• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

The Shroud Of Turin

Re: Shroud of Trun Breaking News April 13 2004

littleblackduck said:
A version of this story appeared on the Breaking News Page today, but I am linking to the BBCi version because it has a much better picture of the backside of the Shroud, where a second image has been discovered.

BBCi Link Second Face on the Shroud of Turin

[and in a followup post;]

The image on the reverse side of the Shroud of Turin seems to be nearly identical to the front side. The face is the clearest part, but there is also some image of the hands.

Are your sure that picture is actually of the back? I've got Wilson's "The Blood and the Shroud" here and plate 7b shows the back view and it looks nothing like that - that appears to just be a stock picture of the front to illustrate the story. As far as I can tell the 'face' only appears from the image at the back when analysed with all sorts of fancy techniques. Its a pity - it got my excited :(

[edit: You can see the 'back' of the shroud here:

http://www.shroud.com/examine.htm

and it looks like what you might imagine it would - a nastily scourged back and the matted hair on the back of a head.]

Emps
 
For those who couldn't be bothered... here's the negative of the pic the Emperor posted
 
I'm not sure if I missed it but they appear to have made that paper available early (all the journals papers are from to download for 30 days after they are published):

Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolo (2004) The double superficiality of the frontal image of the Turin Shroud. Journal of Optics A: Pure and Applied Optics. 6 (6). 491 - 503.

Abstract. Photographs of the back surface of the Turin Shroud were analysed to verify the existence of a double body image of a man. The body image is very faint and the background not uniform; i.e., the signal-to-noise ratio is lower than one. Therefore, image processing, developed ad hoc, was necessary to highlight body features. This was based on convolution with Gaussian filters, summation of images, and filtering in spatial frequency by direct and inverse bidimensional Fourier transformations. Body features were identified by template matching. The face and probably also the hands are visible on the back of the Turin Shroud, but not features related to the dorsal image.

http://www.iop.org/EJ/toc/1464-4258/6/6

You just need to create an account (which is free) - it does look like an interesting article.

Emps
 
History, Mystery in an Image



By Jeff Gottlieb, Times Staff Writer


Some men have hobbies. Others have obsessions. And with enough money, an obsession can turn into a museum and let the whole world in for a peek. Which is why on the second floor of a nondescript office building in Fountain Valley, sandwiched between bicycle shops, sits the Shroud Center of Southern California.

The name doesn't do it justice. It misses the point, and the sign probably wouldn't pull in anyone off the street. What's the big deal about shrouds?

But mention the Shroud of Turin, and eyes widen, and interest is piqued. Is it, as some of the faithful claim, Jesus' burial cloth with an imprint of him made during the Resurrection? Or is it an elaborate fake from the Middle Ages?

Dr. August Accetta, the founder and director of the center, stands on the side of divinity.

Accetta has plowed hundreds of thousands of dollars into the museum and has written four papers on the shroud.

His dismay is obvious when he tells of three preachers who during Easter sermons spoke of Jesus' rising from the dead but didn't mention the Shroud of Turin.

Believers say the shroud, a piece of linen 14 feet, 3 inches by 3 feet, 7 inches — or the more biblical two cubits by eight cubits — shows a bearded man with markings that correspond to Jesus' injuries: wounds on his head, stigmata on his wrist and feet, and a severe wound on his right side.

Accetta uses a phrase coined by a physicist colleague to explain how the image got onto the cloth. He calls it a "mechanical transparency." Accetta says the body changed into "organized energy," and at the moment of Resurrection, the shroud fell through what was the body, picking up the corresponding energy.

Others offer a simpler answer: It's a fraud. And it wouldn't be the first time a religious relic was exposed as fake.

The shroud is generally thought to have first appeared in the 14th century when Geoffrey de Charney, a French knight, returned with it from the Crusades.

About 40 years later, a French bishop became the first of many religious officials, including a pope, to declare the shroud a fake. It was during a period when many people claimed to have unearthed religious relics, such as pieces of the original cross and bones of the disciples. Just last year the Israeli Antiquities Authority said that a box that supposedly held the bones of "James … brother of Jesus" was phony.

The debate over the shroud appeared to have come to an end in 1988 after small pieces of it were subjected to sophisticated radiocarbon tests that determined it had originated between 1260 and 1390.

But like the debate over who killed President Kennedy, claims about the Shroud of Turin never go away.

Accetta will argue that the radiocarbon dating is wrong; how pollens found in the shroud are not found in Europe but in Jerusalem; and how a protective cloth was removed from the back of the shroud, showing another image of a man, not from the back, as one might expect, but from the front.

He says the image penetrates one human-hair width into the shroud on both sides and that the blood type has been identified as AB. No scientist, he says, has been able to duplicate the image.

He traces the shroud back long before the 14th century, starting with a legend that the disciple Thaddeus brought it to Edessa, currently the Turkish city Urfa, where it was hidden and then discovered after a flood. "I've read Edessan archives," Accetta said. "I have them on CD ROM" translated into English. Coincidentally, his brother-in-law owns a house there.

The three-room center is at 8840 Warner Ave., on the second floor, and is open Saturdays and Sundays from 1 to 4 p.m. Admission is for adults and for children 12 or younger.

The rooms are filled with photos of the shroud, some 8 feet tall, including the most famous photo, taken in 1931 and which cost Accetta ,000. There is a lance and a 6-inch crucifixion nail from Roman times.

Accetta, 44, became interested in the shroud as a teenager. He went to college and medical school, becoming a surgical gynecologist. Around 1989, he heard about a shroud research center in North Carolina. After a visit there, he read everything he could find on the subject and began collecting documents, photos and other material.

He opened the Shroud Center in 1996. Since then he has presented his research in France, Italy, Richmond, Va., and Dallas.

The shroud itself, owned by the Church under the care of the archbishop of Turin, is kept in a casket in the Royal Chapel in Turin, Italy. In 1998, when it was last exhibited — behind glass — for public viewing, Accetta was among a group of researchers who spent three hours looking at it. His interest in the shroud has contributed to his spiritual journey.

