Truth Or Happiness?

[DieDieMyDarling]

Given the choice, which is more important to you, Truth or Happiness?

People often berate Christians and other religious folk, for pushing their beliefs on others, and i don't mean in a bad way (crusades etc!), just preaching the word, or something to that effect.
Yet, agnostics and athiests don't seem to suffer the same condemnation for telling people there's no god (or suggesting it, from an agnostic point of view).

I personally think telling someone there is no god, is the worse of the two crimes. As at least telling someone there IS a god and he loves you, blah blah blah, is positive and might bring them a little hope in a world that sometimes looks bleak.

I personally don't believe in much, i'm agnostic, open minded (to an extent) but can't really see any evidence to support anything other than the fact that we are born, live, die and become nothingness. But i spent about 6 years of my life (18 - 24) as a born again Christian, and i have to say those people are happy clappers for a reason, just having that faith, belief and hope gives you an amazing feeling of contentment, safety, etc.
As time went on i lost my faith, moved away from it and now i'm far from the person i used to be, i just don't believe in any of it anymore, not one bit.

So the reason i'm asking the question is, if you had a belief in something that truly made you happy, would you want someone coming along and pointing out the reasons why it's not real? (I must point out i didn't lose my faith over anything like that, i was just a very curious person and asked myself too many quesions, which over time led me to lose faith).

Would you value the 'knowing' it's not real, above the happiness it brought you?

You could argue that you could still find another happiness, after losing your faith in whatever it was that you believed in, but that's not assured, compared to the happiness you'd actually have in your grasp, within your belief system.

Strangely, i'd argue this from an agnostic point of view, and argue that if we are born, live our lives for as long as we can, then die and become nothingness, that any little happiness we can find along the way can't be a bad thing, regardless of it's truth and meaning.

It wouldn't matter to me that at the end of the day, i died and there was no god to greet me and say 'welcome to heaven' - i wouldn't know anyway, if we do just become nothingness when we die. The part that would have mattered was in my times of turmoil, i'd have had a faith/hope/trust in something of a higher order, looking over me and making things ok.

It could be used like a drug, people think nothing of having a few drinks, smoking a joint or dropping some tabs, to make themselves feel better, even though the lift is short term, with no real answer or meaning at the end of it. It could be argued that religious people are getting their fix off a belief in a spirtual entity, praying in times of need to make them feel better.

I really don't want this thread to become something about 'ah but that lot go around causing wars and killing each other' - I'm talking about basic people with faith, not really those that go around telling everyone they're gonna go to hell, or trying to force people to share their beliefs, more people that just get on with life and maybe give a mention of why they're happy, every now and then, to anyone that'll listen or ask about it.

Sorry to rant on a bit, i didn't think the quesiton would be that big! Don't let it put you off answering, i'm really interested in what people think on this.

 

[rynner2]

People with strong religious faith will not be impressed by statements from atheists or agnostics. They will merely feel sad that these poor benighted souls have not seen the light, and will pray that 'the way' will be revealed to the unbelievers.

People with weak religious beliefs might well be troubled by critical comment, but probably only to the extent that the comments reflect their own doubts.

The Bible, John 8:32, (and the CIA ) says "The truth shall set you free".
(Ironic if the truth is that all religion is false.)


There is also the expression "Fool's Paradise" to be considered. If a 'fool' becomes enlightened about the nature of his misconceptions, he may well feel happier to be free of them. Suddenly all those baffling points of dogma, and contradictions in Holy Script, become irrelevent, and he no longer has to worry about them.

Really, this discussion belongs in What's your belief system?
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22418

There I posted the case of Jonathon Edwards, Olympic gold medal winner and committed Christian, who lost his faith - and felt happier!
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewt ... 145#719145

So I say, speak the truth as you see it. (But speak that truth without aggression or insolence.) It is up to others how they react to your words. If they become unhappy, the seeds of that unhappiness were already within them.

"Sticks and stones may hurt my bones, but words will never hurt me."

 

[Pete Younger]

Well I can only quote this well known passage from Karl Marx...

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality.

 

[Anonymous]

Given the choice, which is more important to you, Truth or Happiness?

They are not mutually exclusive. I want and have, demand, both.

I don't believe in any of the Gods, but if 'they' make people happy and better then that is a good thing. Using fundamentalism as an argument against blind faith is at best nieve, and at worst worse than the fundamentalist's opinions. My mother is a devout Chatholic and I don't hate her.

EDIT - I want (and have) truth AND happiness. I don't see why I should have to choose one OR the other.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

I thought it was going to be about ignorance being bliss, as in not knowing that your tummy ache is terminal.

I have certainly been party to such deceptions in the past and I can't say they really added to the happiness of the patients or their carers.

White lies are, however, hard to live without.

"You look marvellous!"

"There is pie in the sky when we die!"

Evangelical atheists are a recent media phenomenon, created in reaction to the Mad Mullahs and Evangelical Twonks who speak loudest for religions.

