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Twilight Of The Godless: The Death Of Atheism?

Mighty_Emperor

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Nov. 13, 2004. 01:00 AM

Twilight of the godless

Oxford professor says atheism is fading and faith is making a dramatic return around the globe Alister McGrath charts rise and fall of unbelief from French revolution onward, writes Wayne Holst


The Twilight Of Atheism:

The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World

by Alister McGrath

Random House Canada, 306 pages, .95

Atheism has fallen on hard times.

Most people today no longer explicitly deny the divine or think the existence of spiritual powers to be illusionary. Supernatural beings and a transcendent realm beyond our own are now commonly accepted, says Alister McGrath, himself a one-time atheist.

In just a few decades, a major religious reversal has occurred.

McGrath, an articulate and prolific writer, is a professor of historical theology at Oxford University and a leading evangelical Christian scholar. His book, The Twilight Of Atheism, charts the rise and fall of a once powerful "empire of the mind" and the recovery of another.

Atheism is out, he says. Faith is returning with a vengeance.

After reaching its high-water mark during the early 1970s, says the author, classic secularization began to fade as a cultural influence. (Secularization has traditionally meant the evolution of a rational empire of the here and now created by humans; a belief in this world as the only real one.)

Changes in thinking have been occurring in Europe, McGrath suggests, and especially in nations traditionally influenced by European thought, like Canada.

In spite of dire declarations that God had died, there has been a phenomenal post-modern, global religious resurgence. Evidence of a change is reflected in popular New Age "spirituality," for example; or the global rise of evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity. There has been a revival of Orthodox Judaism, and significant growth in militant Islam.

All of these spiritual expressions, in their own unique ways, indicate a dramatic contemporary rebirth of belief and a corresponding decline in unbelief.

The truth is, says McGrath, that in spite of the continuing strength of secularization in the West, religion remains important to a lot of people. For many moderns, secularization includes God, and acknowledges the divine and the supernatural.

In major parts of the world, formerly atheistic countries contain sizeable populations that acknowledge the importance of transcendent meaning.

In post-atheistic Russia, for example, there has been a remarkable rebirth of religious interest. It has taken the form of a return to traditional religions like Russian Orthodoxy or a flirtation with various new religions.

McGrath divides his book into two parts. The first he entitles "The High Noon of Atheism" and shows how and why atheism once flourished. The second he labels "Twilight," a description of atheistic demise. His survey originates with the French revolution of 1789, continues through the fall of the Berlin Wall 200 years later, and concludes with an assessment of the situation at the beginning of the 21st century.

Anticipating the revolution in France, Voltaire (1694-1778) claimed that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. René Descartes (1596-1650) abandoned any appeal to religious experience. Both claimed God might still exist, but traditional ideas about God prompted superstition, human dependency and joylessness.

In the heyday of atheism, the human and the material were considered the ultimate measure of things. God was removed from the equation of reality, or at least deemed unnecessary. Religion was portrayed as a prop used by immature people who needed a parent to look after them. Or as a drug, taken to dull the pain of an unjust world. Or even as an illusion, to help persons claim their desires.

The intellectual foundations for modern atheism were established by Ludwig Feuerbach (1804-72), Karl Marx (1818-83) and Sigmund Freud (1856-1939). Feuerbach believed that while God might yet exist, God as defined by the church was a human creation; a projection of the mind. Marx proposed that the material world was what counted; not an imaginary spiritual one. He said that humans, not God, construct religion.

Freud's major contribution was to offer a psychological explanation for religion. He developed his theory of psychoanalysis by focusing on the human unconscious, not on a supernatural realm. He believed humans would naturally evolve from theism to atheism.

The sciences viewed themselves as liberators; invalidating the need for God. The biologist Charles Darwin (1809-1882), while not rejecting the possibility of God's existence, believed that evolution was the means by which God guided creation to its present state. Those who take a rather grim view of Darwin's famous theory need to know that during his own lifetime he worked to reconcile science and faith. It was not evolution that made him question the existence of God. He simply could not accept the popular evangelical Christian doctrine that souls of unbelievers were eternally condemned to hell.

Poets and philosophers joined forces with scientists to grapple with troubling questions that had been ignored previously when religion had dominated common thought. Some clung to a concept of a God whose stock seemed to be declining in value. Others rejected God outright and offered substitutes.

