there are many interesting stories of human interactions with this process. All involve shock and humiliation.
2. Souvenir hunters - I'd laugh this out of the place if hadn't heard about the Royal Yacht Britannia Jars.
A bit Voodoo, innit?

 

[catseye]

Nah, the wall would have been uneven and there'd be protruding stones for it to catch on.
Add to that factor the prevailing wind and other unpredictable weather conditions and you have a perfect faecal-smearing situation, regardless of stool consistency.

I'm overthinking this, aren't I?

We need a volunteer to test this out. I don't think that a good solid poo would catch on anything sufficiently to smear and be noticeable from outside the castle environs (sufficient for the plebs to observe). But am perfectly willing to be proved wrong...

 

[kesavaross]

Older castles with a bit of overhang were commonly built with holes going downwards. One reason was so they could pour boiling oil or lead down onto any invaders. Some of the holes were used as toilets for the soldiers. So, it wasn't just royalty that used these holes for such a purpose.

This gives a whole new meaning to shitting on your enemies.

 

[escargot]

We need a volunteer to test this out. I don't think that a good solid poo would catch on anything sufficiently to smear and be noticeable from outside the castle environs (sufficient for the plebs to observe). But am perfectly willing to be proved wrong...

Depends on the overhang.
How does the downward aperture line up with the exterior wall? If the overhang is narrow, so the occupant's posterior is close to the wall, the product will slide down the stonework.
This seems likely to me as castle walls are very thick. You might have trouble reaching the outlet.

Someone is going to have to visit a castle where the mediaeval latrines are accessible, such as Conwy, and do some re-enacments.

 

[Erinaceus]

For some reason King Richard the Turd comes to mind.

 

[Timble2]

Isn't the Blarney Stone supposed to be part of a medieval latrine, with the specific function of deflecting some of the shit away from the castle wall?

 

[Salmonellus]

I'd vote for this tradition being a sort of governmental health check.

King's stools being of good volume and good consistency = healthy king.
Healthy king = stable government.

Of course unhealthy kings might have resorted to a different type of "body double" to keep the illusion up....

 

[Yithian]

I'd vote for this tradition being a sort of governmental health check.

King's stools being of good volume and good consistency = healthy king.
Healthy king = stable government.

Oh, how I love this film and its encapsulation of your point.

No scene of Percival checking the royal chamber pot though.

 

[catseye]

Depends on the overhang.
How does the downward aperture line up with the exterior wall? If the overhang is narrow, so the occupant's posterior is close to the wall, the product will slide down the stonework.
This seems likely to me as castle walls are very thick. You might have trouble reaching the outlet.

Someone is going to have to visit a castle where the mediaeval latrines are accessible, such as Conwy, and do some re-enacments.

From my somwhat faulty memory, there used to be a 'pit' into which the, er, leavings, fell from the latrines, that was cleared out semi-regularly. If there was sufficient space to fit a pit into, and sufficient leavings to necessitate a pit and a man to clean it out, then this must mean that most of the shit went into it. And that there was enough clearance from the bottom of the tower to fit a pit into, which may mean that the latrine stuck out far enough that smearings shouldn't happen.

Volunteer?

 

[maximus otter]

"The toilets of a castle were usually built into the walls so that they projected out on corbels and any waste fell below and into the castle moat. Even better, waste went directly into a river as is the case of the latrines of one of the large stone halls at Chepstow Castle in Wales, built from the 11th century AD.

Mediaeval castle latrine

Some castles, such as the 11th-century AD Corfe Castle in Dorset, England had latrine shafts emptying directly in the courtyard or bailey while still others hung conveniently over a cliff face, as at Peveril Castle in Derbyshire, England, built in 1176-1777 AD.

The protruding shaft of masonry that made up the toilet was buttressed from below or might nestle in the junction between a tower and wall. Some waste shafts were short while others reached almost to the ground. In the latter case, that might prove a dangerous design feature if there were a siege of the castle. Indeed, besiegers used just such a latrine shaft in 1203-4 AD to gain entry to Chateau Gaillard on the River Seine in France, built by Richard 1 (r. 1189-99 AD) at the end of the 12th century AD. After the siege, to ensure no repeat of the trick, a masonry wall was built around the shaft exit.

Garderobe, Peveril castle

Another design was to have tiers of toilets on the outside wall where the shafts all sent waste to the same collection point. Dover Castle, built in the second half of the 11th century AD, had a cesspit at the base of one wall of the keep to collect waste from the toilets above. At Coity Castle in Wales, built in the 12th century AD, there were three tiers of toilets with the shafts emptying into the same courtyard basement. The same arrangement was found at Langley Castle in Northumberland, England, built c. 1350 AD, with the common collection point being a pit which was cleaned out by a natural stream. There were also toilets in ground floor buildings and these had stone drainage channels to drain away waste. Waste from such collection points, or the ditch in general, was likely collected by local farmers to be reused as fertiliser.