Accetta grew up Roman Catholic in Long Beach, became an agnostic, joined his wife's nondenominational Christian church when he married and six years ago returned to Catholicism.

In addition to his part-time medical practice, Accetta is studying for a master's in theology from Catholic Distance University, hoping that learning more about early Christianity will help his research.

"I've developed a relationship with the shroud, you might say," he said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-peeled31may31,1,680648.story?coll=la-headlines-california
 
The Shroud's Second Image

New evidence reopens debate about the controversial relic.

By Gordon Govier | posted 12/15/2004 9:00 a.m.

The shroud of turin was widely dismissed as a medieval forgery after radiocarbon tests in 1988 dated it to the 13th or 14th century. Now a growing body of evidence is calling for reassessment of the shroud, which is kept in Turin, Italy.

The latest item comes from the London-based Journal of Optics, published by the Institute of Physics. Two scientists from the University of Padua, Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolo, report in the journal's April edition the discovery of a heretofore-undetected reverse image on the shroud. They say the smaller, fainter image on the back of the cloth depicts just the face and hands. And it's a superficial image, adhering only to the outermost fibers, just like the image on the front. "It is extremely difficult to make a fake with these features," Fanti writes.

'There is only one person it could've wrapped, even though science could never prove who it wrapped.' —Barrie Schwortz

The fact that their study was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal is significant and "a step in the right direction", says Barrie Schwortz, editor of Shroud.com. This is one of the most comprehensive of the many websites devoted to the phenomenon.

Schwortz, who is Jewish, was a shroud skeptic until he served as a photographer for the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP). The five-day project was the most intensive investigation in the history of the image. Besides providing the first public viewing of the media age, the project reinforced the shroud's cachet as a truly unique religious icon.

But then, 10 years later, came the much-heralded carbon-14 tests, confirmed by three laboratories, dating the cloth to the Middle Ages. "It was like dropping an h-bomb, and seeing how long it takes life to come back," says Gary Habermas, chair of the department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University, who has coauthored two books on the shroud.

Science vs. Science

While most people concluded the shroud had been discredited, some significant questions have been raised. One of the main questions was whether the samples chosen came from an area of the shroud that was repaired.

"What if we can prove that the carbon dating didn't sample the original shroud but a rewoven area?" Schwortz asks.

He is awaiting word from another scientific journal, which is currently reviewing a paper on a chemical analysis by a sturp colleague. That colleague, Raymond Rogers, a retired fellow of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, claims the carbon-14 tests were done on a dyed piece of medieval-era linen and cotton. He theorizes the cloth came from an undocumented repair of the shroud. On April 9, 2004, National Geographic suggested that the test samples came from a patch repaired during the Middle Ages.

"It's a case of science vs. science, not faith vs. science," Habermas says. But until they're officially discredited, he says the carbon-14 tests are still the most powerful objection to the validity of the shroud.

Paul Maier, a professor of ancient history at Western Michigan University and an expert on early Christianity, says, "The paper trail doesn't go back far enough." The specific history of the shroud goes back only to the 14th century. "I tend to think something as important as this would've had more attestation [because] the early church was interested in hard objects [connected to the faith]."

Habermas still has doubts about the shroud. But he counters that there are a half-dozen images of Jesus on coins and paintings dating to around the sixth century that bear a remarkable congruency to the face on the shroud.

Some researchers have linked the shroud with reports of an image of Christ discovered hidden in the city walls of the Turkish city of Edessa in the sixth century. The image reportedly was later taken to Constantinople, where it disappeared in 1204.

Pollen from plants native to Turkey and Israel turned up on pieces of sticky tape that the late Swiss criminologist Max Frei had pressed onto the shroud. In recent years two Israeli scientists, Hebrew University botanist Avinoam Danin and Israel Antiquities Authority pollenologist Uri Baruch, said they confirmed Frei's pollen evidence. Danin also claimed to have found images of flowers, unique to Israel, in the shroud.

Quality Material

Since sturp, the closest examination of the shroud occurred in 2002. A Swiss textile expert, Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, remounted the shroud. She replaced a backing dating from 1534.

Flury-Lemberg said she discovered a stitching pattern on the shroud similar to the hem of a cloth found in first-century Jewish tombs at Masada. She said the weave's three-to-one herringbone pattern was authentic for a first-century cloth of unusually fine quality.

Two Israeli archaeologists announced in 1997 that they believed the shroud could not be 2,000 years old because a garment could not last intact for 20 centuries (ct, Oct. 27, 1997, p. 100). About three years later, however, archaeologist Shimon Gibson discovered shroud-wrapped remains in a tomb in Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley. Although this shroud was in tatters, it was submitted to one of the same laboratories that handled the Turin shroud. Scientists dated Gibson's shroud to the first half of the first century, making the tomb occupant a contemporary of Jesus.

Gibson's discovery was largely unheralded. But late last year Gibson released the results of the tests, which showed the tomb occupant had died of Hansen's disease. The shroud had covered the oldest confirmed remains of a leprosy victim.

Like Mel Gibson's movie, The Passion of the Christ, the shroud opens a window into the hearts of those who view it. "There is only one person it could've wrapped, even though science could never prove who it wrapped," Schwortz says. "The biggest irony of my life is that I spend most of my time trying to convince Christians that the shroud is authentic. God does have a great sense of humor."

Gordon Govier is the host and executive producer of The Book & the Spade, a weekly radio program focusing on biblical archaeology.

--------------------
Copyright © 2004 Christianity Today.

December 2004, Vol. 48, No. 12, Page 56

Source
 
Hmmm....I was never convinced by the carbon dating. Not because I'm a True Believer in the Shroud ( :roll: ) but because it just seemed like a flawed experiment. And it wasn't as cut and dried as they tend to make it sound.
 
Update

http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1289491.htm
News in Science - Turin shroud older than thought - 26/01/2005

Wednesday, 26 January 2005

Chemical analysis shows the cloth that formed the Shroud of Turin is up to 3000 years old (Image: NASA)
The Shroud of Turin, the piece of linen long-believed to have been wrapped around Jesus' body after the crucifixion, is much older than radiocarbon tests suggest, according to new microchemical research.

