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The Paradox of Ghostly Phenomenon

athyra

Gone But Not Forgotten
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Let me preface this by saying I do not necessarily believe in ghosts, but in the phenomenon. But that is irrelevant.

Okay, now herein lies the paradox. Whenever someone sees or hears something that could be indicative of a ghost, a normal, rational person will (in my opinion), go over every single possible phenomenon that could possibly explain what occurred.

Sometimes, very rarely, something will defy our knowledge of how things are, and that is when skeptics start to believe.

That's not a paradox, now is it? But think, for a moment. If ghosts, or the phenomenon do exist, how often do we mistakenly attribute ghostly phenomenon for the mundane?

In my opinion, considering that ghostly phenomenon can and is often attributed to the rational until at some later point we learn that that explanation is irrational, how often does this sort of thing occur? How often is it not actually your house settling, but the moan of a ghost (or whatever phenomenon is responsible)?

I think, if the phenomenon occurs, that it truly does happen very, very often. I mean, if you thought you saw an object move without it being touched, how often would you attribute it to a ghost if you were in a new, modern house, or how often if you saw it in a house reputed to be haunted. My guess is that while yes, you may see things occasionally... How often did it actually move?

In many ways, the smarter you are and the less set in your ways you are, the much more likely you are to see a ghost or something unexplainable. Why? Because, firstly, you'll know what is and isn't possible, and what is or isn't likely at all, and have the deductive and logical reasoning capable to determine that, based on your current information set, that you cannot explain what just happened. That your subjective reality may not be as objective as you think, or have been taught. The second quality is obvious, in that if you are bound in your ways you're more likely to let your opinion dictate the truth, rather then the evidence dictating the truth, or lack thereof.

Of course, over imagination does play a part in this.

I guess my point is, if ghostly phenomenon does exist, then many "explainable things" we witness may not be explainable. Just because it can be explained by hallucination, a house settling, or what have you, doesn't necessarily mean that that is the cause.

This is also why, I think, the paranormal tends to polarize people into absolute skeptics or absolute believers. Once your view of reality is questioned, once something impossible happens and it cannot be explained, it calls into doubt everything you have experienced previously. This can cause three reactions. One, absolute denial. Two, absolute belief (in anything). Three, an open mind willing to consider the possibilities based on the evidence.

Now, why am I posting this? I've had many, many strange things occur in my life. For instance, three tornados have struck near where I live. All three times, the morning before or the day before, I remarked to someone "I think there will be a tornado". The first time happened at the age of 8. Now, of course, this could be explained by an intense curiosity or fear of tornados, and that any weather that might remotely spawn one, I will assume that it will. This is not the case. Guess how many times I've made a comment predicting a tornado, and you'd be right if you thought 3. Next, it could be assumed I had unconscious prior knowledge. Yet I did not. A tornado cannot be predicted 8 or 24 hours (in the one case of 24 hours, which was actually a bit more, I remarked, for some reason, there'd be a tornado tommorow) in advance, with 100% accuracy, over the course of more then a decade. It cannot be done. Next, of course, it could be believed that some part of me picked up on natural unconscious cues caused by specific conditions that would be associated with tornados. Yet how would I do this 24 hours in advance? Finally, there is the correct answer, "I don't know". And because I don't know, any answer is open for onsideration.

Or, a more material phenomenon. I woke up, had a breakfast of dried cereal (I hate it with milk). I spilled some cheerios, over the course of eating. I got up and put away the box and my bowl, and got my cigarettes and matches. I put my cigarette pack down, pulled out a cigarette, and lit it. I put the match in the ash tray. I was puffing contentedly, when I saw something. This is what I saw. I saw a cheerio flicked... It was still, and then moved quickly as if it were flicked, and it landed on my cigarette pack six inches away. It did not gradually slow down, but changed from moving quite fast to a complete halt, as if someone put there hand down on it to stop it. Yet of course, I saw nothing to explain this. I was stunned.

Now, I did not bump the table. I was sitting still puffing, one arm by my side and one holding the cigarette. I was looking down at some point quite near my cigarette pack, so I quite clearly saw what happened. Next there is the cheerio. After sitting for a minute, totally stunned, I hesitantly reached for it. I must have sat for 10 seconds with my finger an inch from it, afraid to touch it. Finally, expecting that some force, whatever had moved it, would keep it on the pack of cigarettes, I reached down and picked it up. It was a normal, every day cheerio. I had not imagined it. More, since I had spilled the cheerios before I had put the box away with my bowl, then gotten my pack of cigarettes and put it down, there was no way it could have been on the box of cigarettes beforehand, and I simply had imagined it moving. Only if, somehow, I moved it unconsciously, without being aware, could I have put it on the box. There was no wind, I went through every possible explanation from a small vortex of air caused by air current (either from a pressure differential or ventillation... my apartment was sealed and the ventilation off), to a small earthquake which I did not sense.

