These Roads Lead... Where?

[Mythopoeika]

I've never understood God's powers to involve foreseeing the future. I personally regard Revelation as a result of overdoing the magic mushrooms, even though I am a Christian. It would be an extremely cruel God who put that apple tree there knowing the poor saps would eat from it.

God created Satan, then gave him the job of torturing people who'd done the slightest of sins.
Yep, he's cruel alright.

 

[CuriousIdent]

Well, this thread has gone off on a pretty massive tangent...

[Edit: Massive Tangent Now Removed To Its Own Thread--Yith]

Thank you for bringing this one back into the realms of message board visibility, Schrodinger's Zebra. A truly fascinating thread.

BackintheBush (in case you return to these boards) this was a joy to read. Such a lot of detail conveyed in a very readable manner and such a personal testimony to have shared. Thanks for doing that, genuinely. You make me want to investigate British Columbia myself, it's such a picture you paint of the region.

I read this thread some years ago, thank you for bringing it to my attention again! It's one that really stayed with me. Apologies if this has already been alluded to or is too obvious to be worth mentioning but I think the following passage really stands out to me in terms of this being a movement in time rather than just location:

It seems to me that the lady in white was concerned that @backinthebush might see himself or his daughter at the trailer park. She had no concerns about him seeing or being seen by the unresponsive native gentlemen on their previous meeting. I feel like by whatever means and for whatever reason she had access to his personal timeline, rather than the locations in general.

I have to admit that once I'd read that BackintheBush's first grandchild was born at that trailer this was exactly where my mind wandered also.

"No we can't do that!" - suggests the plausibility of some kind of system of rules governing what the girl was able to show during these experiences. It very much feels like a 'Please Look, but do not touch' scenario. I find this fascinating. And obviously it's a huge distance to have traveled to have gotten there in the first place.

There's a third idea, and one I favour. That if you do travel back it means you already did and were a part of that time/event when it first occurred. Anything you do will therefore already have been done by you and be a part of the history you already know.

For example, if you go back to save Abraham Lincoln or whatever, inevitably this means you WERE THERE when he was originally shot and your attempts to save him inevitably will be/were futile. Or - even worse - contributed to getting him killed.

This is the model of least consequence, certainly. A closed loop of events. In which, to use this example, if we were to think of BackintheBush's Trailer Park/miniature forest journey to be a true step forward into his future? At some point when that future became BackintheBush's present it would be plausible that his younger and older selves were in the same locale at the same time. Sure, he did not see his older self during that experience, but that may also be why the little girl insisted that they not stray further. Otherwise a very confusing encounter could possibly have occurred.

I feel a little uncomfortable suggesting such things. My apologies for playing what if with your life experiences here, BackintheBush. I mean no disrespect in doing that.

 

[Schrodinger's Zebra]

One of the things that made my mind as it is (sorry if I mentioned this before) was an experiment James Burke did showing the impossibility of a two dimensional being understanding a three dimensional object.

Brings to mind the book Flatland

I just went to the bookshelf to have a look for it, and I can't find it. All I can find is a book called Flatterland.

 

[Austin Popper]

Brings to mind the book Flatland

I just went to the bookshelf to have a look for it, and I can't find it. All I can find is a book called Flatterland.

There's a sequel?

 

[Carl Grove]

Well, this thread has gone off on a pretty massive tangent...

[Edit: Massive Tangent Now Removed To Its Own Thread--Yith]

Thank you for bring this one back into the realms of message board visibility, Schrodinger's Zebra. A truly fascinating thread.

BackintheBush (in case you return to these boards) this was a joy to read. Such a lot of detail conveyede in a very readable manner and such a personal testimony to have shared. Thanks for doing that, genuinely. You make me want to investigate British Columbia myself, it's such a picture you paint of the region.





I have to admit that once I'd read that BackintheBush's first grandchild was born at that trailer this was exactly where my mind wandered also.

"No we can't do that!" - suggests the plausibility of rules governing what the girl was able to show during these experiences. It very much feels like a 'Please Look, but do not touch' scenario. I find this fascinating. And obviously it's a huge distance to have traveled to have gotten there in the first place.





This is the model of least consequence, certainly. A closed loop of events. In which, to use this example, if we were to think of BackintheBush's Trailer Park/miniature forest journey to be a true step forward into his future as he did not see his future during that experience the likelihood of his future self glancing around outside the mobile home and spotting a figure looking very much like his younger self standing next to a girl in white warning him that they 'couldn't do that' what not be possible.