Published in the 20 January issue of Thermochimica Acta, a peer-reviewed chemistry journal, the study dismisses the results of the 1988 carbon-14 dating.

At that time, three reputable laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Tucson, Arizona, concluded that the cloth on which the smudged outline of the body of a man is indelibly impressed was a medieval fake dating from 1260 to 1390, and not the burial cloth wrapped around the body of Christ.

"As unlikely as it seems, the sample used to test the age of the shroud in 1988 was taken from a rewoven area of the shroud. Indeed, the patch was very carefully made. The yarn has the same twist as the main part of the cloth, and it was stained to match the colour," says Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratories and former member of the STURP (Shroud of Turin Research Project) team of US scientists that examined the Shroud in 1978.

The presence of a patch on the shroud doesn't come as a surprise. The linen cloth has survived several blazes since its existence was first recorded in France in 1357, including a church fire in 1532.

Badly damaged, it was then restored by nuns who patched burn holes and stitched the shroud to a reinforcing cloth now known as the Holland cloth.

The latest research

In his study, Rogers analysed and compared the radiocarbon sample with other samples from the controversial cloth.

"As part of the STURP research project, I took 32 adhesive-tape samples from all areas of the shroud in 1978, including some patches and the Holland cloth. I also obtained the authentic samples used in the radiocarbon dating," Rogers says.

It emerged that the radiocarbon sample has completely different chemical properties than the main part of the shroud, Rogers says.

"The radiocarbon sample had been dyed, most likely to match the colour of the older, sepia-coloured cloth. The sample was dyed using a technology that began to appear in Italy about the time the Crusaders' last bastion fell to the Mameluke Turks in 1291.

"The radiocarbon sample cannot be older than about 1290, agreeing with the age determined by carbon-14 dating in 1988. However, the Shroud itself is actually much older," says Rogers.

Microchemistry reveals a different date

Evidence came from microchemical tests, tests that use small quantities of materials, often less than a milligram or a millilitre.

These revealed the presence of vanillin in the radiocarbon sample and in the Holland cloth, but not in the rest of the shroud.

Vanillin is produced by the thermal decomposition of lignin, a chemical compound of plant material including flax, and levels decrease and disappear with time. It is easily detected on medieval linens, but cannot be found in the very old ones, such as the wrappings of the Dead Sea scrolls.

"A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300 and 3000 years old," Rogers writes.

According to Tom D'Muhala, the president of the American Shroud of Turin Association for Research, the new chemical tests produced "conclusive evidence".

"They indicate that the linen shroud is actually very old, much older than the published 1988 radiocarbon date," D'Muhala says.

Shrouded in mystery

Scientific interest in the linen cloth began in 1898, when it was photographed by lawyer Secondo Pia. The negatives revealed the image of a bearded man with pierced wrists and feet and a bloodstained head.

In 1988, the Vatican approved carbon-dating tests. Three reputable laboratories concluded that the shroud was medieval, dating from 1260 to 1390, and not a burial cloth wrapped around the body of Christ.

But since then a growing sense that the radiocarbon dating might have had substantial flaws emerged among shroud scholars.

The history of the cloth has been steeped in mystery. It has survived several blazes since its existence was first recorded in France in 1357, including a mysterious fire at Turin Cathedral in 1997.

Kept rolled up in a silver casket, it has been on display only five times in the past century. When it last went on display in 2000, more than three million people saw it. The next display will be in 2025.
:D
 
"A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300 and 3000 years old," Rogers writes.

So that's between 1,000 BC(BCE) and 700 AD(CE). That's a very generous margin of error.

And why is it that most of the references to this dating technique seem to be in the context of the Shroud of Turin, saying that it disproves the C14 dating?
 
Turin Shroud May Be Older Than Thought:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4210369.stm


The Shroud of Turin is much older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a peer-reviewed journal.
A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.

The author dismisses 1988 carbon dating tests which concluded that the linen sheet was a medieval fake.

The shroud, which bears the faint image of a blood-covered man, is believed by some to be Christ's burial cloth.

The radiocarbon sample has completely different chemical properties than the main part of the shroud relic

Raymond Rogers says that his research and chemical tests show the sample used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage.

This was responsible for an erroneous date being assigned to the original shroud cloth.

"The radiocarbon sample has completely different chemical properties than the main part of the shroud relic," said Mr Rogers, who is a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, US.

The linen sheet was damaged in several fires since its existence was first recorded in France in 1357, including a church blaze in 1532.

It was restored by nuns who patched the holes and stitched the shroud to a reinforcing material known as the Holland cloth.

In his study, Mr Rogers analysed and compared the sample used in the 1988 tests with other samples from the famous cloth.

Microchemical tests, which use tiny quantites of materials, demonstrated that the shroud must be older than previously thought.

These tests revealed the presence of a chemical called vanillin in the radiocarbon sample and in the Holland cloth, but not the rest of the shroud.

Vanillin is produced by the thermal decomposition of lignin, a chemical compound found in plant material such as flax. Levels of vanillin in material such as linen fall over time, so it provides one way to date the shroud.

"The fact that vanillin cannot be detected in the lignin on shroud fibres, Dead Sea scrolls linen and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old," Mr Rogers writes.

"A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old."

In the 1988 study, scientists from three universities concluded that the cloth dated from some time between 1260 and 1390. This ruled it out as the possible burial cloth that wrapped the body of Christ.

That led to the then Cardinal of Turin, Anastasio Alberto Ballestrero, admitting the garment was a hoax.

But since, several attempts have been made to challenge the authenticity of these tests. Researchers using high-resolution photography claimed they had found indications of an "invisible" reweave in the area used for testing.

"The sample tested was dyed using technology that began to appear in Italy about the time the crusaders' last bastion fell to the Mameluke Turks in AD 1291," said Mr Rogers.

"The radiocarbon sample cannot be older than about AD 1290, agreeing with the age determined in 1988. However, the shroud itself is actually much older."


More on www.shroud.com
 
So, this is where my post went to!

