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Thylacines & Thylacoleos: Pre-1936 & Genetic Ethics

Brief footage of a Thylacine, second clip in:
 
It's an amalgamation of two of the films taken in Hobart, both of the same animal, there's also a third film of it.
 
Paddle's suggestion of a mainland thylacine population in the 1800's is looking increasingly poorly researched. His source evidence for the Aboriginal people of the Flinders Range doesn't correspond to his source material, and his citation of a man known as Dr John Plamer Litchfield, who he says during the course of a lecture referred to a South Australian bounty scheme, turns out not to be the eminent Victorian 'medical practitioner, surgeon and scientist' he was hoping for, but instead an unqualified con man, unmasked several times.

http://www.queensu.ca/encyclopedia/l/litchfield-john-palmer

Be careful what you read about this species.
 
Been doing a lot of historical research into the late days of the thylacine at Hobart Zoo recently. All very confused and largely unresolveable. Everyone who's opinion you'd seek if you could ask them said something different, often contradicting themselves from one article to the next. Basic findings though are that the well accepted version of events are not supported by an objective look at the evidence, of which there is far, far more than is usually cited.

It looks like the last captive was largely overlooked by the great and the good of Australian natural historians. So it's date of death, which was only established in the late 70's early 80's, is only known from one source and that's the Reserve Committee records of Hobart Council. Otherwise going by contemporary accounts we'd be somewhere between 1933 and '36.

The animal featured in three of the seven films, most famously the Fleay film, probably didn't arrive in the zoo as late as supposed and there is a record, not before cited, of a thylacine in the zoo at the beginning of 1933 which may well be the same animal, it's currently listed in the literature as arriving in June or July but the evidence is against this. Or strongly appears to be.

I will be coming up with a rambling 10,000 word fully referenced epic on this sometime between now and the end of time, in which I'll be presenting the sources for all of this. Although the conclusion is pretty much what I've said above.
 
So lets find a real live one so we don't have to care whether those old reports are correct or not. Just hoping.
 
Really important new thylacine photo has emerged today. Previously unknown and held in private hands the photographer's granddaughter has posted it today on Facebook. It can be viewed here https://www.facebook.com/ThylacineMan/posts/1220277741447399

It's very unusual, firstly it's one of the two(?)* known photos that aren't taken in a zoo, the only other I can think of is of the same group in the same travel cage. It's also the only one I know that shows an overt display of maternal behaviour.
 
A quick learning question here, are there any known recordings of Col Bailey's 1969 interview with Elias Churchill? Or anything of that ilk doing the rounds.
 
Andy Saunders said:
A quick learning question here, are there any known recordings of Col Bailey's 1969 interview with Elias Churchill? Or anything of that ilk doing the rounds.
Click to expand...

No, but I believe it's recounted in Bailey's book 'tiger tales'. The only recordings with eye witnesses I know of are the many Alison Reid interviews, Neil Stuart Mucolloch who was Harrson's grandson, and Will Cramp who was a Saturday helper at the zoo as a little boy. I think there are more in Tiger Country the 1973 documentary and the Tasmanian Tiger. My brain isn't working properly today so I'll be forgetting some.
 
Here's Tiger Country'


Will Cramp

http://blogs.abc.net.au/tasmania/2013/07/the-last-tiger-in-the-zoo.html?site=hobart&program=(none)

And a transcript of the McCulloch interview courtesy of James Whitehead here

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/can-anyone-get-sound-on-this.61870/

Note though that the above is a fairly accurate account of events that happened in 1928 not the date he gives.

The rest can be seen here https://www.facebook.com/pg/ThylacineMan/videos/?ref=page_internal

Also note above that there strongly appears to be a similar error in both of the Alison Reid interviews, she seems to be describing the events of 1928, not of some time later in the thirties.
 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-...il-footprints-reveal-ancient-wildlife/8735572

Fossil footprints reveal Kangaroo Island's diverse ancient wildlife
By Tom Fedorowytsch
Posted Sun at 12:04pm

Photo: Tasmanian tigers will definitely not be found in the wild, researchers say. (Wikimedia Commons)
Related Story: Flinders Ranges fossils documented for World Heritage bid
Related Story: Five places that mark Australia's extreme geological past
Related Story: Reg Sprigg honoured with SA's first fossil emblem
Map: Kingscote 5223
Rare fossilised footprints of Tasmanian tigers and devils, as well as those of giant megafauna and flightless birds, have been uncovered by scientists on Kangaroo Island, south of Adelaide.