Nothing, nothing at all could explain that cheerio. I ate it, by the way, as a means to check on my own sanity. Yes, the flicked cheerio that I had picked up, touched, seen, did have a taste. Somehow this reassured me of my sanity far more then any other sense.

Can I explain what happened? No. THose are the two most material "fortean" phenomenon I have experienced (but by no means the most extreme or bazaar).

They caused me to question my belief system, a fortean agnostic bordering on atheist.

But the point is, if those two phenomenon, which if anyone can explain I'd be immensely happy, were caused by something unknown... How many merely "wierd", but explainable, or even mundane events could be caused by something else? I don't know. I do not go looking for trolls under bridges, nor spend my entire life trying to prove that there are in fact, no trolls under bridges, but nonetheless I am forced to admit that yes, somewhere, somehow, there may be a troll under a certain bridge.

And, more disturbingly, I am forced to ask myself, how often have I seen a rock, a shadow, a reflection, but wasn't. But was, rather, a troll. How do I know?

(No I have never seen a troll under a bridge, it was an analogy).

Thus is the paradox of ghosts, goblins, magick, the occult, etc., or "fortean" phenomenon. And, for better or for worse, the reasons for the attitudes that arise from it.

(BTW, if anyone is curious I have some interesting... stories... along a similar vein, but far more wierd [and no, no alien anal probings or poltergeists zipping about the room, or strange dog headed men who have a fetish for zippers])
 
Of course, we're interested in your stories, luv, or we wouldn't be reading these boards.

Do tell!

As for things being not quite as they seem, well, not that surprising, since we don't know everything.
 
Ghost Paradox

'' Let me preface this by saying I do not necessarily believe in ghosts, but in the phenomenon. ''

Howzat??
 
Something causes people to see what they interpret as ghosts. Images, feelings, moving objects, etc.

Whether those are caused by a "ghost", a remnant of a once living human being, or some physical or psychological phenomenon, such as the effect of electromagnetic fields on certain parts of the brain, etc.

I don't know if it's a "ghost", per se. I think that's just as pre-mature a finding as saying ghosts do not exist.

Hence, I believe in the phenomenon: there is something that people are perceiving or witnessing. What the cause is, I do not know.
 
I'll start with a cliche, but one that is true nonetheless. I was born on Halloween, just before midnight. I later checked with those who were present for my birth, but they did indeed say that it was "10-15" minutes before midnight when I finally gave up and entered the world. As to the date, well, it's on all my documentation.

Now, shortly after my birth it was discovered that I would, for some reason, spontaneously stop breathing. This is what causes either SIDS or crib death, I forget which. I was held in the hospital for several months on ventilation, monitoring me to ensure that I did not suffocate in my sleep.

Finally, after a time, the doctors deemed it safe to bring me home, with the proviso that I was to be kept in my parents room when I slept. Babies breathe loudly, and often if for some reason there is a recurrence, parents often will wake up and be able to perform AR on the child.

I was kept in my parent's room for a little over a month, and then finally I was placed in my room. All went well, until one night my mother frantically woke my father, saying that that there was something wrong, that they needed to check on me. Needless to say, they did check on me, and found me lying in my crib, blue. I had stopped breathing.

They performed AR on me, as they had been taught (it is easy to injure a babies' lungs unless you know how). They moved my crib back into their room, and again, for a period of time, I was fine. They then moved me back to my room, and, again, all went well.

But after a number of days, my mother woke my father again, this time less frantically. She said, this time, that I wasn't breathing and they needed to go check on me. My father accepted this pronouncement, even though my mother was still in bed with him.

They found me blue again, not breathing. They performed AR again, and moved me to their room, this time for a longer period of time. After this incident, no more occurred.

Now, I had heard the very same story I had told you, and it was well known among my family. I had heard it several times, and always the teller would chalk it up to a mother's intuition and instincts.

Yet, when I was 13, driving in my car with my mother, she pulled over in a parking lot, and we sat silently. My mother proceeded to ask if I remembered the stories of how I'd stop breathing as a baby, and how my mother and father had had to revive me on two occasions. I replied that I had. She then paused, and told me that that story, while it did happen, wasn't exactly how it had happened. She paused again, and said that what she was going to tell me she had told no one else at all.