The romantic poets Wordsworth, Shelly and Keats (writing at the turn of the 19th century) believed that since humanity needed to believe in some form of transcendent reality, nature could be a worthy replacement for God.

Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoyevsky (1821-1881) struggled with how God could allow so much evil and negativity in the world. He wrote several famous religious classics like The Brothers Karamazov in an attempt to find comfort in the midst of troublesome realities. Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900) devised an approach called nihilism. He not so much killed the idea of God as he announced the death of God in the soul of his contemporaries.

McGrath says that early in his career he too had been an atheist who rejected God's existence and believed that life was what humans themselves make of it. In time, though, he "moved on" from what he called dead-ended thinking. The existence of God cannot be proven or denied, he concluded. God can be experienced, not rationally understood. Divinity exists in a baptized human imagination and the re-enchantment of nature.

Disillusionment with the human condition's lack of a spiritual dimension has led other insightful social observers to revise their thinking. Atheistic arguments, once so seemingly authoritative and convincing, have lost their substance. John Updike, the modern novelist, considers atheism "drastically uninteresting as an intellectual position."

Several years ago, Robert Fulford, the respected Canadian columnist, admitted this in the National Post:

"Of all the smug and foolish delusions that were part of conventional wisdom when I was young in the middle of the 20th century, two stand out in memory. One was the idea that nationalism was a 19th-century concept on its last legs. The other was that religion, as a force in worldly affairs, was slowly but inevitably fading away. At times, I was stupid enough to believe both of these preposterous fallacies, but then, so was nearly everyone else."

The classic atheistic and theistic beliefs no longer ring true. Atheism foundered on the shoals of rigidity and orthodoxy; two of the very elements it had rejected in religion. Churches mired in rational, moralistic, belief-based thinking will themselves crash like atheism.

Christianity needs to recover its imaginative qualities, including a direct engagement with the divine. The pivotal question we face today is not the existence or non-existence of God. Our contemporary religious challenges are moral and imaginative. Is it possible to be good, creatively alive people without God?

The church must always listen to its critics — atheistic and otherwise — who raise honest questions. To its credit, the greatest virtue of classic atheism is its moral seriousness and ability to challenge superstitious religious beliefs as well as corrupt practices. Whenever the church operates as a threat to people, it fails. Whenever it serves as a friend, it flourishes.

Will the current spiritual resurgence continue?

We live today, McGrath concludes, not at a time of the twilight of the gods but in the twilight of atheism. Just as political empires rise and fall, so too do empires of the mind. Just as the coming of twilight does not portend the inevitability of night, rather a time of ambiguity, the current twilight could turn into something quite unexpected.

The modern battle between faith and unfaith is for believers to lose, not for atheists to win.

Source

The book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1844135748/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385500610/

I am sceptical about those claims but I do think there is some inate need for some kind of structure, etc. - a lot of people seem to be moving into sampling various religions (Qabbalah anyone?) or going for a kind of spiritual pick and mix approach but I doubt either are satisfying in the long term.

This book has a lot of interesting things to say on the matter:

Cupitt, D. (1998) After God: The Future of Religion. Phoenix, London.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0753804832/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0297819526/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0753804832/

And it is one of the reasons the Monkeysphere idea is so important:

forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18712
Link is obsolete. The current link is:


https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-monkeysphere.18712/

[edit: There is also an interesting "Spirituality for Agnostics" reading list at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/2RIAZ2NSF4GJ0/ ]
 
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I never held that there was such a thing as atheism. I really wonder how many atheists, in a time of peril, did not petition some other non-mortal force. Very few. Belief in something else, something greater, is the foundation of great human endevor, it gives us something to strive for (however unattainable it is) something to aim for.

Notice many religious systems strive after knowledge, even that 'hated' Catholic church did supprisingly little to restrict scientific study and actively encouraged many scientists.

Agnosticism I feel is a much better way to lead a life. Much more fortean.
 
rjm said:
I never held that there was such a thing as atheism. I really wonder how many atheists, in a time of peril, did not petition some other non-mortal force. Very few. Belief in something else, something greater, is the foundation of great human endevor, it gives us something to strive for (however unattainable it is) something to aim for.