The only thing wrong with this statement is that I recall seeing a BBC documentary shown in 1988 when the cuttings were taken from the Shroud. The documentary showed a white garbed scientist cutting from the Shroud's actual cloth and not from any Medieval patches.

I've emailed the author of www.shroud.com to clarify and confirm this....but no reply yet....
 
Hmm...I remember the suggestion at the time that they'd taken the sample from the 'wrong place'.

Mind you, it's not exactly good practice to tell the investigating laboratories "Sample A comes from a 2000 year old mummy; Sample B comes from mediaeval cloth; and Sample C is from the shroud." Sort of taints the investigations, really. Then again, the weave of the shroud is fairly recognisable anyway.

I also remember there being something about long discussions going on between the three labs, as they didn't all agree with each other anyway.
 
The sampling procedure was pretty badly flawed as it was carried out in private and if they failed to get a bit of the actual shroud as well then that seems like a major mistake.

Although it sounds a reasonable method for checking the samples this "dating" sounds distinctly dodgy - I'd be suspicious of something based on decay other than the actual decay or radioactive elements (e.g. either radiometric or trapped charge dating) as they rely on a raft of assumptions and callibrations (hence the braod range on the date) and other older methods lik obsidian hydration dating have been pretty much ruled as useless over longish periods of time. I'd suspect this will also rely on tempertature and water content of the surrounding environment and I do wonder how things like the fire can really be accomodated.

[edit: It would certainly amuse me if the religious-types who bend over backwards to disprove more secure dating techniques accept this result without question ;) ]

Posted on: Saturday, 5 February 2005, 21:00 CST

Local Scientist Dates Cloth to Christ's Time

Thermochemist admits he can't debunk hypothesis that Shroud of Turin covered Christ's body after crucifixion

If God hand-picked someone to prove to the world that Christ's burial cloth was not a hoax after all, Raymond Rogers probably wouldn't be the first name to come to mind.

Rogers belonged to the Episcopal Church for a few years and studied about Christ on his own. But he could never quite find the proof he needed to support a "deep, abiding faith" in religion.

His disbelief caused a rift with his wife. They divorced. He stayed devoted to what he knew: science.

"I am a scientist," he said. "This is the way I live."

Over the years, the Los Alamos thermochemist gained a reputation for his work with archaeologists. That's why a priest called him in 1977. He wanted Rogers to take a look at the Shroud of Turin. Rogers had never heard of it.

The priest sent booklets that told about a 1412-foot-long linen cloth wrapped around Christ after the Roman crucifixion. It bore his imprint. "They were so pious, I just about threw them out," Rogers said of the booklets.

Rogers noticed a photograph that made him curious. It showed scorched spots on the cloth caused by a church fire in 1532. If the shroud was a fake -- made with paint of some kind -- the material wouldn't look like that. An expert on how heat affects materials, Rogers knew this.

He agreed to join the Shroud of Turin Research Project. He brought 32 samples from the shroud, which is stored at a museum in Torino, Italy, back to his home in Los Alamos and published articles. But he quit after the leader of the project screamed at him, "Ray, you are not a soldier for Christ!"

In 2000, new information prompted him to reopen the case. Some "true believers" sent him a paper that suggested the samples tested were from a section rewoven in medieval times.

"I can prove they're full of blank, blank, blank," Rogers recalled thinking. "I still had archive samples from the right area."

In a peer-reviewed scientific journal, Thermochimica Acta, he published startling findings on Jan. 20.

In the 1980s, scientists from three universities concluded the cloth wasn't very old. The linen sheet was determined to be a medieval fake.

But this month, Rogers said he determined the cloth was between 1,300 and 3,000 years old -- which could have easily put it at the time of Christ.

"I was really embarrassed that I had to admit that these people were right," Rogers said. "This (patched) area was not chemically or physically similar to the rest of the cloth. I could prove it in spades."

The samples used in the 1988 tests came from a section of the cloth that was rewoven in the Middle Ages, according to Rogers.

Rogers said he hasn't become an instant believer, however. At 78 and battling terminal cancer, he's sticking to science.

"Here you've got blood spots. You've got a real shroud. You draw your own conclusions," he said. "I am not a theologian. I don't want to be a theologian. I want to keep my objectivity toward this thing, and so I don't go past this point."

Rogers admits he can neither prove nor disprove many things. He has determined the drops of blood are authentic -- but until he gets results from the DNA tests he ordered from a international expert, he cannot be sure a human shed that blood.

Another problem: Jesus wasn't the only man crucified. And Rogers has struggled with the authenticity of the Bible. "I cannot accept any of the written stuff (the biblical accounts of Christ's death) as gospel," Rogers said. "But I can say the scientific evidence does not rule it out."

He knows he is walking a fine line. And he's nervous about it. "I say I know a lot about the chemistry and the physics of this object. It's not like a UFO or a ghost. I could pick this thing up and look at it under a microscope, and I could take samples of it. It's not one of these spooky things. It's a real piece of material," he said.

"If I could reject the hypothesis that this was the shroud of Jesus, I would have done it. But being an honest guy -- and it's embarrassing sometimes to be honest when what you're finding out agrees with the lunatic fringe or the true believers -- but to be perfectly honest, I'd have to say at this moment that I cannot prove that this is not the cloth that was used to wrap the body of Jesus that was crucified."

Journey to Turin

Long ago, Rogers wanted to be an archaeologist.

When he was a chemistry student at the University of Arizona, he wondered why the archaeology field wasn't making more use of chemistry. He considered becoming an archaeologist, but his archaeology professors said he'd make a better living as a chemist.

But he took classes with top archaeologists. When he could, he ran tests on the residues inside ancient pottery.

His career took him to Los Alamos National Laboratory, where he was a chemist from 1952 to 1988. And word got around that he was willing to look at odd samples. When he could, he tested artifacts.

One day, Norris Bradbury, then the lab director, stopped by to talk. Rogers said Bradbury gave him permission to analyze materials for archaeologists and museums, even though such research wasn't part of the lab's mission.