The story I had been told by my relatives was true enough, in the details. My mother, however, said that it wasn't intuition that had woken her.

She went on to describe what she remembered. My parents both snore, quite loudly. When they are asleep, they are almost impossible to awaken verbally. Yet my mother described this as what had happened. She was asleep, when she was jarred into a half awake state by a female voice saying " 'e', wake up, Ivan isn't breathing". My mother was confused, she assumed she had been dreaming, and she was half asleep she told me. But again, in this half asleep state she again heard a female voice repeat what she had thought she had heard before. She laid there, in bed, with her eyes closed for the second reptition. Again, the female voice repeated the same sentence, and finally my mother opened her eyes and sat up. She told me that she thought she saw something... But wasn't sure what, nor if she actually had seen anything. She was confused and her mind was still sleep muddled, yet the voice continued the sentence, and then stopped.

She told me she sat there, confused and a little scared, until she decided to wake up my father and then check on me. When she did, she found me not breathing.

The second time happened much the same as the first, except this time she woke immediately and sat up as soon as the female voice finished it's sentence, and then woke my father and told him that I was not breathing. My father, although seeing that she had not been out of bed, got up and they went to check on me. Again, I was not breathing.

When she told me this, it seemed to me that she was almost confessing, and I believe that SHE believed her recounting of what had happened. Her details fit into the details my father and relatives had told me.

And, to be blunt, I was surprised and I wasn't. I was surprised, because my mother was and is a lawyer, not spiritual in any way except mildly Christian, and not the sort to tell stories. Indeed, what she told me was entirely out of character, and I was surprised to hear the new twist on the old tale. Yet, I was also not surprised, in that she had heard a voice, and that it was female. This was entirely unsurprising, and yet frightening, all things considered.

P.S. Anyone know the historical significance of halloween? I do know that it has some, but not what.

P.P.S. And no, I do not believe necessarily in ghosts, but in the phenomenon... Lord knows I do heh.
 
Hi, about halloween, it has different significance all over the world.

To "witches, wiccans" it is the main festival of the year.

Yes, some cults actually sacrificed humans.

But the halloween as we know it today was actually from ireland. due to potato famine in 1840 irish people migrated to the usa and uk. they brang the tradition of halloween. the turnip used to be used as the lantern and this slowly changed to the punpkin.
paganism was still popular in ireland...

Trick ot Treat origin- The Pagans believed that on one night of the year, souls of the dead returned to their original homes. These wandering spirits were in the habit of haunting the living. To exorcise these ghosts (that is, to free yourself from an evil spirit) you would have to set out food, (give the demons a treat) and provide shelter for them by the night. If you didn't, they would "trick" you by casting a spell on you or hurting you.


The legend of the jack o lantern is as follows. (very odd)

Jack was a terrible guy. wife beater, a drunk etc. As he grew old it was his time to go to hell. he managed to trick the devil into climbing a tree and he scribed an image of the cross on the trunk so he could not climb down. He made the devil promise that he would not take his soul away.

But jack still died. therefore he could not enter heaven or hell. The Devil, as a final gesture, threw a live coal at Jack straight from the fire of Hell. To light his way and to keep it from blowing out in the wind Jack put it in a turnip he was eating. Ever since Jack and his "lantern" has been traveling over the face of the earth looking for a place to rest.


Sorry about the long one, but halloween is soo cool!
 
Technically, being a wiccan myself I should be really keen on Samhain (or all hallows eve) becaus of its religious significance. Unfortunately I have the heart of a romntic and the mind of a sceptic so I'm in to minds about most things.
May I just say that despite everything I adore Hallow'een, cause we always have a big fancy dress party. Though admittedly I leave mints on the gate for the spirits of the dead, though there's an open invitation to dead relatives...:devil:
 
I must say that i've often wondered the same. My family see things all the time but they're hideously curious and I'm anti-curious. If there's a noise I purposely will find ANY REASON UNDER THE SUN for it to be a normal noise and will NEVER go and investigate. If something is going to happen to me then I'm not going to spend the last few seconds of my life being frightened that its about to happen. Call me dumb but i think that some people go looking for trouble. If that cheerio had been mine I'd have just eaten it straight away without blinking! I don't like attention-seekers of ANY variety.:D

I'm so glad you told us that you ate the cheerio or flake thing. As I read your post it was my most nagging question until I read further on. Isn't that so like human nature that we get faced with all kinds of philosophical questions about life and meaning of existence yet we can't help popping that last stray flake into our mouths? I don't know what it says about my sense of humour but it had me near to tears for at least five minutes:laughing:
 
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