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The Pied Piper Of Hamelin: Real Or Fiction?

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I had read somewhere that the Pied Piper was based on a legend about a mass murderer in Germany who had killed a lot of children and hung their bodies in a forest. I thought I had read it somewhere in FT, in a review of a book, perhaps? Does anyone else remember this? Can anyone point me in the direction of the source material for this?
Maybe I imagined it. I could have had a dream about Peter Lorre and confabulated the whole thing, I don't know...

Trace Mann
 
ZPumpkinEscobar said:
I had read somewhere that the Pied Piper was based on a legend about a mass murderer in Germany who had killed a lot of children and hung their bodies in a forest. I thought I had read it somewhere in FT, in a review of a book, perhaps? Does anyone else remember this? Can anyone point me in the direction of the source material for this?Trace Mann
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I think it was maybe Barbara Tuchman in 'A Distant Mirror'. That stuck in my mind too. IIRC (it's been years since I read it) she didn't have any source listed.
 
Wasn't the Pied Piper story believed to be a heavily re-worked version of a case when Medieval villagers in Germany ate rye bread infected with ergot, went totally off their brains and killed and ate their children?

Obviously the disappearance of a generation of children from anywhere would require explanation!
 
Sebastian said:
Wasn't the Pied Piper story believed to be a heavily re-worked version of a case when Medieval villagers in Germany ate rye bread infected with ergot, went totally off their brains and killed and ate their children?
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Another version I heard was that it was a reworking of the historial incident called the Children's Crusade of 1212, where, inspired by the preachings of two peasant boys, one in France one in Germany, hundreds of children ran away on a Crusade, They were last seen heading in the general direction of the Holy Land and never heard from again. (Probably died or were kidnapped and sold into slavery.)
 
Just out of curiousity - what is the concensous opinion here concerning the events of the Pied Piper of Hamelin?

A homepage has this to say:

http://www.ims.uni-stuttgart.de/~jonas/piedpiper.html

What's the historical background of the legend?
The story about the Pied Piper of Hamelin goes back to some obscure historical event that occured in the town of Hamelin (or Hameln, which is the German name) in Germany on June 26, 1284.

The oldest remaining source is a note in Latin prose, written down 150 years later (1430-1450) as an addition to a 14th century manuscript from Lüneburg. It was not rediscovered until 1936 (by Heinrich Spanuth).

There are also reports of a glass picture in the church of Hamelin dating from before 1300, depicting the exodus of the children. The picture has been missing since the window was replaced in 1660. There are reconstructions of a rhyme included in this picture reporting that a piper, dressed in many colours, led 130 of Hamelin's children away.
A similar rhyme is inscribed on the wall of the Rattenfängerhaus ("Pied Piper house" -- built in 1602/03) in Hamelin:

Anno 1284 am dage Johannis et Pauli
war der 26. junii
Dorch einen piper mit allerlei farve bekledet
gewesen CXXX kinder verledet binnen Hamelen gebo[re]n
to calvarie bi den koppen verloren

rough translation:
In the year of 1284, on John's and Paul's day
was the 26th of June
By a piper, dressed in all kinds of colours,
130 children born in Hamelin were deduced
and lost at the "calvarie" near the "koppen"

"calvarie" is apparantly the word for a place of execution. Researchers don't agree on what could be meant by the "koppen"; there are several hills in the surroundings of Hamelin that have to be considered.

Although there has been a lot of research, no clear explanation can be given these days of what historical event is behind the reports. Some speculate that the piper was hired by some sovereign to recruit settlers for new colonies in Eastern Europe (a popular version of the tale has the children walk through a tunnel all the way to Transsylvania; serious research accounts see evidence that the "children" went to Moravia -- the Eastern part of the modern Czech republic). Other theories believe in a "dance epidemic", the plague, a children's crusade or some battle etc.
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And this is the Straight Dope version of reality:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mpiedpiper.html
 