The thermochemist got drawn into major discoveries. He became an expert on early-man sites in the Southwest. "I did so much of it, they elected me to be a fellow for it," he said, referring to an esteemed status given to some lab scientists.

At work, explosive components of nuclear weapons were Rogers' main focus. What he learned about the radiation effects on organic materials and the chemical properties of polymers served him well with the shroud research, he said.

But in other ways, he was not prepared for this high-profile artifact.

"It is the most frustrating, and in some cases degrading thing, I've been involved in," Rogers said.

At the lab, his colleagues were what he described as "ethical, rigorous, hard-nosed scientists," such as Enrico Fermi.

When he got involved with the shroud investigation, he saw some of the "shallowest, most idiotic" science he had ever seen. "There were people who have been working on the shroud who would have sold tickets to the crucifixion," he said. "There are an awful lot of dishonest people involved in this."

He says he's "an old grump," and his body doesn't feel as good as he'd like. But at least his mind is active. His fascination is swelling again. He is full of ideas for more research papers to write on the shroud.

"You always have some ammunition you haven't fired yet," Rogers said.

Source: The Santa Fe New Mexican

Source

The paper is:

Rogers, R.N. (2005) Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the shroud of turin. Thermochimica Acta. 425 (1-2). 189 - 94.

Abstract

In 1988, radiocarbon laboratories at Arizona, Cambridge, and Zurich determined the age of a sample from the Shroud of Turin. They reported that the date of the cloth's production lay between A.D. 1260 and 1390 with 95% confidence. This came as a surprise in view of the technology used to produce the cloth, its chemical composition, and the lack of vanillin in its lignin. The results prompted questions about the validity of the sample.

Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud.

Source

The paper is in a complimentary edition of the journal so everyone should be able to grab a copy.
 
I reckon it was an early design for a line of novelty kitchen aprons. instead of a muscle apron or saucy undies apron, they marketed it as the 'skinny hippy' apron.
 
I mentioned, on another thread entirely, and in another context, that I am probably the only person on these boards (but I could be wrong!) who has actually seen and handled the Turin Shroud.

I have been invited to speak more about that experience at some time, and I will. It's a long and strange story, and I haven't really got time just at present to sit and dredge up the whole odd experience. It was years ago, and distance lends the proceedings even more atmosphere than they had in actuality.

What I will just quickly tell you all is that, in the course of my work with antique and modern textiles, I have seen and handled many different type of fabrics and fibres. The older a piece of cloth is, the more fragile it becomes. Burial wrappings and bandages from graves dating to around the time of Christ are invariably cobweb thin. Often they resemble nothing more than mere tatters of fibre. The so-called shroud is an extremely robust piece of cloth, and if it is, as claimed, from the time of Christ, then a miracle has indeed occurred!

The abiding memory of seeing and handling (albeit with protective gloves, face mask and tweezers) the shroud, is of a heavy, yellowish-grey length of what is obviously linen. It has the weight and close woven characteristics of a modern bedsheet or tablecloth. To many many scientists whose field this is, the idea that this cloth has survived for over 2000 years is, simply, ludicrous.

So,.... more of all this at a later time....
 
Hecate,

I very much look forward to reading your future posts on this. I love this board because of the breadth and diversity of those who frequent it.

:D
 
Hurry back!

Hecate, if you have actually handled the shroud then you are in a much better position to comment than anyone else on this board. Please hurry back and give us a full run-down of your experience and your responses to it.
 
Is this Jesus?

By BRYAN PATTERSON
13feb05

IS this what Jesus of Nazareth looked like as a boy?

Forensic experts in Italy have come up with this computer-generated sketch of a fair-skinned young Jesus with wavy hair and dark eyes, based on historical data and images from the controversial Shroud of Turin.

The image was created with the same technology used by police to age the faces of long-time missing people or wanted criminals.

Using the reverse of ageing technology, the police experts gauged how the man wrapped in the shroud might have looked at the age of 12.

Facial proportions between the nose and eyebrow, and the shape of the jaw are identical to those on the shroud, a piece of linen some believe is the actual burial cloth of Jesus about 2000 years ago.

"While some features, such as the colour of the eyes and the hair's length, cut and colour, are arbitrary, others come directly from the face impressed on the shroud," the forensic experts said in a statement.

"We made a rigorous effort based on the Shroud of Turin. But it's clear that the data at our disposal were limited. Let's say we have made an excellent hypothesis."

Computer enhancement has revealed the imprint of a face of a suffering man on the Turin cloth.

The Italian team took that faint image and used computer modelling to develop a picture, making assumptions about the features at a younger age.

The sketch was revealed on a documentary about Jesus shown on Italian television.

This picture was created at the same time new research was published on the shroud.

Scientists are casting doubt on some carbon dating testing made on strips from the shroud in 1988. They now believe it could be at least 2000 years old.

The shroud, with the image of a man that can only be seen in negative form, is venerated by many Christians as physical evidence that Jesus was resurrected.

An "autopsy" by doctors on the shroud reveals a 180cm bearded Caucasian male about 77kg, with puncture wounds on the head.

The speculative picture contrasts with a recent attempt to reconstruct Jesus' face using a 2000-year-old Jewish skull, software and the latest forensic techniques. That revealed a dark-skinned man.

Source
 
Actually, from my understanding, he is more likely to be swarthy. Southern Caucasians aren't very fair, and are more likely to have been living around the region at the time. Then there's the whole "Black Israelite" argument (which says that Jesus was actually a North African).

In any case, I don't think it's terribly likely he was what we would call "fair".
 
Emperor said:
Is this Jesus?

The speculative picture contrasts with a recent attempt to reconstruct Jesus' face using a 2000-year-old Jewish skull, software and the latest forensic techniques. That revealed a dark-skinned man.

Yeah. God knows a darkie Jesus would ruin everything!

:roll:
 
last updated: 3/24/2005

Shrouded in Mystery No More?

March 23, 2005 — The Shroud of Turn has mystified scientists for years. Now a literature professor from Idaho says he can prove it's a fake.

For centuries, faithful have flocked to the Shroud of Turin, which is – believed to be the burial cloth of Jesus with the imprint of his body. The image is a photographic negative. When reversed, IT PRODUCES a clear picture of a bearded man.

