Three Silent Ships

[Quetzelcoatl]

Three 40,000 ton ships (thats BIG for anyone not familiar with shipping tonnage) are circling the worlds oceans in radio silence (illegal under maritime law).

have been for months.

they allegedly contain Saddams WOMD

story here

why hasnt the Royal Navy / US Navy / SAS boarded them? The reported fear that they may be scuttled doesnt hold water in my view.

(and can we please not turn this into a pro - anti war thread?)

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting.

I wonder, if true, why this has not received any coverage elsewhere?

 

[Quetzelcoatl]

Interesting.

I wonder, if true, why this has not received any coverage elsewhere?

I heard the tail end of the story on R4 this morning while I was distractedly searching for a stick to chastise a cat which had stolen me sock.

nothing on the irritating BBC News website yet so I did a Google and came up with this.

the story hasnt broken in the US yet cos they're all still tucked up under their Star Wars duvets

 

[ninja_cat]

Its been on BBC News 24 quite alot so I'm suprised BBCi havn't got it together to put it on the website yet.

As to the risk of scutteling the ship - if it has loads of the missing Chemicals Colin Powell talked about, then you probably wouldn't want to mix it into the Indian Ocean.... (obviously big if there)

 

[Quetzelcoatl]

As to the risk of scutteling the ship - if it has loads of the missing Chemicals Colin Powell talked about, then you probably wouldn't want to mix it into the Indian Ocean.... (obviously big if there)

I agree, but a couple of points dont ring true, which is why I posted it on Conspiracy'

1. The Indian Ocean is one of the worlds biggest and will absorb much crap (as it already does). While obviously undesirable to dump shiploads of Chem weapons in the sea, would the effects be truly catostrophic for the environment? An oil spill mid ocean has less impact cos the oil doesnt reach the shores where much wildlife / plantlife is concentrated.

2. the SBS or SAS could surely take over a slumbering ship manned by a skeleton crew? Then Blair / Bush would have the smoking gun they are longing for?

 

[Anonymous]

Four silent ships...

I certainly know of four silent ships. They are submarines, Vanguard class, over 150 metres long, and carry powerful WOMDs called Trident nuclear missiles. They are British, and known as "our ultimate guarantee of national security" (from Royal Navy website).
Funny that when we have them, it's for a noble and lofty purpose, but when any black or Arab nation has something remotely similar, they are an evil terrorist menace which must be wiped from the face of the earth, with much bombing and killing if required. :headbutt:

Bill Robinson

 

[ninja_cat]

2. the SBS or SAS could surely take over a slumbering ship manned by a skeleton crew? Then Blair / Bush would have the smoking gun they are longing for?

Probably not slumbering now the Independant has told them that the UK and US are watching them. They'll be setting the scuttling charges now. Even the SBS probably wouldn't be able to stop them. Most of the training they seem to do is in relation to hijackings and smuggling normal illegal materials - I doubt they would guarantee that they could take a ship on the high seas with no risk of it being scuttled.

As to the Indian Ocean being capable of absorbing the gunk that maybe in the holds of these ships - wouldn't like to try that out, best leave it in.

Funny though, how this pops up as a second resolution is being drawn up for UN consideration....

 

[Anonymous]

An excellent point, Bill. One which I happen to agree with. However, I think ethelred is trying to steer this thread clear of pro/anti argument so I'll continue in that spirit.

(He's chastised me once before and he can be quite strict! Oo-err.)

The only other mention I could find of this item was a slightly sensationalised version on the Sky News Site, although that bastion of journalism then cited the Independent as the source.

I wonder why the US/UK pro-war alliance have not made a point of focusing the media in this particular area? One would have expected them to have seized this opportunity to advance the WMD/hidden weapons case. Although we have no idea what is on those ships (or if indeed they exist) they would certainly make a more persuasive case for Iraqi deception than some dodgy recorded phone calls or the odd empty warhead.

As for storming a ship in the Indian Ocean which is sailing under the flags of other foreign powers - that might become something of a diplomatic nightmare. However, if our governments have significant evidence to suggest an illegal cargo then one does have to wonder why not. As many have pointed out, that would provide the smoking gun the allies desire and ultimately the trigger for war.

Just to throw something else into the mix: Don't modern day pirate vessels operate in the Indian Ocean? I vaguely remember reading something along those lines.

Time for a little research.

 

[Anonymous]

As to the risk of scutteling the ship - if it has loads of the missing Chemicals Colin Powell talked about, then you probably wouldn't want to mix it into the Indian Ocean.... (obviously big if there)

Probably best to use smallish, low yield tactical nukes, then. Vapourise the buggers and their cargoes!

Errrrr... Oh No! I'm beginning to sound like Ruff! I need a holiday!

 

[ninja_cat]

I wonder why the US/UK pro-war alliance have not made a point of focusing the media in this particular area? One would have expected them to have seized this opportunity to advance the WMD/hidden weapons case. Although we have no idea what is on those ships (or if indeed they exist) they would certainly make a more persuasive case for Iraqi deception than some dodgy recorded phone calls or the odd empty warhead.