I'm originally from Hannover, which is only about 25 min drive from Hameln. I've been there many times and bought a lot of stone hard bread-rats you can buy there (for display purposes only but I used to crack my teeth eating them as a challenge). As far as I was concrened it is only a tale but considering the fuss they make there could have been a real story to it. In a way I was always on the pied pipers (Rattenfaenger , which he is called in German = Rat-catcher) side. As the greedy people of Hamlin happily accepted his help to get rid of the rats but then refused to pay him. So he got rid of their kids the way he got rid of the rats...apparently you can sometimes still hear the children scream in the hills (forests) nearby...HAHAHAHA :twisted:
 
I think the legend has also been explained as a distorted memory of the Children's Crusade of 1212.

"The children's crusade began in 1212 and it included children from France and Rhine land. The French children were led by Stephen of Cloyes while the German children were led by Nicholas of Cologne. There were about 30,000 youths from ages 10 to 18 years old that walk across Europe to the Mediterranean Sea. They believed that God would part the sea for them and deliver the Holy City into their hands because they were innocent and poor. When the sea didn't open, some of the children turned back. A few went to Rome where Pope Innocent III released them from their Crusade vows. A few found ships that would give them free passage. The owners of the ships, William the Pig and Hugh the Iron, took them to Africa and sold them as slaves. Most of the children died or were sold as slave. None reached the Holy City."

http://www.yesnet.yk.ca/schools/project ... usade.html
 
I like Brownings poem on the subject.

Rats!
They fought the dogs and killed the cats
And bit the babies in the cradles
And ate the cheese out of the vats
 
Of thread but...

carole said:
Complete text here: http://readytogoebooks.com/PP77.htm


Carole
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An example there of Robert Browning misunderstanding a word there, seems to think trepanned means "taken into".

To their fathers and mothers having risen
Out of some subterranean prison,
Into which they were trepanned
Long time ago, in a mighty band,
Out of Hamelin Town in Brunswick Land,
But how or why, they don't understand.
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*EDIT. On second thoughts he might have been referring metaphorically to the hole opening up in the mountain. Still so as not to spoil a true factoid I'll leave rest of the post alone.*

Another example of Browning using a word he was confused about comes in the poem "Pippa Passes" where he thought "twat" was an article of nun's clothing.

Then owls and bats
Cowls and twats
Monks and nuns in a cloister's moods
Adjourn to the oak-stump pantry
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For another fictional treatment of the Hamelin story, see Donna Jo Napoli's *Breath,* in which the rats and the dancing are tied together by a run of bad weather that produces widespread ergot poisoning. Oh, and there's cystic fibrosis and Christian witches. When Napoli does her research, she doesn't monkey around.
 
Re: Of thread but...

Timble said:
[Another example of Browning using a word he was confused about comes in the poem "Pippa Passes" where he thought "twat" was an article of nun's clothing.

Then owls and bats
Cowls and twats
Monks and nuns in a cloister's moods
Adjourn to the oak-stump pantry
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

We did Browning for GCE and that bit caused many a titter in the classroom, I can tell you . . .

Here's an interesting link which details similar legends, including one from Austria, one from England: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hameln.html

Carole
 
I thought this was an interesting addition to the legend - an English variant!

LINK
THE PIED PIPER OF NEWTOWN

Newtown in the fourteenth century. The ancient borough of Francheville. A thriving seaport. A bustling market place. Workable salterns, fruitful oyster beds. One of the finest natural harbours in the South of England. A town with a bright looking future. Ships of 500 tons burthen tied up at the crowded quay. The people, the houses, the names of the streets echoed the wealth and prosperity, Gold Street, Silver Street, Quay Street, Draper’s Alley.

What destroyed it all? What great upheaval took place and deprived Francheville of her rightful position as chief port and town of the Isle of Wight? Why did the grand title fade to be replaces by simple Newtown?

