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The Vatican Assasins

What I find uncomfortable about the writing about the Nazi mass killing policy is that it it was not primarily anti-jewish, the primary purpose was eugenic. Slavs, homosexuals and those regarded as mentally deficient were also slaughtered. Despite this, in western europe, the holocaust is casually portrayed as being specifically aimed at the jews. People who probe a little deeper find out about the other deaths but they will always be a minority.

Certainly the Zionists made full use of the propoganda opportunity to press their case for a "Jewish" homeland and certainly much of the western world went along with it. Why this happened is a moot point. Guilt probably played some part but I suspect that it also removed a source of racial violence, all of the european countries have had some history of pogrom - either official or unofficial.
 
There is no guarantee that the the single largest population killed in the holocaust was jewish BTW, since there was no record kept on the extermination of the disabled, after 1937, although it is *believed* to have been continued both in Germany and the occupied territories until 1945. That means, since in all likelyhood the slaughter commenced around 1933-34, and carried on for 11 years, there was time for more than 6 million people to die. Alas there is little proof of any of this, just hearsay.

On the topic of the Vatican, there was a concentration camp for Slavs, Romanys and Jews in the former Yugoslavia, run by Francsican Monks.


Sources

That search covers most of the online refs ive seen

H
 
Arguments which claim that there is "no proof" are suspicious arguments. (I.E. There is "no proof" that the main victims of the Holocaust were Jews.)

To assert that there is "no proof" implies that whatever "proof" has already been placed in evidence is spurious. It becomes an impossible task to present "proof' which is acceptable, when you have already decided what is acceptable proof. In other words you will accept nothing which does not support your conclusions.

As for the main targets of Nazi Germany being Jews, it was part of Hitler's formula for "re-claiming" his idea of a purely German homeland; in his eyes, a Jew could not be a German by virtue of "race", even if a Jew was born on German soil. Nationality, in Hitler's scheme, had nothing to do with birthright, only what he saw as constituting an "Aryan" based on race.

Even if a reasonable person attempted to encompass some sort of exclusionary formula into an argument for some type of racial "purity", this definition would be faulty because Jews are not a race. Caucasions may be Jews. There are Ethiopian Jews. There is even a small group of east Indian Jews. If one wishes, one may convert to Judaism, regardless of race. (Remember Sammy Davis Jr.?) However, Jews do not proselytize. (When was the last time a Jew knocked on your door handing out literature in an attempt to get you to convert?)

You may freely criticize Jews & Israel without being called anti-semitic. But to criticize and then say that the problem or fault lies in being Jewish would be considered anti-semitic. In other words, if you generally condemn a group of people on one basis, I.E. being a Jew, and then support a criticism with the explanation that it's because of that Judaism, I would consider it not only a weak criticism, I would consider it anti-semitic. Kind of putting the argument cart before the reasoning horse, if you will.

No one worth their debating salt will hide behind the "anti-semitic" apron strings, I guarantee it.

(In the interest of fair disclosure, my heritage is one half Jewish.)

Sudi
 
The problem is that there are many people not "worth their salt", "anti-semitic" and "racist" are thrown out as killing arguments in all sorts of debates :(

You say that people can convert to Judaeism, sudi. This is true but only of the most liberal of sects.

Ethiopian Jews have great difficulties in being assimilated into the Jewish state as do those from China.

Back on thread. If a wealthy man, who happens to be jewish, is part of the "World conspiracy" saying so does not make you anti-semitic. Similarly to say that they are Christian or American or Chinese does not make you anti- Xtian, american or a Sinophobe. Unfortunately your observation can be used to feed the prejudices of those less discriminating. It does not make the original observation wrong but it can be used to discredit it.

It stikes me that if there is a "world conspiracy" (something I still doubt being more in favour of the cock-up theory of history) then those involved would use existing networks to further its aims
 
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Intaglio points out:

"The problem is that there are many people not "worth their salt", "anti-semitic" and "racist" are thrown out as killing arguments in all sorts of debates."
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You are very right. Some people will try to quash opinions or a fair debate by applying labels which are inflammatory and prejudicial.

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Intaglio also points out:

You say that people can convert to Judaeism, sudi. This is true but only of the most liberal of sects.

Ethiopian Jews have great difficulties in being assimilated into the Jewish state as do those from China.
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To the best of my knowledge, anyone can convert to Judaism, just as one would convert to Catholicism. (Meaning the the process of "conversion" in these religions entails specific courses of supervised study with an open acceptance of the doctrines of the faith. Unlike the route one might take in, say, adopting a Protestant church to attend. You have specifics to go through to become a "confirmed Lutheran", for instance, but it is not a "conversion," per se.)

And even if it is a "liberal" sect which allows conversions, (still making the non-proselytizing element more emphatic, but still disproving that one must be "born a Jew,") it is still Judaism. Hitler would not have discriminated between Orthodox or Reform Jews, I don't believe.

As far as the assimilation of the differently cultured Jews into the Israeli community, from what I recollect in my readings, it was/is because the language differences make it difficult, not that the people themselves are ostracized any more than any culture isolates those from significantly different backgrounds. The Ethiopian Jews were admitted to the country, and given an apartment and funds, like every other refugee.

But I'm not living in Israel and can't begin to know what it must be like for all the various factions trying to exist in the tiny space. I'm no spokesperson by any means.

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Intaglio rightfully points out:

Back on thread. If a wealthy man, who happens to be jewish, is part of the "World conspiracy" saying so does not make you anti-semitic. Similarly to say that they are Christian or American or Chinese does not make you anti- Xtian, american or a Sinophobe. Unfortunately your observation can be used to feed the prejudices of those less discriminating. It does not make the original observation wrong but it can be used to discredit it.

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I agree entirely.

If Jew murders someone, calling him a murderer and a Jew would be entirely accurate and not anti-semitic, merely a statement of fact.

Where we get into trouble with the arguments about Jews and facts is that there are many debatable and stereotyped "facts" floating around. (One of which is the hogwash about Jews controlling the world. If Jews controlled the world and the financial markets, especially, then why did my dad struggle 45 years at the same company installing telephone switching equipment? If some say there must be a certain number of non-rich Jews to make the Elders of Zion look good, then Jews can't win. Or, then IF there are some Jews controlling everything and some Jews are left with installing phones, then it is not Jews who are controlling things, just some criminal faction who happen to be Jews. But it can't be both ways, I know from personal experience. :)

I also agree with you that there are easier ways to force a particular political system on others, and I think the U.S. and at one point, Russia, would have done so if there was any truth to the theory of shadow governments, etc. And if there is a controlling regime somewhere, why are they letting me type these things right now....?

Oh! I forgot! I could be part of the plan ;)


Thanks for your reply, I love a good discussion & debate.

Sudi
 
Judaism allows anyone of any ethnicity to convert, regardless of denomination, as far as I can tell. I know a woman here in the States that is of Irish Catholic background that has converted to Orthodox Judaism. Strangely enough, I'm not even sure she was required to deny Christ. At least it sounded that way. Interesting note: part of the conversion ceremony involves a baptism (called a "mikvah," I believe). Judging from the examples of Orthodox and Catholic services I've seen, she's exchanged one set of ritual for another quite similar one. Kind of a pointless exchange, IMO; still, at least she cares one way or the other.
 
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