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Those darned Moon bases.

Here's a big can o'worms. Anyone got a tin opener?

I unfortunately caught a few minutes of the film Cowboys & Aliens the other night. In it, they showed the aliens as harvesting/mining gold. The idea of that has only just sunk in. What a wonderful idea.

What if they use if for something and are scouring the galaxy looking for gold deposits. Maybe this accounts for ancient cultures worshipping gold and ancient alien sightings in gold rich areas.

Was Eldorado just a petrol station? Have our deposits of gold been depleted and so their visits are now just the equivalent of the guys on the TV program Gold Rush - picking through other peoples tailings and leftovers.

And could there be link to ancient aliens, the Knights Templar, Oak Island and the Appalacian mountains?

(That last bit should definitely be said in a History Channel voiceover)
 
rynner2 said:
Hmmm... How do these 'Atmospheric Scoops' work, exactly...?
Click to expand...
NASA did some studies on this concept; see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propulsive_fluid_accumulator
One interesting design uses solar power to normalise the orbit of an atmospheric skimmer. The act of atmospheric collection causes drag on the satellite, so you need a source of energy to raise the satellite's orbit and prevent atmospheric entry. Ideally you could balance the satellite at skimming altitude using solar power alone, although the NASA studies included nuclear power sources (and never got to fly, probably for that reason).
 
I
Ringo said:
Here's a big can o'worms. Anyone got a tin opener?

I unfortunately caught a few minutes of the film Cowboys & Aliens the other night. In it, they showed the aliens as harvesting/mining gold. The idea of that has only just sunk in. What a wonderful idea.

What if they use if for something and are scouring the galaxy looking for gold deposits. Maybe this accounts for ancient cultures worshipping gold and ancient alien sightings in gold rich areas.
Click to expand...
A geologist would probably point out that most of the gold found in the Earth's crust was brought here by asteroids; gold is a siderophilic element, so normally would be found only in the Earth's core. So the asteroids are a better source of gold for a space-faring civilisation.
see also
http://www.cnbc.com/2013/11/21/precious-metal-hunters-look-to-outer-space.html
 
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Ringo said:
Here's a big can o'worms. Anyone got a tin opener?

I unfortunately caught a few minutes of the film Cowboys & Aliens the other night. In it, they showed the aliens as harvesting/mining gold. The idea of that has only just sunk in. What a wonderful idea.

What if they use if for something and are scouring the galaxy looking for gold deposits. Maybe this accounts for ancient cultures worshipping gold and ancient alien sightings in gold rich areas.

Was Eldorado just a petrol station? Have our deposits of gold been depleted and so their visits are now just the equivalent of the guys on the TV program Gold Rush - picking through other peoples tailings and leftovers.

And could there be link to ancient aliens, the Knights Templar, Oak Island and the Appalacian mountains?

(That last bit should definitely be said in a History Channel voiceover)
Click to expand...
Aliens being here for the gold is big in the Annunaki aliens idea.
 
INT21 said:
BBrain,

I think we know, or should know, that there is no actual dark side. It is just a convention to refer to the unseen (from Earth) side as 'Dark'.

Pink Floyd also refer to a trip to Sirius Minor; but I doubt they actually mean it.

INT21
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree! Most people should know, but I've met quite a few who don't, but still felt able to talk about aliens on the Moon as if they were a proven fact.

It's not important to this thread, but I expect one or two readers actually didn't know. But now they do...

:)
 
BBrain,

..but still felt able to talk about aliens on the Moon as if they were a proven fact...

And some even state that there are complete cities and lakes of water there as well.

Makes one wonder about the value of today's education; or some people's logical powers.

INT21
 
The Moon also rotates, did you know that?
 
And it librates, as shown here
Lunation_animation_April_2007.gif
 
The Moon's axis of rotation is somewhere inside the Earth, or very close to it.

It does not rotate about it's own polar axis. If it did we would see all of it.

This is one of those cases where the exact meaning of a word is important.

INT21
 
I must disagree.

I can bring the test down to Earth by imagining (or actually having) a brick on a trolly going around me while I stand in the centre of a circle.

The same side of the brick always faces me. I do, obviously, have to rotate around my own centre point to maintain a view of the brick.

If the brick was rotating around it's own polar axis (on the trolley) then I would see all sides of the brick as it went around; but I don't as the brick, whilst it travels around me (revolving around my polar axis ?) does not itself rotate.

If I were to attach a rope to the trolly and gradually pull it in toward me then the same situation holds right until the brick was inside me (most uncomfortable) and was actually at my polar axis. then it would rotate around my polar axis). But I would have then to be outside this rotation to observe it.