The question is like the "when did you stop beating your wife" one. To some by denying the existence of something it implies there is actually "something" that exists to be denied.


You don't need a Great Organising Deity or Mythical Father to strive to live a moral, spritual or creative life.

many People do it all the time without one .

It' s called Buddhism.
 
René Descartes (1596-1650) abandoned any appeal to religious experience.

Not really so: the ultimate aim of Descarte's work was to place belief in God beyond doubt by laying bare the rational grounds for His existence.

Not just nit picking here - such misinterpretations give the impression of religion put to rout in the mid 17th century, only to re-emerge in the existential vacuum of the post war years. However, closer scrutiny reveals it didn't quite happen that way - what appears to be on the rise has always been there. I believe it is not so much a case of religious conviction rising as materialism eroding.

On truely rational grounds, Agnosticism is the only supportable stance to adopt; the arguments in favour of the existence of the Divine are controversial, and Atheism possesses more than its fair share of untested and untestable assumptions. Combine Atheism collapsing under the weight of its inconsistency with the exposure to new spiritual influences due to the increasing proximity and inter-penetration of cultures, and what you have is a new phase of Western culture.
 
Rrose Selavy said:
You don't need a Great Organising Deity or Mythical Father to strive to live a moral, spritual or creative life.

many People do it all the time without one .

It' s called Buddhism.


You don't even need an 'ism'.

It's just trying to live right.
 
Live right? Now, that one phrase can mean absoloutely anything. Today, living 'right' means we should tolerate other cultures/belief systems, just as in the past it was 'right' for a woman to stay at home.

Many would argue that there needs to be a cosmic 'good' by which rightness can be judged by. Many would call this God.

Others would say that humans insticitvely know what is 'good' or 'right' and this comes from evolution, the stronger species is the one that helps others in it to survive. But this does not answer the question why we look after the crippled, mentally challenged or weak who give no discernable advantage to the 'survival of the fittest' society.
 
Maybe just me, but one of the truly significent developments of the second half of the 20th century was the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. As rjm rightly pointed out, ethics is a notoriously open field; the notion of establishing a concensus of moral values as a basis for international relations strikes me as a milestone.

Part of its value lies in its showing that it is possible to acknowledge the controversial nature of morality while avoiding relativism; humanitarian action needs to be based upon something, even if that something is open to debate.
 
Yep that is the big can of worms post-modernism helped open up -that there is no right and wrong/good or evil.

I would argue that there are some basic tenets, as laid down by the "Prophets" (Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc.), that seem to work to produce a stable society that works for everyone e.g. the Ten Commandments (or at least the last 6), do unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc. (although the Prohpets probably just codified things that human societies have found that worked). The problem has always been observance - even lets admit for the religious types ;)
 
rjm said:
I never held that there was such a thing as atheism. I really wonder how many atheists, in a time of peril, did not petition some other non-mortal force. Very few. Belief in something else, something greater, is the foundation of great human endevor, it gives us something to strive for (however unattainable it is) something to aim for.
Very true - "there are no atheists in a fox-hole." Or, as Lisa Simpson put it, on finding Bart genuflecting, "Prayer - the last refuge of the scoundrel."


ibid
Notice many religious systems strive after knowledge, even that 'hated' Catholic church did supprisingly little to restrict scientific study and actively encouraged many scientists.
Erm - Galileo, anyone? To be fair, I think most religious institutions, especially while they were still the main seats of learning, did encourage scientific study. The problems arose when the findings thereof conflicted with sacred texts.
ibid
Agnosticism I feel is a much better way to lead a life. Much more fortean.
Absolutely! Having been a militant atheist for a while, I slipped back into agnosticism. As you rightly point out, active disbelief in something you cannot disprove is shockingly un-Fortean :).
 
i find, personally, that a lot of people i know who call themselfs "christian" (mainly of the "catholic" denomination) don't REALLY seem to be religious at all. It's more of a group identy more than a theology. going to mass at easter keeps their mother happy.

i spoke to a friend about this once. he calls himself a catholic but i was trying to point out that god was as dead to him as he was dead to me. he denined this but couldn't answer when the thought of a presence of a diety actually made a difference in his life.

i think this resurgence of faith may just be people jumping a band wagon. the world is a mess and having a nice safe group identy appeals.