But when the church let scientists do carbon dating on it, they reported the cloth was only about 650 years old, not 2,000.

Still, no one could explain how medieval artists could make such an image. Now a professor from the Midwest says he's figured out one way it could have been done.

Nathan Wilson/New St. Andrews College: "I assumed that if a medieval forger could do it, all the tools he'd have available to him to solve it would also be available to me. I should be able to do the same."

Literature professor Nathan Wilson tried putting white paint on a pane of glass, hoping to create the same effect.

Nathan Wilson/New St. Andrews College: "I painted a picture of Christ or a Christ-like face on the glass, and placed it over a dark linen... and left it in the sun for ten days."

The sun bleached the dark cloth except for where the paint blocked the sunlight. The result: a negative image, that – when reversed – showed what appeared to be a bearded man.

Nathan Wilson/New St. Andrews College: "The beautiful thing about this theory is that a medieval would not need to understand photo-negative imaging at all."

Experts have yet to examine Wilson's solution. But the old question, how medieval forgers could have faked this image now has a plausible answer.

(Copyright 2005 by ABC News and WPVI-TV 6. All rights reserved.)

Source

Teacher Has Theory on the Shroud of Turin


Thursday March 24, 2005 1:46 PM

By NICHOLAS K. GERANIOS

Associated Press Writer

SPOKANE, Wash. (AP) - Nathan Wilson is an English teacher with no scientific training, but he thinks he knows how Jesus' burial cloth was made and he thinks it's not a physical sign of the resurrection.

In other words, in Wilson's estimation, the Shroud of Turin is a fake - produced with some glass, paint and old cloth. And that theory, especially with Easter this weekend, has so-called ``Shroudies'' a buzz.

``A lot of religious people are upset,'' said Wilson, 26, who teaches at New Saint Andrews College in Moscow, Idaho.

Wilson is himself an evangelical Christian but said his views on the shroud don't change his faith.

``I'm a Bible-believing Christian who believes in the resurrection completely without a doubt,'' he said.

The English instructor believes a medieval forger could have painted the image of a crucified man on a pane of glass, laid it on the linen, then left it outside in the sun to bleach the cloth for several days. As the linen lightened, the painted image of the man remained dark on the cloth, creating the equivalent of a photo negative.

Wilson wrote his theory in Books and Culture, a magazine for Christian intellectuals. It was picked up by several Web sites and is being debated in shroud circles. Wilson's Web site received more than 100,000 hits from 45 countries in the first week of his article's publication.

Shroud expert Dan Porter said that while Wilson's theory is ingenious, it does not produce images identical to those on the 14-foot-long, 3-inch-wide strip of linen.

``It is not adequate to produce something that looks like the shroud in two or three ways,'' said Porter, who lives in Bronxville, N.Y. ``One must produce an image that meets all of the criteria.''

Porter contends sun bleaching cannot have produced the image, which he and many others say is the result of chemical reactions on the cloth.

``A problem with Wilson's hypothesis is that sun bleaching merely accelerates bleaching that will occur naturally as the material is exposed to light,'' Porter wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press. ``Eventually, Wilson's sun bleach shroud image will fade into the background as exposure equalizes the bleaching.''

The shroud has often been displayed, sometimes in bright sunlight for days at a time, and no such image fading has occurred, Porter said.

Porter and others also question whether panes of glass at least 6 feet long were produced in medieval times, as Wilson's theory would require.

Radiocarbon tests of the Shroud of Turin were done in 1988, and dated the cloth at A.D. 1260 to 1390. But Raymond Rogers of Los Alamos National Laboratory recently argued that the tested threads came from later patches and might have been contaminated. Rogers calculated that the shroud is 1,300 to 3,000 years old and could easily date from Jesus' era.

Wilson said he wants to write a novel about his theory. The forger or perhaps forgers, Wilson theorizes, probably robbed a grave and pulled the aged shroud off a body, then crucified someone to obtain the blood and study the wounds of Jesus.

``Most likely it involved some real wicked people,'' Wilson said.

---

On the Web:

Wilson's Web site: http://www.shadowshroud.com

Porter's Web site: http://www.shroudstory.com

Source
 
Large flat panes of glass in medieval times? I think not! Even into the 19th century glass was only available in small and rather lumpy portions, I believe.

Any glass experts out there?
 
THE SHROUD OF TURIN

What is this crap I am reading that the SHROUD OF TURIN MIGHT BE A FAKE? Notice the word MIGHT. THey are saying MAY BE and MIGHT BE and people are swallowing it as truth. That's like me saying I MIGHT GO TO THE STORE NOW and not going at all, but since I said I MIGHT...I MAY HAVE GONE!!!?!?!??!?!?
WHat the hell!
Bloody frickin' scientists...screw up everything.

WW
 
Re: THE SHROUD OF TURIN

WonderWoman said:
Bloody frickin' scientists...screw up everything.

WW

Oi!! :sob:

That's correct though, what this is is merely another THEORY, based very closely on the Leonardo Da Vinci idea. It isn't that original, and it certainly does not constitute proof in any sense (it does not mean his theory is not worth consideration though). I gather Wilson's hoping to get a book out of it-perhaps that explains the over-blown claims ;)-
 
Shrouded in controversy

Burial cloth of Jesus or cynical counterfeit? The enigmatic linen known as the Shroud of Turin has befuddled clerics, scientists and observers for six centuries — and the debate still rages, writes John Moore

Jan. 12, 2006. 03:13 AM

TURIN, ITALY—Sylvana Gribaldi has seen the Shroud of Turin twice, during public expositions in 1998 and 2000. Both occasions were overpowering emotional experiences.

"During the 1998 exhibition, I used to go into the church (where the shroud was on display) in the evenings and sit there and pray for an hour or so," says Sylvana. "I could sense a real presence."

At the next exhibition, in the jubilee year of 2000, she was able to get even closer to Turin's most famous artifact.

"I was very happy during the last exposition because I was selected to read prayers during the procession as thousands of people passed the shroud. It was quite moving," she says.