A door-to-door ministry of atheism, releasing folk from their fear of everlasting punishment, has always appealed to me but I lack both zeal and funding. If the funding was in place, I guess the zeal would arise.

I know a lot of religious folk do their bit for no direct material reward. Yet the organizations they represent always seem to have a nice warm solid basis in real estate. Atheists take note: a good steeple always has them flocking.

 

[Anonymous]

Was that a YES or a NO? I've lost track of the question!

I think it had something to do with noodles.

Well, it's as good a belief as any other!

 

[JamesWhitehead]

Truth, at least in its capitalized form, seems to imply the religiously sanctioned kind, as promulgated by Societies.

Yes or No? Happiness or Truth? Here is Mother Teresa's take:

Guardian Story

Mother Teresa's struggle to find God revealed in new book

Eric Gorski in Denver
Monday August 27, 2007
The Guardian

Mother Teresa's hidden faith struggle is to be laid bare in a book that shows she felt alone and separated from God.

Mother Teresa's ordeals were first laid out to a series of confessors and confidants and became public knowledge in 2003 during the investigation into her cause for sainthood, a process fast-tracked by Pope John Paul II.

But Come Be My Light: The Private Writings of the 'Saint of Calcutta', to be released next Tuesday by Doubleday, collects her thoughts in one place for the first time, inviting a closer review of her life 10 years after her death.

The book was edited by the Rev Brian Kolodiejchuk, a priest who knew Mother Teresa for 20 years and is the postulator for her sainthood cause. It depicts her as a mystic who experienced visions of Jesus speaking to her early in her ministry, only to lose that connection and long for it for most of her last four decades.

"I have no Faith - I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart - & make me suffer untold agony," she wrote in an undated letter.

In 1956, she wrote: "Such deep longing for God and ... repulsed empty no faith no love no zeal ... Heaven means nothing pray for me please that I keep smiling at Him in spite of everything."

Rev Richard McBrien, author of Lives of the Saints, said her struggles made her more human. "It shows that she wasn't a plaster-of-paris saint who never had a doubt about God or the ultimate meaning of life," he said. Mother Teresa was beatified in 2003. Under Catholic tradition, an additional miracle attributable to her must be verified before sainthood.

Story ends.



"Heaven means nothing pray for me please that I keep smiling at Him in spite of everything"

It must be wrong to dismiss the smiles of the devout as always anaesthetized, when they sometimes conceal so much terrible pain. But I hardly think the Jehova's Twonks or Mormons at the door are suffering that kind of angst. :spinning

 

[Anonymous]

You're scaring me now, James! :shock:

 

[rynner2]

Oddly enough (or not) I also posted that Mother theresa story
- on What's your belief system...

 

[DieDieMyDarling]

Given the choice, which is more important to you, Truth or Happiness?

They are not mutually exclusive. I want and have, demand, both.

I don't believe in any of the Gods, but if 'they' make people happy and better then that is a good thing. Using fundamentalism as an argument against blind faith is at best nieve, and at worst worse than the fundamentalist's opinions. My mother is a devout Chatholic and I don't hate her.

EDIT - I want (and have) truth AND happiness. I don't see why I should have to choose one OR the other.

I would argue that your 'truth' is only truth to you, and those who share your opinion/belief, and that's where my question lies. You have your truth, and your happiness, if there was a possibility that i had information that blew your truth assunder, leaving you unable to find it 'true' anymore, would you prefer i didn't tell you, or would you prefer to know?

 

[DieDieMyDarling]

I thought it was going to be about ignorance being bliss, as in not knowing that your tummy ache is terminal.

I have certainly been party to such deceptions in the past and I can't say they really added to the happiness of the patients or their carers.

White lies are, however, hard to live without.

"You look marvellous!"

"There is pie in the sky when we die!"

Evangelical atheists are a recent media phenomenon, created in reaction to the Mad Mullahs and Evangelical Twonks who speak loudest for religions.

A door-to-door ministry of atheism, releasing folk from their fear of everlasting punishment, has always appealed to me but I lack both zeal and funding. If the funding was in place, I guess the zeal would arise.

I know a lot of religious folk do their bit for no direct material reward. Yet the organizations they represent always seem to have a nice warm solid basis in real estate. Atheists take note: a good steeple always has them flocking.

I think that was the main purpose of my question, ignorance is bliss vs the truth will set you free, so to speak.

I think it probably comes down to a rather boring answer of some people prefer truth, some prefer bliss. Personally speaking (i've had a cancer scare in the past, which put me through a few months of hell, as the doctors pulled their fingers out and finally got me a scan which showed me the all clear!) if i had cancer, i'd rather not know.

I'd also quite like to have faith in something, to think that everything will be ok. Maybe that makes me weak, but i don't see that as a bad thing. If i break my leg, i wouldn't have a problem with getting a crutch to help me walk. If my eyesight starts to fade, i would get glasses/contacts to help me see. If i feel down or find myself going through turmoil, i'd quite like to be able to lean on something to help me cope.