NOTE: sorry if the above seems a bit deterministic. after re-reading the above i'm aware that it may offend some people. it's not suppose to so sorry if i have offended.
 
Not saying this to be provocative -- although it will probably come off that way -- but I have yet to hear or read anything that explains to me, in a wholly godless, purely natural world, why I shouldn't simply behave in a way that maximizes MY pleasure, MY welfare, MY personal gains, as I see them. That is -- survival of the fittest... which is, after all, the basic natural guiding priniciple for MOST life (yes, I know there are some behaviors that appear "altruistic" in the natural world, and am also aware of the arguments surrounding them - that it could be argued that such behaviors actually perpetuate the species involved, and thus could have a "genetic preservation" component underlying the apparent "altruism"... hard to say).

When I propose this, I am most often met with the arguments that (1) I would be found out and punished (which just suggests I should be CAREFUL to only act when I can get away with it), (2) I wouldn't REALLY be happy (arguable -- depends on how I am wired, no?), (3) how would I like it if everyone acted that way (and what if I said - fine? Bring it on?)....

It just seems to me that in an utterly godless, natural, universe, devoid of any guiding force, it is hard to make the case that what we call "right and wrong" have any more significance than what color shirt we choose to wear on a given day.

Shadow
 
Shadow: There has been quite a lot of work done into the evolution of cooperation, etc. using things like the prisoners dilemma, etc. that have shown that a alturisitc, cooperative model can emerge in relatively large groups:

Cox, S. J., Sluckin, T. J. & Steele, J. (1999) Group Size, Memory, and Interaction Rate in the Evolution of Cooperation. Current Anthropology. 40 (3). 369 - 77.

Presumably in the real world this happens because it is better for everyone and whats good for everyone is good for you. For example you couldn't run a corner shop if everyone stole from you but if everyone in your neighbourhood was doing well then your business would do well too.

Survival of the fittest is often used to justify but it isn't "fit" as in the strongest its "fit" as in how well things fit i.e. the evolution of a species to fit its ecolgical niche and we (as a species) has got to where we are by cooperation and alturism (but on relatively smaller group sizes than we operate at today).

Why we might have trouble with this kind of thing is explained by the Monkeysphere (as I mentioned above).
 
Clearly if some people take the role of The Robber Baron and screws everyone and takes and does what they want they will "profit" (i.e. have more things) in the short term but it leads to great instability in society and if one were to get away with this it still means that your children may be the victim of such ruthless individuals in the future and in the end it isn't just about you its about your transmitting your genes to future generations and you need the best environment for those genes.
 
As Emperor points out, Science is working on that one. Although, if you think about it a society in which everyone acted like a complete bastard would disintergrate quite quickly.

Most animals which behave that way tend to be non-social, for that reason. Could a non-social being evolve intelligence? Possibly, but not the way we know it. What about technology? Possibly not, as each individual would have to develop its own technology with little or no help from others. It would certainly develop more slowly without co-operation, and once they start to co-operate we probably get some of the social behaviours we recognise evolving.

Of course, one must remember that this is based on pure speculation, and maybe one day an intelligent life-form that has evolved this way with advanced technology will be discovered. On that day, I will deny I ever wrote this.
 
"In the animal world we have seen that the vast majority of species live in societies, and that they find in association the best arms for the struggle for life: understood, of course, in its wide Darwinian sense -- not as a struggle for the sheer means of existence, but as a struggle against all natural conditions unfavourable to the species. The animal species, in which individual struggle has been reduced to its narrowest limits, and the practice of mutual aid has attained the greatest development, are invariably the most numerous, the most prosperous, and the most open to further progress. The mutual protection which is obtained in this case, the possibility of attaining old age and of accumulating experience, the higher intellectual development, and the further growth of sociable habits, secure the maintenance of the species, its extension, and its further progressive evolution. The unsociable species, on the contrary, are doomed to decay."

-- Peter Kropotkin, Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (1902)

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/mutaidcontents.html

:D

(whenever I think of the internal contradictions of my own life, there's nothing like musing on a prince who also happened to be a revolutionary anarchist to warm my heart.)
 
Emperor said:
...in the end it isn't just about you its about your transmitting your genes to future generations and you need the best environment for those genes.