INT21
 
A brick in a trolley? Try using a jam jar with a label on. Move the jam jar in a circle around an object, say, an orange. See if you can keep the label turned towards the orange without turning the jam jar.
 
Xanatic,

Of course you can.

The jar, at the start, will have one side, the labeled side, towards you.

I could even fix a wooden pole to the jar and turn the jar around me and the label will still be facing me.

I couldn't do this if the jar was rotating on it's own polar axis.

I take it you haven't actually tried the test you suggest ?

INT21
 
Xanatic is right on this. The moon revolves around the Earth but it also rotates around it's own axis. The weird (and rather coincidental) thing is that it revolves at the same speed as which it rotates which is why the same side is always facing us.

We've discussed this before. Check out this video explaining it:
 
Ringo,

I aught to add here that I am aware of the confusion; and I think it is all down to definition.

We need to define what you mean by the Moon's own axis. Where do you envisage the axis ?

Let me expand this a bit.

If you were positioned on a line that extends from the centre of the Earth through the centre of the Moon, and you were at a point beyond the moon, would you see the Moon rotating beneath you ?

Surely it would have to be if it was rotating about it's own polar axis.

INT21
 
Wouldn't a better question be what it would look like if you hovered above the north pole of the Moon?
 
INT21 said:
If you were positioned on a line that extends from the centre of the Earth through the centre of the Moon, and you were at a point beyond the moon, would you see the Moon rotating beneath you ?

INT21
Click to expand...
Not if you were also moving, in such a way as to keep the Moon between you and Earth. (NB, this would not be an orbital movement - you would need a powered spacecraft to maintain such an alignment.)

You would see the opposite side of the moon to the side seen from Earth.

Generally speaking, in astronomy, things like Rotation and Revolution are defined relative to the distant stars.
So when Ringo says "The moon revolves around the Earth but it also rotates around it's own axis", these movements are measured against the background of (so-called) Fixed Stars.

And it's not a coincidence that the Moon's rotation has the same period as its revolution - that's a consequence of Tidal Locking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking

(Most satellites in the solar system are tidally locked to their primaries.)
 
Runner2,

...Not if you were also moving, in such a way as to keep the Moon between you and Earth. (NB, this would not be an orbital movement - you would need a powered spacecraft to maintain such an alignment.)

Indeed you would.

...You would see the opposite side of the moon to the side seen from Earth....

Exactly. But if the Moon was rotating around it's own axis (Equivalent to the Earth's North/South pole axis) then you would see the Moon rotating beneath you.

If , as Xanatic suggests, you were perched above the Moon's North pole then you would see half the moon that faced the Earth, and half that faced away (the so called dark side), but crucially, this view would not change.

You would, naturally, see the Earth rotating,

INT21
 
INT21 said:
...You would see the opposite side of the moon to the side seen from Earth....

Exactly. But if the Moon was rotating around it's own axis (Equivalent to the Earth's North/South pole axis) then you would see the Moon rotating beneath you.

INT21
Click to expand...
This is nonsense! Learn to understand real science.

I've spent a lot of my life studying (and teaching) maths and physics, and every authority agrees that the moon orbits in the same period that it rotates, and this is why it always turns one face towards Earth, and the other away.
 
Xanatic,

Right now I am doing this using a cup for the Earth and a pepper pot to represent the Moon. With a penguin (toy) above it to represent you sat above the pole.

I can see what you mean. But it all goes back to the definition of 'rotates on it's axis'.

If you rotate the pepper pot then the label rotates away from the cup.

The conclusion I have to come to is that it is all relative to the position of the observer.

But it has been an interesting discussion.

INT21
 
Rynner2,

...and every authority agrees that the moon orbits in the same period that it rotates,..

Who is saying it doesn't ?

The key word you used here is 'orbits'.

I am not talking about orbits, but about the rotation of the body that is doing the orbiting.

INT21
 
Let's add an extra dimension to this.

Xanatic and my penguin are sat above the Moon's north pole. The are facing along the direction of travel, I.e. the direction of the orbit around the Earth. They like the breeze in their faces.

And they are going around the Earth along with the Moon. Where is their axis of rotation ?

Every time they glance down at the Moon, it is in the same relative position to them as it was the time before. And the Earth is off to the right. Off to the left is Rynner2 in his space craft.

INT21
 
Motion is always relative to the observer. However if you stood on the Moon and looked up, you would se the stars rise and set, like on Earth.
 
(Now look what I've started with all my the-moon-has-no-dark-side stuff! I had no idea sensible people would find it so confusing.)
 
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