The French! Countless times during that black period of history now known as the Hundred Years War they descended on the Isle of Wight. Bembridge, St. Helens, Wolverton, Yarmouth, each was reduced to ashes by the Islanders’ powerful neighbours from across the channel. In 1377 it was the turn of Newtown. The great medieval borough ‘S. Comatis de Francheville de L’ile de Wyht’ writhed and burned under the sword of the French invader. Resistance proved futile. The inhabitants of Newtown were outnumbered. What’s more, if we can believe Island folk lore and legend, the defenders consisted of middle-aged men and ancients. There were no young people to defend the town.

No young people in Francheville? An entire generation missing? Why? What happened to the youth of Newtown? Let us look more closely at the legend.

Rats. During the early years of the fourteenth century, Newtown was plagued with them. Overlarge, vicious creatures they survived on the borough’s prosperity. No granary, shop or food store was safe. The rats were everywhere, nibbling and gnawing. Ruining food, spreading disease. Even consuming wine and alcohol.

Naturally enough the people of Newtown declared war on the vermin. Cats were bought into the town, scores and scores of them. But to no avail. The rats were too strong and clever. They attacked the very animals sent in to destroy them. Cats were cornered by overwhelming numbers and torn to pieces. Kittens were killed and eaten before they were big enough to defend themselves.

In desperation the mayor and corporation stated that they would give a £50 reward to anyone who would rid them of the rats. One man answered their summons. An eccentric looking stranger. The Pied Piper.

The Pied Piper. On the Isle of Wight! Was he I wonder the same man who featured in the German legend? Was he the same man who was supposed to have appeared in Hamlyn in 1284. It would be interesting to find out whether he had a German accent. But, alas, folk lore remains silent on this point.

Nevertheless, the rest of the story bears a striking resemblance to that which took place at Hamlyn. The stranger produced his pipe and proceeded to play. He walked slowly down to the quay. From all directions, rats followed him.

Upon reaching the water’s edge, he got into a boat and rowed into the Solent. The rats swam out after him, hundreds and hundreds of them. The tide went out and every single rodent perished on the mud flats.

Triumphantly, the Piper returned to the town hall. He asked the mayor and corporation for his £50. They shook their heads. £50 was a lot of money. They offered him £20.

As it was in Hamlyn, so it was in Newtown. The Piper picked up his pipe once more and an unearthly trill warbled through the air. He started to walk out of town, and the Newtown children scurried after him. Over the bridge they tripped and into the woods beyond. Neither children nor piper were seen again.

SADNESS AND MYSTERY

Thus it was that in 1377, when the French fell upon Newtown that there were no young men ready to meet them in combat. They had all disappeared with the Piper into the dark woods all those years before.

Today Newtown is humble. Huddled beside the lagoons and creeks. Hidden by the sinister woods. Existing only by the permission of Mother Nature.

Sadness and mystery still whisper through the unpolluted air. For the woods have not given up their centuries old secret. What happened to the children of Newtown we do not know. Maybe the answer lies somewhere in the marshes or tangled undergrowth. In the lakes or muddy streams.

(This was first published in the ‘Islander’ magazine in 1985)
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And offical HAMLEN website
 
Isn't Stormkhan's missus from the Isle of Wight?
 
Crusade and Plague

The Pied Piper episode has been commonly identified with both the Children's Crusade and (becausee of all those darn rats) the Bubonic Plague ("Black Death"), but the Hamelin adventure occurred 72 years too late for the former and more than 60 years too early for the latter.

In our own day attempts have been made to use the Hamelin legend as a proof of the existence of subterranean civilizations, from one of which the Piper emerged with some type of hypnosis gizmo (that is, his "flute") and to which he returned again with the captured children. These same individuals have also used Aladeen's and Ali Baba's treasure-caves as additional proofs of underworld races. Richard Shaver himself opined that the twinkling jewels of Alladeen's cave ("pay them no mind," said the Magician) were in actuality the glowing control panels, flickering dials and illuminated push-buttons of prehistoric electronic instruments!
 