Such expressions are apt to draw a skeptical squint from people uncomfortable with such devotion, and the shroud, which bears the double image of a bearded man whose body exhibits the scars of crucifixion, certainly has just such a polarizing effect on people.

Some say that the 4.5-metre-long, 1.1-metre-wide piece of linen is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, miraculously branded with his image at the moment of his resurrection. Others denounce that as superstitious nonsense and say the shroud is a medieval counterfeit.

The debate has simmered ever since the shroud first appeared in the historical record some 6 1/2 centuries ago. The shroud was definitely identified in 1353 as the property of Geoffrey de Charny in France (but some proponents claim to have found mention of it in earlier sources). Even then, some clerics denounced it as a device to extort money from pilgrims.

The de Charny family sold it to Duke Louis of Savoy in 1453, who kept it at Chambery, France, until 1578 when his descendant Emanuele Filiberto moved it to Turin. The Savoy family retained ownership of the shroud until 1983 when it became the property of the Vatican in accordance with the will of Umberto II, the last king of Italy. Pope John Paul II decreed that the shroud would remain in Turin.

It has survived three fires, including one in 1997, despite suffering some scorching and water damage. It has been examined by scientists and subjected to an array of tests including carbon-14 dating, microscopy, chemical analysis, photography and computer imaging. But that has only intensified the debate as just about everybody with an opinion, scholarly or otherwise, has tried to out-debunk each other. Fact or forgery, the shroud continues to fascinate.

"It's a scientific mystery," says Guglielmo Perego, an expert on the shroud and Turin's architecture, who is accompanying me on a visit to the majestic cathedral and adjacent chapel which houses the shroud. "All the rigours of scientific study haven't been able to explain the mysteries of the shroud. If you believe in the Bible, if you believe in Jesus' resurrection, you have less of a problem explaining it."

The cathedral is almost empty on this foggy Sunday morning. Mass is in progress, but there are fewer than 20 worshippers.

There's a larger group of tourists at the shroud's display case. A sign asks visitors to approach silently and respectfully. People are kneeling in prayer at the railing, while others light candles (electric candle-shaped lights because of the fear of fire).

The shroud is kept in a casket-like container behind thick glass. Inside, Guglielmo explains, the cloth "sits on an aluminum bed with a crystal covering. There's no light, no air, just a mixture of inert gases and every quarter of an hour, the pressure, temperature and the mix of the gases is adjusted by computer."

Atop the box sits a thorn branch, and on the wall behind there is a reproduction of a famous photograph taken in 1898 which revealed the figure of the shroud to be a negative image — a shocking revelation that started the momentum for scientific inquiry.

There were no guards, but Guglielmo said there are usually volunteer plainclothes police officers on watch and additional security measures will be in place during the Olympics in February, although the shroud will not be on display (the next public exhibition is not scheduled until 2025).

An anteroom in the church contains a full-size reproduction and photographic exhibits. As an elderly woman, her eyes moist with tears, touches a photograph of the shroud, then makes the sign of the cross, Guglielmo speaks of the remarkable coincidences that evoke such fervour.

"We have a lot of probabilities," he says, looking at the reproduction. "This is the body of a crucified man. Was it Jesus? Was it not Jesus? What are the odds that this person would be killed with exactly the same torture, exactly the same wounds on the head and the back? Everything here corresponds exactly to the sufferings and the death of Jesus. We are not sure, but then, we are not sure of anything, are we?"

A museum dedicated to the shroud — and to examining the debate — is in the crypt of the church. It houses a fascinating collection of artifacts and exhibits that present a chronology of the shroud's history and a discussion of the photographic, scientific and religious record. There's even a remarkable bas relief sculpture which allows blind visitors to "feel" what the shroud looks like.

A video gives a fascinating description of the images on the cloth, then people can tour the exhibits, using an audio guide that resembles a cellphone.

David Anderson, a 24-year-old culinary student from Cincinnati, is pondering one of the displays, which shows a three-dimensional computer image of the man on the shroud. He looks perplexed.

"I can't say that I believe in this," David asserts, then hestitates and shakes his head. "But there's something about it ... you just can't pass over it and say it's all baloney."

That's a common reaction among the people at the museum. Pope John Paul II called the shroud "a challenge to our intelligence" which "forces questions to be raised." And so it does.

If it's a painting, it's a work of singular brilliance: a negative image created centuries before photographic negativity was discovered. A work that displays properties of three-dimensionality and perfect symmetry.

If it's the naturally-created image of a crucified man — as some scientists argue — who was he? Under what circumstances was he forced to endure such torture? I look at the familiar face with its expression in the peaceful repose of death, although the body bears the scars of torment ... bloody scratches on the forehead, whip marks on the back, barbaric nail holes in the wrists and ankles. I feel a sense of pity.

And if it really is the burial cloth of Jesus, its historical and religious significance is colossal. We may never know the truth, but it does make you think.

I ask Sylvana, who's a volunteer guide at the museum, her views on the shroud, the research and the controversy. She flashes a wry smile, the kind that's a bit unnerving, as if she knows something I don't.

"Scientific research can certainly help us to understand the history of the shroud ... but in the end, it's really a question of faith. You either believe, or you don't believe."

Source
 
Posted on Wed, Feb. 01, 2006

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/13765494.htm

Olympic host also home to Shroud of Turin

RICHARD N. OSTLING
Associated Press

Just as Salt Lake City was famous long before the 2002 Winter Olympics because of its ties to the Mormon Church, so the 2006 host city has been renowned for its own religious connection: For the last 428 years it's been home to the world's most celebrated holy relic, the Shroud of Turin.

Could this linen cloth, as believers think, have wrapped the body of the crucified Jesus Christ at the moment he rose from the grave?

Take your pick. The shroud is either:

A) Astonishing physical evidence of the Easter miracle;

B) Fascinating medieval folk art; or,

C) A fabulous fraud.

Don't expect any help from the Roman Catholic Church as you decide. The Vatican remains steadfastly neutral on this popular religious puzzle.