I feel a little uncomfortable suggesting such things. My apologies for playing what if with your life experiences here, BackintheBush. I mean no disrespect in doing that.

There are cases where children have seen their future selves, not realising what they were seeing until they grew up and saw their younger selves. It seems difficult to say that anything is impossible when we look at such cases. But the really interesting part of this narrative is the implication that some people/entities are in a privileged position and can appear to ordinary humans and lead them through experiences in time and space without difficulty.

 

[Schrodinger's Zebra]

There's a sequel?

I guess so!

I just wish I knew (a) where my Flatland book has got to, and (b) where this Flatterland book came from..

 

[EnolaGaia]

... I just wish I knew (a) where my Flatland book has got to, and (b) where this Flatterland book came from..

Is Flatterland what you get if a notably large houseguest sits on your copy of Flatland?

 

[Dave landfill]

Should have been finishing the bathroom today but came upon this thread around 11 this morning. Not too much progress in the bathroom, but hopefully my wife will understand if I can convince her to read it.

Well, apologies to backinthebush, I'm sure that in reality you sound nothing like the Morgan Freeman/Jason Lee-my-name-is-earl narration I seem to have adopted, but what a fascinating and eloquently written story.

I have to admit, I'm kind of snagged up on the alternator device.

Assuming that the time-line of revelations isn't necessarilly linear- and if time itself isn't, why should they be- could it be that this is an inter-generational story? Cutting to the chase, could this be an invention yet to come into being? A perpetual motion device possibly?

 

[Carl Grove]

Should have been finishing the bathroom today but came upon this thread around 11 this morning. Not too much progress in the bathroom, but hopefully my wife will understand if I can convince her to read it.

Well, apologies to backinthebush, I'm sure that in reality you sound nothing like the Morgan Freeman/Jason Lee-my-name-is-earl narration I seem to have adopted, but what a fascinating and eloquently written story.

I have to admit, I'm kind of snagged up on the alternator device.

Assuming that the time-line of revelations isn't necessarilly linear- and if time itself isn't, why should they be- could it be that this is an inter-generational story? Cutting to the chase, could this be an invention yet to come into being? A perpetual motion device possibly?

Maybe someone will remember this, but I seem to recall a UFO contactee reporting being shown some strange device and spending the rest of his life trying to duplicate it and get it working -- can't recall his name, though. Makes one wonder, also, about other inventions that have "come to people" as it were, out of the blue. And if someone did have an experience like this, and did create a machine based upon what he had seen, would he have the courage to admit where the idea really came from?

 

[Dave landfill]

Maybe someone will remember this, but I seem to recall a UFO contactee reporting being shown some strange device and spending the rest of his life trying to duplicate it and get it working -- can't recall his name, though. Makes one wonder, also, about other inventions that have "come to people" as it were, out of the blue. And if someone did have an experience like this, and did create a machine based upon what he had seen, would he have the courage to admit where the idea really came from?

Tesla, Da Vinci, Bohr, Ramanujan are just a few names who weren't afraid to admit that their discoveries weren't all blood, sweat and tears.

It's also baffled me how many *inventions* seem to be invented or discovered by more than one individual at the same time.

 

[Carl Grove]

Tesla, Da Vinci, Bohr, Ramanujan are just a few names who weren't afraid to admit that their discoveries weren't all blood, sweat and tears.

It's also baffled me how many *inventions* seem to be invented or discovered by more than one individual at the same time.

Good point. Even if they didn't have any ostensibly weird source of inspiration, it is possible that the idea for the invention was transmitted to them telepathically and unconsciously.

 

[Dr_Baltar]

Good point. Even if they didn't have any ostensibly weird source of inspiration, it is possible that the idea for the invention was transmitted to them telepathically and unconsciously.

It seems a little unkind to me, to suggest that these inventors needed their ideas transmitted to them rather than that they were just...you know...clever people.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Tesla, Da Vinci, Bohr, Ramanujan are just a few names who weren't afraid to admit that their discoveries weren't all blood, sweat and tears.

It's also baffled me how many *inventions* seem to be invented or discovered by more than one individual at the same time.

It's important to bear in mind that 'discovery' (e.g., of a natural phenomenon; of a theoretical innovation) isn't the same thing as 'invention' (e.g., of a novel artifact). The former is abstract and need not involve anything other than abstractions; the latter involves at least a credible visualization of a tangible thing.

Accordingly, 'discovery' need not be driven nor contextualized by 'real / everyday' circumstances or needs, as is the case for 'invention'.