Photo: Top: Tasmanian devil and print; middle left: extinct short-faced kangaroo and its prints; next: sooty oystercatcher; middle right: eastern quoll, bottom left: diprotodon optatum: middle: grey kangaroo and right: trackways from the KI site showing large kangaroo and diprotodontid footprints. (Supplied: A. Camens/Peter Trusler/Dave Watts)


The South Australian site is on an isolated beach on Dudley Peninsula, and was found during efforts to survey 6,500 kilometres of Australia's coastline from Western Australia through South Australia and Victoria.

Dr Aaron Camens, from Flinders University, said more than 300 trace fossils showed the island's reputation for diverse wildlife extended as far back as 200,000 years ago.

"[We found] things like diprotodon, which was our largest marsupial herbivore that weighed about two tonnes, but also some of the more recently extinct animals in the area like thylacines and even Tassie devils," he said.

It complements trace fossils found on Western Australia's so-called dinosaur coast.

Dr Camens said there was much researchers could learn from trace fossils and trackways, in contrast to evidence gleaned from ancient fossils such as those found in the Flinders Ranges of outback SA.

"We've found skeletal fossils — the bones of these extinct animals — over much of Australia, but the fossil footprints haven't actually been looked at in much detail," he said.

"They can potentially be preserved, where the bones don't preserve, so that adds extra information about the distribution of these animals.

"They can show us elements of the animals' behaviour as well — how they interacted with each other and what kind of environments they moved through."

The Kangaroo Island site has evidence of reptiles, birds, mammals and invertebrates, potentially spanning back between 20,000 and 200,000 years, including time when the area became separated from the mainland.

Tasmanian tigers 'definitely extinct'
Dr Camens said there was no chance the Tasmanian tiger might still be prowling parts of the mainland or Kangaroo Island.

"If we've got thylacines still living in South Australia, we need a viable population and not just a single one," he said.

"For the tens of thousands of purported sightings across Australia, we don't have concrete evidence of a single one anywhere on the mainland."

Kangaroo Island residents drew the area to the attention of Dr Camens and his team, including Federation University geologist Stephen Carey and University of Adelaide scientist Lee Arnold.

Dr Camens said the Kangaroo Island discovery was the "tip of the iceberg" and there would be more soon to reveal about other sites on Australia's southern coastline.

Photo: Researchers say the fossil site ia on a secluded beach on the southern Dudley Peninsula on Kangaroo Island. (Supplied: A. Camens)


Topics: research, history, science-and-technology, university-and-further-education, kingscote-5223, adelaide-5000, sa

More stories from South Australia



KI is an outstanding place for a holiday.
 
At one time stories about the Coelacanth were called "hoax's" and/or misinterpreted sightings of other creatures. The Tasmanian wolf may, very well, be extinct; however, never say " never" or in this case "definitely extinct". Too many qualified witnesses have seen what certainly looks like them.
 
Lets hear it for the Thylacine. If ya can't find him then bring him back. What!
 
Yay for the Thylacine!
 
'Exploitation as a metaphor', An important point to address, and one that really pisses me off. I wish it was closer, I'd really like to hear this talk.
 
Any chance of it being published anywhere?
 
The Hunter, film about a mercenary hunting a thylacine is on BBC2, Sunday at 11 pm. Excellent film.

The independent and lonely hunter Martin David is hired by the powerful biotech company Red Leaf to hunt down the last Tasmanian tiger. Red Leaf is interested in the DNA of the animal and Martin travels to Tasmania alone. He poses as a researcher from a university and lodges in the house of Lucy Armstrong. Martin learns that Lucy's husband has been missing for a long time and he befriends her children, Sass and Bike. When Martin goes to the village, he has a hostile reception from the locals. Along the days, Martin spends his days in the Tasmanian wilderness chasing the Tiger and becomes closer and closer to the Armstrong family. But Red Leaf wants results no matter the costs.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1703148/
 
ramonmercado said:
The Hunter, film about a mercenary hunting a thylacine is on BBC2, Sunday at 11 pm. Excellent film.