They probably used one of those 1970s computers which had a whole wall of blinking light bulbs.
 
i was in hameln on saturday, it is a very nice small town. didn't spend enough time there though to visit the various attractions, but it seems worth a day out if you were in the area. the only real piper thing i saw apart from the buildings was the automaton display on the glockenspiel. well i say automaton, more of figures on tracks going round.
 
If you go during the summer, you can see the towns people performing the play. All the kids dress up as rats - it's really cute.

I've been to the museum at Hameln and I was under the impression that the tale came out of some form of truth - lots of kids missing. But it was a few years ago so I can't remember all I read. Besides, I was too busy admiring the rat umbrellas for sale LOL

Btw can anyone answer me if Abba's "The piper" is based on the Hameln story or not? Always intrigues me.

The Piper Song Lyrics
Artist/Band: ABBA
THEY CAME FROM THE HILLS
AND THEY CAME FROM
THE VALLEYS AND THE PLAINS
THEY STRUGGLED IN THE COLD
IN THE HEAT AND THE SNOW
AND IN THE RAIN
CAME TO HEAR HIM PLAY
PLAY THEIR MINDS AWAY

WE´RE ALL FOLLOWING
A STRANGE MELODY
WE´RE ALL SUMMONED BY A TUNE
WE´RE FOLLOWING THE PIPER
AND WE DANCE BENEATH THE MOON
WE´RE FOLLOWING THE PIPER
AND WE DANCE BENEATH THE MOON FOR HIM
AND WE DANCE BENEATH THE MOON

THEY CAME FROM THE SOUTH
FROM THE WEST AND THE NORTH
AND FROM THE EAST
THEY WAITED FOR THE MAN
LIKE A PARISH IS WAITING FOR THE PRIEST
LONGED TO HEAR HIM PLAY
PLAY THEIR MINDS AWAY

WE´RE ALL FOLLOWING...

HE GAVE THEM A DREAM
HE SEDUCED EVERYBODY IN THE LAND
THE FIRE IN HIS EYES
AND THE FEAR WAS A WEAPON IN HIS HAND
SO THEY LET HIM PLAY
PLAY THEIR MINDS AWAY

WE´RE ALL FOLLOWING...
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About time they paid the Piper.

Hamelin: German town hit by new plague of rats
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18203263

Legend has it that the rats were lured to their fate in the River Weser

Related Stories

Rats return to Pied Piper's town
The fabled German town of Hamelin may need a new rat-catcher after it emerged that rodents had gnawed through a cable powering one of its fountains.

Hamelin is popular with tourists because of the legend of the Pied Piper who ended its plague of rats in 1284.

The Brothers Grimm told of how a man in colourful garb charmed the rodents into the River Weser, where they drowned.

But now the rats have staged a comeback, officials say, lured by food left by the tourists for the birds.

This is not the first time that Hamelin in Lower Saxony - called Hameln in Germany - has struggled with rats in recent years. In 2008, discarded food and rubbish made an allotment site outside the town a haven for the rodents.


But the fountain, which was erected close to the railway station in the 1980s, is much nearer the centre and has dried up.

Although Hamelin officials are keen to rid themselves of their latest infestation, they appear to have little interest in repairing the fountain's broken cable.

Town spokesman Thomas Wahmes said the fountain had already become a problem because of the number of leaves that had to be cleared away on a regular basis: "The fountain is peculiarly hard to maintain and the piping is broken," spokesman Thomas Wahmes told the Deister and Weser Zeitung.

The BBC's Stephen Evans in Germany points out that even if the Pied Piper were around today he would probably not be interested in helping the residents of Hamelin.

The Grimm fairy tale describes how the Pied Piper was not paid for his work as a rat clearance operative, so he returned and piped away all the children.
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The Pied Piper episode has been commonly identified with both the Children's Crusade and (becausee of all those darn rats) the Bubonic Plague ("Black Death"), but the Hamelin adventure occurred 72 years too late for the former and more than 60 years too early for the latter.
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My understanding was that the latest thinking is that the "Children's Crusade" never actually happened, and that it was instead a confused folk memory at best and a propaganda exercise by the Church at worst.