This reminds me of Richard Dawkins and his religion is a virus (or meme) analogy. Religious people tend to try and bring their children up in the same faith that they have. They provide an enviroment that stimulates religious growth and increases faith. The best enviroment for transmitting that 'meme'.

Atheism, is not a meme, try and bring a child up without a 'god' of some sort seems quite difficult if looked at logically. We tell our children stories of goblins, witches and wolves - so that they learn not to 'go off the path when wandering in the forest'. These are helpful little parables which help teach us basic safety. But they do have a lasting effect on us.

Now, telling a child these stories we expect the child for a time will believe in the 'witch in the forest' but the child will grow out of it. Now, apply this to the purpose of 'god' in the atheistic education of a child. The child is being told that there ARE witches, but there is not a god - logically it seems silly. I know I am using 'god' as a story character but to many children that is what he is. I know 'god' was to me until I was much older.

Originally Posted by Anome
On that day, I will deny I ever wrote this.


But on that day we shall remind you of this post and therefore reveal you as a liar, untrustworthy and a potential danger to our civilisations future so we shall eliminate you thus preventing any harm to future generations caused by your lies and providing a deterent to others who may consider doing the same.
 
rjm said:
But on that day we shall remind you of this post and therefore reveal you as a liar, untrustworthy and a potential danger to our civilisations future so we shall eliminate you thus preventing any harm to future generations caused by your lies and providing a deterent to others who may consider doing the same.
I never made that post. Clearly those who oppose me are clutching at straws.

Besides, people who may have once met someone who possibly worked with RJM have said he may possibly have faked some of his own posting record.

Well, it worked for GWB...
 
It just seems to me that in an utterly godless, natural, universe, devoid of any guiding force, it is hard to make the case that what we call "right and wrong" have any more significance than what color shirt we choose to wear on a given day.

I wish to stress that I'm not making assumptions about Shadow's outlook - only taking this quote as the kind of thing an Atheist might say.

The word 'natural' is significent here - without wishing to attribute anything to the speaker, the mainstream Atheistic argument runs that natural science permits us to understand nature without the appeal to Divine intervention as an explanation for events. Hence, God is needless; hence, God does not exist.

This is not a very good argument: for you Classical logicians out there, it runs like this (apologies for incorrect notation):

Ax (xG -> xN)
: - Ex (xG)

A counter example would go: 'If something is a person, it is finless; therefore, there are no people'.

Reason I put that formally is to show clearly how deep the fallacy is, and that it is demonstrably so - not merely a matter of opinion or taste.

The other arguments in favour of Atheism succumb in much the same way: it is just not a rationally sustainable stance. Agnosticism, on the other hand, is rationally sustainable, and I believe that is beginning to be acknowledged in wider circles.
 
anome said:
As Emperor points out, Science is working on that one. Although, if you think about it a society in which everyone acted like a complete bastard would disintergrate quite quickly.

Yep you can play through various scenarios which show that in fact it is relatively self-regualting and will (with some instability) return to a cooperativ base state.

The whole Robber Baron thing depends on just about everyone else being cooperative and alturistic. Once it passes some kind of tipping point where people are being screwed over all the time they think "why should I bust my balls all day only to have it stolen form me?" and they become Robber Barons too. All of a sudden everyone is ripping everyone else off and the advantages of being a Robber Baron fade away and you'd be much better off in a more stable cooperative and alturistic society.

Soceties have evolved laws to help maintain this stability and religions are (at least partly) another way of helping with observance by creating a personal or punitive relationship with a god or gods. This is the whole principle of coram Deo - that you live your life "before the face of God":

http://www.the-highway.com/articleJuly99.html

http://www.ligonier.org/coramdeo.php

This "beforeness" feeds into various aspects like God's omniscience and the fact that he can be a vengeful and/or loving God depending on what is needed to get the job done.
 
Non-theism as opposed to atheism is perfectly rational.

One could just as well argue as people do, that you can't conclusively prove a negative.

As with ghost, telepathy etc people believe such things exists but they should provide evidence , not for me to prove the negative. anymore than for me to conclusively prove Santa Claus exists

For example, in a court of law, before a jury, you must postively provide evidence for a person's guilt.The innocent do not have to provide evidence for their innocence, although they may elect to do so.