The linkage of 'invention' with identifiable needs / opportunities and tangible artifacts makes it easier to understand how multiple independent actors may be 'inventing' the same thing(s) at a given time.

 

[Carl Grove]

It seems a little unkind to me, to suggest that these inventors needed their ideas transmitted to them rather than that they were just...you know...clever people.

Yes, undoubtedly clever, but the question raised was of the same ideas appearing at the same time to different people. It may be that the ideas may have been floating about for years and these people just happened to make breakthroughs at the same time. On the other hand, when really original ideas like the calculus (Newton kept it secret but Leibniz revealed it) appeared out of nowhere at around the same time, it does make the eyebrows raise a bit.

 

[CuriousIdent]

There are cases where children have seen their future selves, not realising what they were seeing until they grew up and saw their younger selves. It seems difficult to say that anything is impossible when we look at such cases. But the really interesting part of this narrative is the implication that some people/entities are in a privileged position and can appear to ordinary humans and lead them through experiences in time and space without difficulty.

Certainly an interesting notion, isn't it? BackintheBush did mention that some of the area he was in had proper connections to Native American tribes. I know it's very much a romanticised notion, but I do sometimes wonder if (and as a Brit I do feel that we have to shoulder a lot of the blame for it) there were some kind of forces beyond our understanding in North America at the point British and Spanish settlers arrived. Forces which the Native Americans were in touch with, but which we just wrote off as the ramblings of a culture we decided to be inferior to our own.

It's entirely plausible that the girl BackintheBush encountered was... purely that. A girl. A human being, who just so happened to lead him to some interesting and unexplainable places.

But there is also the wonder if she wasn't some kind of spirit or guide. A benevolent trickster, showing things to mortals for reasons known only to them.

 

[Carl Grove]

Certainly an interesting notion, isn't it? BackintheBush did mention that some of the area he was in had proper connections to Native American tribes. I know it's very much a romanticised notion, but I do sometimes wonder if (and as a Brit I do feel that we have to shoulder a lot of the blame for it) there were some kind of forces beyond our understanding in North America at the point British and Spanish settlers arrived. Forces which the Native Americans were in touch with, but which we just wrote off as the ramblings of a culture we decided to be inferior to our own.

It's entirely plausible that the girl BackintheBush encountered was... purely that. A girl. A human being, who just so happened to lead him to some interesting and unexplainable places.

But there is also the wonder if she wasn't some kind of spirit or guide. A benevolent trickster.

If half of the things that James Two Hats, the Heyoka that helped me in my Rougham research, were true, then one would have to agree. When you consider that the Native Americans were, by normal standards, isolated from the monotheistic traditions of the Middle East and Europe, you have to be impressed by their universal acceptance of the Great Spirit concept. Jimmy said, regarding his own dramatic time slip, that the major teachings imparted to him by the sages of 10,000 years ago were how to identify and use sources of energy. I think you may be right that the girl was a human, but one who had acquired the special knowledge that enabled her to take BackintheBush on a special journey that overcame time and space.

 

[severs1966]

There's a sequel?

There's two! On the one hand, Flatterland is the "proper" sequel. There is another story (just a short story, not a novel) that came about because of Flatland, called The Planiverse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Planiverse

The basic premise of this story would probably appeal to many Forteans. It supposes that a programmer writing a simulation of a 2-D world accidentally creates a model that is identical to a "real" 2-D world and, due to forces and processes not understood, this functions as a medium of communication with that world. In other words, he creates a "closed-circuit TV link" by accident. This puts the protagonist in contact with a 2-D being who explains his world.

The innovation is that the 2-D world conatcted isn't a world in "plan view" like in Flatland, where movement is "north, south, east and west"; it is in "side view", where movement is "sideways and up&down". It's great fun.

The story was written by Martin Gardner, the mathematician who did all the work on flexagons that turn up in the wonderful popular "fun maths" book Mathematics and the Imagination.

...When you consider that the Native Americans were, by normal standards, isolated from the monotheistic traditions of the Middle East and Europe, you have to be impressed by their universal acceptance of the Great Spirit concept.

Native Americans, despite the stereotypes pushed by cowboy films, did not have a single belief system or a universal acceptance of the same axioms of the non-material aspects of life. The "Great Spirit" principle is essentially a depiction of the belief system of a small number of plains people, translated into terminology that Europeans (basically western christians) can easily understand.