As for the Pied Piper, one theory is that he was a recruiter for colonisation of Eastern Europe - lots of young Germans moved south and east round about this time. ISTR hearting that one town in Romania still has a lot of Hamelyn surnames.
 
Excerpt from Browning's poem, from the link thereto in its entirety, in caroleaswas's post of 2/2/2005 on this thread:

"And I must not omit to say
That in Transylvania there's a tribe
Of alien people, that ascribe
Their outlandish ways and dress
On which their neighbours lay such stress
To their fathers and mothers having risen
Out of some subterranean prison,
Into which they were trepanned
Long time ago, in a mighty band,
Out of Hamelin Town in Brunswick land,
But how or why, they don't understand."

(One would suspect that post-the fall of Communism, they're nearly all back in Germany now.)
 
A killing in Hamelin. Thought it might fit here. Interesting point is that the dead man went from a State -wide role to being a district administrator. Might be some ratty business involved.

Gunman kills top official in Hamelin, north Germany
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22310888

This archive photo of Mr Butte is from his time as a senior police officer

A gunman in the north German town of Hamelin has shot dead the top district executive before shooting himself fatally, according to police.

The unidentified attacker opened fire on Ruediger Butte, the administrator for Lower Saxony's Hamelin-Pyrmont district, in his office.

The Social Democrat (SPD) politician, 64, was a former director of criminal investigations for Lower Saxony.

Hamelin is famous worldwide for its folk tale of the Pied Piper.

It is not yet clear what motive the gunman had.46
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I've been told that to this day there's a street in Hameln where by custom no music is played, out of respect for the lost children. So when a procession passes by, such as at Fasching or the like, the musicians stop playing until they reach the end of the street again. Now, I've never been to Hameln, at Fasching or any other time, so I have no idea if this is true or not, but it's always struck me as yet another eerie detail of an already very eerie legend.

On that note, I'm inclined to believe something happened there, although I doubt very much that the reality of it was anything too out of the ordinary; the rats were a much later addition, and no one seems to know if the famous children were in fact children at all, at least in our sense of the term. It's been suggested that what was meant by the word in the original reference was a bit metaphorical, as in 'children of the town' meaning only 'inhabitants who had been born in the town', and not necessarily legal minors, and that 'lost' did not mean so much 'vanished' as it did 'moved away', or 'lost to us', that is, the town itself losing inhabitants.
(Radu Florescu goes into all this and more, including the Black Death/Children's Crusade/Translyvanian settlers explanations in his book on the topic.)

With all that being said, however, whatever happened clearly attracted notice of a somewhat odd character a bit later, so that, while the real explanation for it might seem mundane in historical terms, clearly the locals felt it to be remarkable (otherwise why make commemorative inscriptions about it?) and potentially even sinister (otherwise why build up any body of legend at all?).

Curiously, there seems to have been a minor tendency among medieval German fabulists to use plagues of rats (or mice) as a symbol of divine punishment: the legend of Bishop Hatto & the Mouse Tower, which is roughly contemporary with the Hameln legend, is the classic example, but there's a few others as well. So it's possible that the later embroidery is no more than a typical morality fable and its link to actual historical events is extremely tenuous.

Great story either way though. :)
 
Aaron Mahnke’s take on the Pied Piper is pretty good If I remember rightly. It’s been a few years since I listened to this episode, but I seem to remember him talking about the practice of giving up children to be taken away because they can’t afford to be fed, and that the Piper story was a cover story to hide the truth.

https://www.lorepodcast.com/episodes/24
 
Yithian said:
Great little summary of the various grim theories here:

“A.D. 1284 – on the 26th of June – the day of St John and St Paul – 130 children – born in Hamelin – were led out of the town by a piper wearing multicoloured clothes. After passing the Calvary near the Koppenberg they disappeared forever.”

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20200902-the-grim-truth-behind-the-pied-piper?referer=https://www.bbc.com/news
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Whatever happened, If it happened, is a horror.
 
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