Olympics tourists might stroll to the Piazza San Giovanni and the cathedral where the more than 14-foot-long shroud is encased in a huge, climate-controlled steel box under bulletproof glass. But none will see the storied and closely guarded relic. The next display is scheduled 19 years hence, and Turin's Cardinal Severino Poletto barred even private viewings for dignitaries at the games.

Fascination with the shroud has spread beyond Roman Catholics to secular scientists and even some evangelical Protestants. There are some 28 organizations of devotees in the United States alone, five in Italy and 10 elsewhere.

The shroud's mystique stems from its sepia image of a wounded, wiry, bearded man. The faint picture is formed by discoloration of the outer layer of the fibers. Scientists have reached no agreement on how hoaxers could have produced this figure.

Other uncanny aspects: Pollen embedded in the cloth came from plant species found only in Turkey and the Holy Land. Blood stains seen on the cloth contain chemicals from human blood and weren't painted on. The catch is that the stains are red - but old blood turns black.

The shroud's existence can only be traced back to 1357 when it went on display in Lirey, France. It was controversial even then. The local bishop declared the exhibit a fraud and a subsequent bishop warned the pope in 1389 that the shroud was a "product of human handicraft."

Pope John Paul II's Vatican was given ownership in 1983 and approved various scientific tests in 1988. The chief result seemed to settle the authenticity question. University laboratories in Oxford, England, Tucson, Ariz., and Zurich, Switzerland, tested samples for carbon 14 decay and dated the origin at 1260 to 1390.

"It is most unlikely that this object is the authentic burial shroud of Jesus," the 2003 edition of the New Catholic Encyclopedia concludes.

But that didn't end the argument. Pro-shroud scientists proposed that the 1988 samples were skewed by contamination so better tests are needed.

There things stood, more or less, until a year ago when Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist at Los Alamos National Laboratory, reported further tests in the technical journal Thermochimica Acta. (He died shortly after publication.)

Rogers suspected contamination and, more important, reported that threads from the 1988 samples contain no vanillin, a compound in flax that gradually disappears. By his calculations, the shroud is 1,300 to 3,000 years old. Though it's possible the cloth dates from Jesus' lifetime, Rogers noted, actual connection to Jesus can never be proven.

Rogers told interviewers that "competent scientific efforts to understand the shroud have a bleak future" because church authorities "will never allow another series of tests."

Rogers' research was just one question mulled over at an international shroud conference in Dallas last September - a meeting that received Pope Benedict XVI's blessing. Thirty scholars presented papers, turning up a couple shreds of shroud news:

_ The image of the body's back on the cloth lacks flattening of the calves and buttocks, indicating the body was upright, not lying down, when the image was formed.

_ It may be that first known exhibit didn't occur in 1357, after all.

Of course, there's still more to say on the subject. Turin will host a shroud symposium in May.

ON THE NET

Shroud sites:

http://www.shroud.com

http://www.shroudofturin.com
 
You can't keep a good shroud down...! ;)

Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin
By Jonathan Petre, Religion Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:04am GMT 25/02/2008

The Oxford laboratory that declared the Turin Shroud to be a medieval fake 20 years ago is investigating claims that its findings were wrong.

The head of the world-renowned laboratory has admitted that carbon dating tests it carried out on Christendom's most famous relic may be inaccurate.

Professor Christopher Ramsey, the director of the Oxford University Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, said he was treating seriously a new theory suggesting that contamination had skewed the results.

Though he stressed that he would be surprised if the supposedly definitive 1988 tests were shown to be far out - especially "a thousand years wrong" - he insisted that he was keeping an open mind.

The development will re-ignite speculation about the four-metre linen sheet, which many believe bears the miraculous image of the crucified Christ.

The original carbon dating was carried out on a sample by researchers working separately in laboratories in Zurich and Arizona as well as Oxford.

To the dismay of Christians, the researchers concluded that the shroud was created between 1260 and 1390, and was therefore likely to be a forgery devised in the Middle Ages.

Even Anastasio Alberto Ballestrero, the then Cardinal of Turin, conceded that the relic was probably a hoax.

There have been numerous theories purporting to explain how the tests could have produced false results, but so far they have all been rejected by the scientific establishment.

Many people remain convinced that the shroud is genuine.

Prof Ramsey, an expert in the use of carbon dating in archeological research, is conducting fresh experiments that could explain how a genuinely old linen could produce "younger" dates.

The results, which are due next month, will form part of a documentary on the Turin Shroud that is being broadcast on BBC 2 on Easter Saturday.

David Rolfe, the director of the documentary, said it was hugely significant that Prof Ramsey had thought it necessary to carry out further tests that could challenge the original dating.

He said that previous hypotheses, put forward to explain how the cloth could be older than the 1988 results suggested, had been "rejected out of hand".

"The main reason is that the contamination levels on the cloth that would have been needed to distort the results would have to be equivalent to the actual sample itself," he said.

"But this new theory only requires two per cent contamination to skew the results by 1,500 years. Moreover, it springs from published data about the behaviour of carbon-14 in the atmosphere which was unknown when the original tests were carried out 20 years ago."

Mr Rolfe added that the documentary, presented by Rageh Omaar, the former BBC correspondent, would also contain new archeological and historical evidence supporting claims that the shroud was a genuine burial cloth.

The film will focus on two other recorded relics, the Shroud of Constantinople, which is said to have been stolen by Crusaders in 1204, and the Shroud of Jerusalem that wrapped Jesus's body and which, according to John's Gospel, had such a profound effect when it was discovered.

According to Mr Rolfe, the documentary will produce convincing evidence that these are one and the same as the Shroud of Turin, adding credence to the belief that it dates back to Christ's death.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... oud125.xml
 
Thing is, you could tell which sample was the Shroud, even without them being labelled, because of the distinctive warp and weft thingy. Left-handed herringbone pattern, if I remember correctly. Whereas the other control samples were a piece of mummy linen and a mediaeval tablecloth (or somesuch).

Anyway, point being, any lab would have known when they were looking at Shroud, and when they weren't. And doesn't the act of observation affect the experiment? ;)
 
Back
Top