Be a bit embarrasing if they found a ship load of canned spam (sorry just been reading the Monty Python thread...)

 

[AlistairP3]

I doubt they would guarantee that they could take a ship on the high seas with no risk of it being scuttled.

Nah. Could be done relatively easily. The Royal Marines 'Swimmer Canoeist' squadron trains to take over all sorts of ships and oil rigs and things at sea. They generally train on Royal Fleet Auxilary ships and North Sea rigs. I'd be surprised if this didn't include drills to ensure they weren't scuttled or blown up.

If these ships are as large as they're supposed to be, I'd be very surprised if someone hadn't already been, or was still, aboard.

 

[Anonymous]

Ninja,

In an amazing synchronistic fashion I was just looking at the very same thread before I read your reply.

In response to the rest of this thread proper - it all seems to be getting a bit Tom Clancy porno-militaristic.

 

[ninja_cat]

Kinda of what I was worried about - this Tom CLancy kinda of stuff. Lets look at a worst case scenario -

The ships do contain the smoking gun the US are looking for. It would be wise for the crew to have scuttling charges at the ready. As soon as they realise the SBS are boarding, the charges are let off.

To prevent the scuttling they would have to:

- get below decks without any compromise
- find out who holds the firing switch for the charges, disarm them,
- find and disable the charges, hoping that there is no backup firing system,
- disarm and capture the crew then make the ship secure.

A tough job and the SBS are the most likely to be able to take on that job but to gurantee it may not be possible.

 

[Quetzelcoatl]

As for storming a ship in the Indian Ocean which is sailing under the flags of other foreign powers - that might become something of a diplomatic nightmare.

didnt the US Navy re4cently board a ship believed to be carrying North Korean warheads? Cant be arsed to do a search, but I'm pretty sure they did

Just to throw something else into the mix: Don't modern day pirate vessels operate in the Indian Ocean? I vaguely remember reading something along those lines.

yes, pirates operate in the Indian Ocean and China Sea, but they tend to operate within a 100 mile range of shore. True ocean going pirates? Havent heard of them and these ships are right out in blue water.

as for the tom Clancy porn - it needs to be considered (and armed men in tight black suits just do something for me).

whatever they did would be far out of sight of land and the media. And I'd like to think the SAS / SBS expertise extended beyond leaping about Embassies and airports in those very sexy black little numbers.

they must have plans for this sort of James Bond scenario?

a good point that these 'ships' which nobody can see nor confirm, have emerged just as the UN resolution is coming to a head. Where are the satelite pics?

 

[ninja_cat]

The Spanish (working from US intel.) stormed a ship carrying legit scud weapons thinking they were bound for Iraq. As they were legit sales I doubt if the crew were going to scuttle the ship.

Hope you like the pic

 

[AlistairP3]

Just to chip in again, I think it's great that people these days are owning up to Tom Clancy type stuff being porn.

's the same with car magazines, innit? Top Gear and Autocar are your Playboy and Penthouse, whilst Max Power and Fast Car are your Razzle and Knave.

 

[Quetzelcoatl]

's the same with car magazines, innit? Top Gear and Autocar are your Playboy and Penthouse, whilst Max Power and Fast Car are your Razzle and Knave.

Tom Clancy and Robert Ludlum are Readers Wives and Big & Bouncy, Len Dieghton and John LeCarre - Club International and Mayfair while Andy MacNab is Health & Efficiency. Not that I know much about Top Shelf mags

seriously though folks...

this is shaping into a James Bond plot...

meglamaniac bent on world distruction if his demands are not met (Bush of Saddam - you choose), huge sinister unmarked silent cargo ships steaming around the Indian Ocean, lights burning late on Millbank and Langley, Virginia

(Thanks for the pic Ninja. Pash me that boxsh of Kleenex Mish Moneypenny)

 

[Anonymous]

I see that porno-militarism has become rather fashionable.

 

[Anonymous]

If they are as scary as all that, just use nuclear torpedoes and they'll be reported lost at sea and noone will ever know. Except any poor sods on the nearest landmass who start to lose teeth and things. Bit of a bummer if they are just legit freighters being used as pawns, like.
Such weapons do exist; one of our diesel subs, back in the eighties, ambushed an American carrier group with a pretend nuclear torpedo on an exercise (quickest way to dispose of an entire fleet). Has to be a diesel sub if you're going to ambush people, though, and we got rid of the last of those a couple of years ago.
Tom Clancy was never in the military, by the way; he was an accountant.

 

[Quetzelcoatl]

If they are as scary as all that, just use nuclear torpedoes and they'll be reported lost at sea and noone will ever know.

my take exactly on coming out of The Usual Suspects. Until my then Current Main Squeeze pointed out that there would be no plot for Kevin Spacey et al to make the film with. 'S obvious when considered from the female perspective (sorry in advance of the handbagging)

no ships = no conspiracy theory and George Dubyall just wouldnt do that to us

Tom Clancy was never in the military, by the way; he was an accountant.

why does this not surprise me. Read 2 pages of one of his books once then left it on the floor of the airport

 

[Anonymous]

I can never get even as far as that, with one notable exception.
I liked The Hunt for Red October, but I'd seen the film first, so all the character development that he forgot was done already...