The independent and lonely hunter Martin David is hired by the powerful biotech company Red Leaf to hunt down the last Tasmanian tiger. Red Leaf is interested in the DNA of the animal and Martin travels to Tasmania alone. He poses as a researcher from a university and lodges in the house of Lucy Armstrong. Martin learns that Lucy's husband has been missing for a long time and he befriends her children, Sass and Bike. When Martin goes to the village, he has a hostile reception from the locals. Along the days, Martin spends his days in the Tasmanian wilderness chasing the Tiger and becomes closer and closer to the Armstrong family. But Red Leaf wants results no matter the costs.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1703148/
Click to expand...

Bloody marvelous.

I've only seen it once, and it is an excellent film. And I as thinking yesterday that I'd really like to see it again, after discussing it on FB this week. Tonight though I won't be able to find the TV by 23:00, let alone appreciate anything on it.
 
Tigers' loss 'due to climate change', say scientists

It is not as well known that thylacines also used to roam mainland Australia and died out a few thousand years ago.

Until now, scientists had believed the cause of this mainland extinction was increased activity from indigenous people and dingoes.

But a new study, based on analysis of DNA extracted from fossil bones, has found that the likely cause was climate change.

Scientists behind the University of Adelaide study, published in the Journal of Biogeography on Thursday, gleaned 51 new thylacine mitochondrial DNA genome sequences from fossil bones and museum skins, which is the largest data set of Thylacine DNA to date.

The paper concluded that climate change starting about 4000 years ago - in particular more drought-prone seasons caused by the onset of the unstable weather systems known as El Nino-Southern Oscillation - was likely the main cause of mainland extinction.

The ancient DNA revealed that the mainland extinction of thylacines was rapid, and not the result of factors such as inbreeding or loss of genetic diversity.

There was also evidence of a simultaneous population crash in thylacines in Tasmania, reducing their numbers and genetic diversity.
Click to expand...


Full article at the link: http://www.smh.com.au/victoria/tigers-loss-due-to-climate-change-say-scientists-20170927-gypzxq.html
 
Kangaroo Island

Kangaroo Island is 14.5 km from the South Australian coast. During the later part of the latest glacial phase it was connected to the mainland, a low range of hills on the continental shelf. The Murray River flowed for 70 km across the shelf in a southwesterly direction, from the present mouth. It passed within 10m km of the eastern end of the present island, entering the sea 20 km to the south.
Click to expand...
Cool. Didn't know that. Will imagine that up next time I'm at the Rapid Bay lookout. All I knew was that the prior to the rising of the Flinders Ranges geological aeons ago, the Murray flowed out near Warnertown straight into Gulf St Vincents.

MungomanII said:
http://austhrutime.com/last_glacial_maximum_australia.htm
Click to expand...
 
skinny said:
Cool. Didn't know that. Will imagine that up next time I'm at the Rapid Bay lookout. All I knew was that the prior to the rising of the Flinders Ranges geological aeons ago, the Murray flowed out near Warnertown straight into Gulf St Vincents.
Click to expand...

G'day skinny. When I was down in South Oz (70's) it was known as St Vincents gulf...I've googled it to find out when it was changed, but can't find anything on the change - any ideas when it was changed and why? Thanks mate.
 
Interesting paper, I just wish I could see it. And elsewhere it's been amusing to read the reactions of some (who haven't read it either) to it. Most of whom have failed to spot that the paper deals with the Mainland extinction only.

There was another paper published last week by Nic Haygarth, about the Tasmanian extinction, arguing that the idea of death by bounty is in some ways misleading. Yes the bounties were paid, but they were never more than a sideline for those who claimed them. The economics of the idea of the dedicated 'tigerman', don't make sense. This is something that's equally true from 1921 onward, the era that I study.
 
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