 

[Carl Grove]

There's two! On the one hand, Flatterland is the "proper" sequel. There is another story (just a short story, not a novel) that came about because of Flatland, called The Planiverse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Planiverse

The basic premise of this story would probably appeal to many Forteans. It supposes that a programmer writing a simulation of a 2-D world accidentally creates a model that is identical to a "real" 2-D world and, due to forces and processes not understood, this functions as a medium of communication with that world. In other words, he creates a "closed-circuit TV link" by accident. This puts the protagonist in contact with a 2-D being who explains his world.

The innovation is that the 2-D world conatcted isn't a world in "plan view" like in Flatland, where movement is "north, south, east and west"; it is in "side view", where movement is "sideways and up&down". It's great fun.

The story was written by Martin Gardner, the mathematician who did all the work on flexagons that turn up in the wonderful popular "fun maths" book Mathematics and the Imagination.





Native Americans, despite the stereotypes pushed by cowboy films, did not have a single belief system or a universal acceptance of the same axioms of the non-material aspects of life. The "Great Spirit" principle is essentially a depiction of the belief system of a small number of plains people, translated into terminology that Europeans (basically western christians) can easily understand.

Delete "universal" and substitute "widespread."

 

[Swifty]

Every thread needs a tenuously theme related tune ..

 

[Swifty]

God created Satan, then gave him the job of torturing people who'd done the slightest of sins.
Yep, he's cruel alright.

If we're pretending the bible is truth, Lucifer was one of God's angels who got the sack but kept God's business contacts details, changed his name a few times and has been trying to poach God's staff and customers ever since .. heaven work politics ..

 

[Dr_Baltar]

If we're pretending the bible is truth, Lucifer was one of God's angels who got the sack but kept God's business contacts details, changed his name a few times and has been trying to poach God's staff and customers ever since .. heaven work politics ..

I believe that, although a Hebrew word used a few times throughout the Bible in reference to other people is often translated as Lucifer, the references to the fallen angel never mention that name.

 

[Swifty]

I believe that, although a Hebrew word used a few times throughout the Bible in reference to other people is often translated as Lucifer, the references to the fallen angel never mention that name.

Dunno .. I wasn't there

 

[CuriousIdent]

Every thread needs a tenuously theme related tune ..

Works for me.

 

[backinthebush]

Well, this thread has gone off on a pretty massive tangent...

[Edit: Massive Tangent Now Removed To Its Own Thread--Yith]

Thank you for bringing this one back into the realms of message board visibility, Schrodinger's Zebra. A truly fascinating thread.

BackintheBush (in case you return to these boards) this was a joy to read. Such a lot of detail conveyed in a very readable manner and such a personal testimony to have shared. Thanks for doing that, genuinely. You make me want to investigate British Columbia myself, it's such a picture you paint of the region.





I have to admit that once I'd read that BackintheBush's first grandchild was born at that trailer this was exactly where my mind wandered also.

"No we can't do that!" - suggests the plausibility of some kind of system of rules governing what the girl was able to show during these experiences. It very much feels like a 'Please Look, but do not touch' scenario. I find this fascinating. And obviously it's a huge distance to have traveled to have gotten there in the first place.





This is the model of least consequence, certainly. A closed loop of events. In which, to use this example, if we were to think of BackintheBush's Trailer Park/miniature forest journey to be a true step forward into his future? At some point when that future became BackintheBush's present it would be plausible that his younger and older selves were in the same locale at the same time. Sure, he did not see his older self during that experience, but that may also be why the little girl insisted that they not stray further. Otherwise a very confusing encounter could possibly have occurred.

I feel a little uncomfortable suggesting such things. My apologies for playing what if with your life experiences here, BackintheBush. I mean no disrespect in doing that.

 

[backinthebush]

Gosh, I'd love to know, too. I think about this story all the time. It's one of my all-time favorite IHTM threads.

I'm still alive and active. Haven't been on this site for quite a while as the result of other things in my life in the interval. In fact I had more or less forgotten about it until three weeks ago while sitting on my deck enjoying a lovely sunny afternoon and an odd object drifted slowly across the sky. It resembled objects I had seen in two areas many years before and many miles (or kilometers) from the little remote village where I now live in Northern Ontario. I should perhaps post some photos I took of them. I'm not sure I'm following the proper procedure here for posting but I hope it is. Any advice would be welcomed.