 

[stu neville]

"Debt of Honor" is quite good, but the first half's about...accountancy, by and large. Well, economics. Then it becomes a military story.

It's the best one I've read of his.

 

[NilesCalder]

"Saucer" is dire except for the technology bits (and there aren't enough of them). It's a bit worrying that Clive Cussler is the best US Action Author...

That said I've spotted a hole in this plot. Since any ships moving through the gulf would be stopped and searched Saddam would have to move the weapons through friendly and trusted neighbours to reach the coast. Does Saddam have any friendly and trusted neighbours?

 

[Quetzelcoatl]

I've spotted a hole in this plot. Since any ships moving through the gulf would be stopped and searched Saddam would have to move the weapons through friendly and trusted neighbours to reach the coast. Does Saddam have any friendly and trusted neighbours?

the ships stopped in Yemen, Syria and Jordan before taking off to poodle around the Indian Ocean.

Saddam wouldnt try to load from Iraqui ports cos the US / Royal Navy would want to have a word.

'Flag of convenience' ships, chartered in Egypt, would sail past with a cheery wave.

Red October was mint. Starring Stu Neville and some American (Tom Hanks?) and wassname - big bald American lad - was in Burning Mississippi - 's on the tip of me toungue.

Robert Ludlum? Heres the plot...

ex CIA spook, retired to leafy Virginia, gets home to find his wife and daughters raped and murdered and an Arab has had a shit in his dishwasher. Gets mad. Gets false passport. Wrecks terrible revenge in full on wet detail upon the PLO and Al Q.

aye right. Pass The Famous Five Do Dallas would you?

 

[Anonymous]

I say we sink them. Noone could ever prove that we did, and we can search the wrecks. Freighters are easy enough to sink without killing anyone; they are big, heavy and hollow. If you torpedoed one of them during the day, so most of the crew would be up and about, near the bow so as to be far away from the crew, she'd drive herself under PDQ, hopefully too quickly for themto set off any nastiness.* It's just a matter of arranging for one of our merchants to be conveniently close to hand to pick up the crew. A warship would be too obvious.

*I'm working on the assumption that they follow the standard pattern for most modern merchant ships.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry to display serious paranoia, but Clancy is an "assymetrical warfare" guru. For the Anthrax attacks, read, "Executive Orders", for 9/11 read the end of "Debt of Honour".
"The Hunt for Red October" was a great film, but Alec Baldwin starred as Jack Ryan. Thus is totally unacceptable, as Harrison Ford is the one true Jack. It is almost as bad as Ben Affleck in "The Sum of All Fears", which incidentally had all mention of the nuke lost being Israeli wiped from the script.

Just to get an argument going, which is more important, Iraq being in violation of 14 UN resolutions, or Israel being in violation of 68? Is this also connected to US and UK weapons sales to Iraq? Does Donald Rumsfeld know the power of the Iraqi WMD because of Hans Blix, or because he checked the reciepts?

 

[ruffready]

block any food and supplies until dead in the water

The vessels are thought to have spent much of their time in the deep waters of the Indian Ocean, berthing at sea when they need to collect supplies of fuel and food.

without the fuel and food ..they will eventually have to give it up..at least its a thought. will just have to not let any other ships near them , from what I read they arent taking any communications or replying to our request. Its either that or force. Can't risk them reaching a hostile port.

 

[Anonymous]

This all seems sort of alarmist to me...
Deadweight Tonnage is a sort of odd measurement here, to start with; 35-40k would represent a pretty big merchant cargo vessel, but nothing on the order of an oil tanker, which run around 200,000, but I believe these are 2,240 LB long tonnes? So if you had 1000 tonnes of bio crapola to hide, you'd put like 3 and a (fraction omitted) on each ship, and then 32 tons of supplies, and eight or ten guys, and send it out to sea for a few years, to circle the indian ocean extremely suspiciously, never making radio contact with anyone? Resupply with semaphore? And what's this "ever decreasing circles" business? Eventually, they'd collide, I'd think... problem solved.
After going to all the trouble of getting your stuff hidden on foreign flagged cargo vessels, why wouldn't you have them just act like normal cargo ships, trucking junk around, and load 3 and 1/3 less tonnes of cargo a trip, never returning to Iraq till the whole crisis was over? If they're afraid of going into any ports, but are still being resupplied, what are the odds they're full of heroin or something as opposed to bio-goop? Or are some spook agency's electronic snooping ships?
Anyway, as for wanting to board them, the solution seems obvious to me... dress the boarding teams up as french military, and if the ships are scuttled, say they belonged to greenpeace.

 

[Anonymous]

Regarding the danger of scuttling ships at sea loaded with chemical weapons, we've been dumping warheads loaded with chemical weapons in the Irish Sea and other places for years.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe its another Ourang Medan style incident.