Toilet, Tower of London

When castles became larger and more comfortable from the 14th century AD, so the number of conveniences increased. Bodiam Castle in East Sussex, England, for example, had no fewer than 28 toilets emptying out into its moat."

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1239/toilets-in-a-medieval-castle/

maximus otter

 

[catseye]

"The toilets of a castle were usually built into the walls so that they projected out on corbels and any waste fell below and into the castle moat. Even better, waste went directly into a river as is the case of the latrines of one of the large stone halls at Chepstow Castle in Wales, built from the 11th century AD.

Mediaeval castle latrine

Some castles, such as the 11th-century AD Corfe Castle in Dorset, England had latrine shafts emptying directly in the courtyard or bailey while still others hung conveniently over a cliff face, as at Peveril Castle in Derbyshire, England, built in 1176-1777 AD.

The protruding shaft of masonry that made up the toilet was buttressed from below or might nestle in the junction between a tower and wall. Some waste shafts were short while others reached almost to the ground. In the latter case, that might prove a dangerous design feature if there were a siege of the castle. Indeed, besiegers used just such a latrine shaft in 1203-4 AD to gain entry to Chateau Gaillard on the River Seine in France, built by Richard 1 (r. 1189-99 AD) at the end of the 12th century AD. After the siege, to ensure no repeat of the trick, a masonry wall was built around the shaft exit.

Garderobe, Peveril castle

Another design was to have tiers of toilets on the outside wall where the shafts all sent waste to the same collection point. Dover Castle, built in the second half of the 11th century AD, had a cesspit at the base of one wall of the keep to collect waste from the toilets above. At Coity Castle in Wales, built in the 12th century AD, there were three tiers of toilets with the shafts emptying into the same courtyard basement. The same arrangement was found at Langley Castle in Northumberland, England, built c. 1350 AD, with the common collection point being a pit which was cleaned out by a natural stream. There were also toilets in ground floor buildings and these had stone drainage channels to drain away waste. Waste from such collection points, or the ditch in general, was likely collected by local farmers to be reused as fertiliser.

Toilet, Tower of London

When castles became larger and more comfortable from the 14th century AD, so the number of conveniences increased. Bodiam Castle in East Sussex, England, for example, had no fewer than 28 toilets emptying out into its moat."

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1239/toilets-in-a-medieval-castle/

maximus otter

But what about the walls, Max? Any evidence of smearing?

 

[maximus otter]

But what about the walls, Max? Any evidence of smearing?

It's been centuries: What would he have had to have been eating?

maximus otter

 

[Mythopoeika]

It's been centuries: What would he have had to have been eating?

maximus otter

Sweetcorn? That stuff has a half-life of 2000 years.

 

[maximus otter]

Sweetcorn? That stuff has a half-life of 2000 years.

"Sorry, Guinevere, I'd give it a Crusade or two..."

maximus otter

 

[catseye]

Well I never thought I'd be spending my Bank Holiday Monday musing on the smear capabilities of poo dropped from a height...
We know how to live on this forum.

 

[Swifty]

Well I never thought I'd be spending my Bank Holiday Monday musing on the smear capabilities of poo dropped from a height...
We know how to live on this forum.

I was just thinking the same thing. I wish my school history lessons had been this much fun. I hope Barry Baldwin's also reading this thread.

 

[MrRING]

A few vids, including castle urinal holes for defenders to not have to leave their posts:

 

[Bigphoot2]

Many years ago I worked at a college and there used to be problems with some of the students staying in the halls of residence. Some characters decided to have a competition - they would place a plate on the floor of the stairwell and then go up to the top floor - 4 floors up, stick their bums over the rail, drop their bombs and see who could hit the plate.
The really scary thing was - that was a teacher training college!

 

[MrRING]

Many years ago I worked at a college and there used to be problems with some of the students staying in the halls of residence. Some characters decided to have a competition - they would place a plate on the floor of the stairwell and then go up to the top floor - 4 floors up, stick their bums over the rail, drop their bombs and see who could hit the plate.
The really scary thing was - that was a teacher training college!

Did you win the competition, @Bigphoot2 ?

 

[Bigphoot2]

Did you win the competition, @Bigphoot2 ?

I cheated by using curry, prune juice and ex-lax. But they told me carpet bombing was banned.