 

[hunck]

I'm still alive and active. Haven't been on this site for quite a while as the result of other things in my life in the interval. In fact I had more or less forgotten about it until three weeks ago while sitting on my deck enjoying a lovely sunny afternoon and an odd object drifted slowly across the sky. It resembled objects I had seen in two areas many years before and many miles (or kilometers) from the little remote village where I now live in Northern Ontario. I should perhaps post some photos I took of them. I'm not sure I'm following the proper procedure here for posting but I hope it is. Any advice would be welcomed.

Welcome back! By all means post the photos - probably best on the UFO thread.

 

[henry]

or you know keep them on here ...

 

[backinthebush]

I'm sure he's fine, but I really don't mind if he doesn't come back.
Some people just need a platform or audience to tell their story, and I think the FTMB was perfect for him. All the responses he received here were positive, and he was treated with great respect by everyone, and I truly think that meant a lot to him.
He's out there now, in the wilderness, so expect something in 2020ish.
Happy travels backinthebush!

Well Simon, you must be somewhat psychic. It's not yet 2020 but I've returned to the flock, so to speak. I thank you for the wishes for happy travels, and for the greater part my travels have been happy, though mixed with an amount of tragedy. I am indeed in the wilderness and grateful for that in many respects. Several months ago I went on a trip to several large cities and came away feeling even more thankful that I live in a tranquil and peaceful village where
children and animals can roam at will as we did when I was a child those long years ago. And you are quite correct in your statement that folks were responsive, treated me with respect and gave me assistance when required. And that did mean a lot to me in a number of ways. My best regards to you.

 

[backinthebush]

Canadian here from Ontario but now living in calgary. Seriously considering driving out to BC to see that man in stone next summer....

Well, this thread has gone off on a pretty massive tangent...

[Edit: Massive Tangent Now Removed To Its Own Thread--Yith]

Thank you for bringing this one back into the realms of message board visibility, Schrodinger's Zebra. A truly fascinating thread.

BackintheBush (in case you return to these boards) this was a joy to read. Such a lot of detail conveyed in a very readable manner and such a personal testimony to have shared. Thanks for doing that, genuinely. You make me want to investigate British Columbia myself, it's such a picture you paint of the region.


I have returned. Not sure that I'm typing this in the right place. I appreciate your very positive comments. I don't know where you hail from, but I will say that I hope you have the opportunity to explore British Columbia. It's a very diverse province with several mountain ranges (I don't actually recall how many) fabulous fruit farming areas, and of course the ocean with its wildlife ranging from tiny creatures that light up the waters on moonless nights to the gigantic whales - and the seafood is fabulous as is the fruit. I am sad that I must say my first grandson has passed away, a brilliant young man who had just graduated university. I sorely miss him spending time here in the remote north exploring. We kept a boat which we had named Brain Damage, at a small remote lake that where he loved to drive the boat and explore while I sang him the silliest songs as he steered and laughed. Nearly a thousand people turned up for his funeral. My consolation I suppose you could call it, was that he had spent a week with me before travelling to visit the village where he was born and was welcomed by folks there.


I have to admit that once I'd read that BackintheBush's first grandchild was born at that trailer this was exactly where my mind wandered also.

"No we can't do that!" - suggests the plausibility of some kind of system of rules governing what the girl was able to show during these experiences. It very much feels like a 'Please Look, but do not touch' scenario. I find this fascinating. And obviously it's a huge distance to have traveled to have gotten there in the first place.





This is the model of least consequence, certainly. A closed loop of events. In which, to use this example, if we were to think of BackintheBush's Trailer Park/miniature forest journey to be a true step forward into his future? At some point when that future became BackintheBush's present it would be plausible that his younger and older selves were in the same locale at the same time. Sure, he did not see his older self during that experience, but that may also be why the little girl insisted that they not stray further. Otherwise a very confusing encounter could possibly have occurred.

I feel a little uncomfortable suggesting such things. My apologies for playing what if with your life experiences here, BackintheBush. I mean no disrespect in doing that.

 

[backinthebush]

If half of the things that James Two Hats, the Heyoka that helped me in my Rougham research, were true, then one would have to agree. When you consider that the Native Americans were, by normal standards, isolated from the monotheistic traditions of the Middle East and Europe, you have to be impressed by their universal acceptance of the Great Spirit concept. Jimmy said, regarding his own dramatic time slip, that the major teachings imparted to him by the sages of 10,000 years ago were how to identify and use sources of energy. I think you may be right that the girl was a human, but one who had acquired the special knowledge that enabled her to take BackintheBush on a special journey that overcame time and space.

May I ask what your Rougham research involved? And where did you encounter a Heyoka? Certainly not possible in the UK?