I really don't wanna limit this thread to religion vs atheism, although my original post was a bit .. all over the place, and it did lean that way..

It could be any belief/crutch. Some people put their faith in spells, magic(k), cosmic order, karma, justice, superstition and even things like aliens and ghosts.

If a person is afraid of death, then reads about or witnesses themselves, ghostly happenings, which to them is proof that there is an afterlife and it's not that bad, nothing to fear, is it such a bad thing if it turns out to be tripe?

If someone pours salt around the perimeter of their home, to ward off evil, thus making them feel safe, would it be such a bad thing if the salt didn't actually do anything, other than kill a few slugs?

 

[Forever_S]

When children are small their inexperienced naive little minds thoroughly believe what their parents tell them - such as Tooth fairy and Santa Claus. These lies make children happy very happy but there comes the time when they must put aside childish beliefs and grow up and find out - no Santa, no tooth fairy - this is devastating to the young mind which believed in such things since birth - practically.

Point is - it made them happy and brought magic into their lives but it wasn't TRUE.

What is interesting though is how the mind works into making a person believe things are real when there's no real physical evidence to suggest so - this strange phenomenon is the realm of magick and religion. Magicians and religious people alike can dupe minds, induce hallucinations and strong personal beliefs all of which make life happier and more interesting as well as invoking all kinds emotions and even bringing on death - some have even been known to prolong life. I suspect the true reason for making children believe in Santa, etc, is to excercise their minds ability to dream and imagine so that they can experience magick.

What I would say is - yeah, there is no God but there is the ability to believe in him - and imagine incredible things - and if there is no God - why does this ability even exist?

 

[Analogue Boy]

I was gutted when someone told me 'Hey, Santa isn't real'. At first I couldn't take it in.
It seemed obvious to me that it must not be so as the whole world was promoting it. It was on the news, the TV, he even turned up in a grotto at the local shop. There were books, movies and a whole season (with special pies) dedicated to the celebration of this jolly guy who handed me presents if I was really good. All the adults were in on it so it must have been true. So when someone said he wasn't real, and I had doubts, I started looking at the evidence and reached a conclusion.

I grew up. I later (maybe cynically) realised there was a whole marketing drive behind the whole thing. The cards, the presents, the themed TV output, a message from the Queen and a faux sense of togetherness that says we only have to be nice to each other for one day a year.

However, the belief that Santa does not exist does not stop me or other people doing charitable work, being sociable or having family get-togethers around Christmas time or being filled with a peculiar sense of wonder at this time of year.

So then I looked at where it all comes from and someone says, 'hey, Jesus isn't real'....

 

[DieDieMyDarling]

When children are small their inexperienced naive little minds thoroughly believe what their parents tell them - such as Tooth fairy and Santa Claus. These lies make children happy very happy but there comes the time when they must put aside childish beliefs and grow up and find out - no Santa, no tooth fairy - this is devastating to the young mind which believed in such things since birth - practically.

Point is - it made them happy and brought magic into their lives but it wasn't TRUE.

What is interesting though is how the mind works into making a person believe things are real when there's no real physical evidence to suggest so - this strange phenomenon is the realm of magick and religion. Magicians and religious people alike can dupe minds, induce hallucinations and strong personal beliefs all of which make life happier and more interesting as well as invoking all kinds emotions and even bringing on death - some have even been known to prolong life. I suspect the true reason for making children believe in Santa, etc, is to excercise their minds ability to dream and imagine so that they can experience magick.

What I would say is - yeah, there is no God but there is the ability to believe in him - and imagine incredible things - and if there is no God - why does this ability even exist?

I'm not even sure magic(k) is the reason. I think it's purely down to survival.
There's 2 parts to it, which seems to span across all religions/mythologies, etc:-

Authority:
Telling your kid to be good, or santa won't bring any presents. Telling your kid to be good, or Jesus won't be happy. What goes around comes around. I believe even magic(k) has certain rules, where spells you carry out will affect you too, or something? (i'm not really up on the subject).

Peace of mind:
Just the mere idea that santa exists is a wonderful illusion, it creates excitement, happiness, hope. Knowing God exists creates hope, peace of mind, security, knowing that praying to God will help you out, make things ok. Doing whatever the deity of your choice wants will ensure a positive outcome, from sacrafice to rituals and prayers, will bring good crops, cure the ill, etc.

Most things in life run by these rules. Even things like the mafia, do right by the family and you'll be treated well, grass up the family and you'll suffer.

All tribes seem to have this. From all over the world. All humans seem to have evolved into this mindset, that there has to be certain rules and punishment and reward are the basis. Most of the time the rules are simple and not that difficult to follow. Do right by the tribe, don't hurt each other, steal, lie, etc. Give a little back, to the big man in the sky, and in return he'll look after us.