Legends , myths etc are fine but I get along in the world without a "god" , thank you.
 
Alexius said:
It just seems to me that in an utterly godless, natural, universe, devoid of any guiding force, it is hard to make the case that what we call "right and wrong" have any more significance than what color shirt we choose to wear on a given day.

I wish to stress that I'm not making assumptions about Shadow's outlook - only taking this quote as the kind of thing an Atheist might say.
Actually, it seems exactly like the kind of thing a theist would say. (IE: That without a God, there is no need for us to be moral.)
ibid
The word 'natural' is significent here - without wishing to attribute anything to the speaker, the mainstream Atheistic argument runs that natural science permits us to understand nature without the appeal to Divine intervention as an explanation for events. Hence, God is needless; hence, God does not exist.

This is not a very good argument: for you Classical logicians out there, it runs like this (apologies for incorrect notation):

Ax (xG -> xN)
: - Ex (xG)

A counter example would go: 'If something is a person, it is finless; therefore, there are no people'.

You're leaving out a crucial axiom in each of the examples above.

In your claimed atheistic argument, you've left out a base axiom along the lines of Occam's Razor. IE: If something can be explained without recourse to unobserved phenomena, then the unobserved phenomena can be assumed to not exist. (OK, phrasing it that way makes it seem less like Occam's Razor, but it is similar in that it promotes simplification.)

In your second argument, the missing axiom seems to be that "People need to have fins to exist." I don't quite follow that.
 
As I'm now in the mood, here's another Atheistic mainstay:

Ax (x -> xE)
- gE
: - g (modus tollens)

In the language of people with lives and homes to go to:

'If something exists, then there is evidence for its existence; there is no evidence for God's existence: therefore, God does not exist.

This is a valid argument form; however, the problem lies with the opening premise: is it actually the case?

Two objections can be levelled:

Although the arguments in favour of the existence of God are inconclusive or fallacious, they do posit evidence, albeit controversial. For instance, the 'watchmaker's' argument may be ultimately inconclusive, but it does suggest that design in nature is evidence of a designer. Until that is definitively excluded (and the argument that it has been has already been killed off - see my previous post), the argument above cannot close.

The second objection would lie in our being able to demonstrate that a thing might exist without our knowing about it. Certainly, statements about the past and future may fall into this category; likewise, you cannot verify what make of keyboard I am using now by reading this post.

Given the means, of course you could; but then it maybe that we lack the means to verify the existence of God. That is our problem, and we really can't conclude anything from it.

This is controversial territory - folk following the Positivist tradition would reject it, while Bayesian thinkers would give their assent.

To sum up - this argument is one of the strongest Atheism has to offer, but it can be validly challenged. It's solution lies at the cutting edge of contempory logic, so we'll see what happens. :)
 
In your claimed atheistic argument, you've left out a base axiom along the lines of Occam's Razor. IE: If something can be explained without recourse to unobserved phenomena, then the unobserved phenomena can be assumed to not exist. (OK, phrasing it that way makes it seem less like Occam's Razor, but it is similar in that it promotes simplification.)


Sound objections there...I'll need a cig for this one ;)

OK, have lit up and inhaled deeply...first off, the 'people need fins to exist' objection.

'If there is a God, he is necessary, but God is needless: therefore, God doesn't exist'

Valid argument (modus tollens again) but God's being necessary is open to a lot of interpretation. Furthermore, God being needless as an explanation does not mean God is needless in fact.

Basicly, the matter remains open again.

Ockham's Razor...as you point out, it is open to interpretation. Your interpretation is a valid one, in currency, but the objection might be offered that it is a variation of 'if something is not necessary, it doesn't exist'.

Personally, I see the Raz as an ordering device - when we want to explore something, let's begin with the tangible and proven, before casting the net more widely.

I'm not going to say that the onus is on Atheists to make a definitive case, as I don't think it works that way. Rather, given the strength of the objections that can be made against the arguments at the heart of the Atheistic worldview, it is difficult to put it forward as the preferred rational choice.
 
Right as this has reached a point where people seem to be saying you need god for people to survive, atleast that is my interpretation of the moral view point being expounded, as christanity is 2000 years old, and
Dravidianism is estimated to have been practiced around 6,000 to 3,000 BCE
how did humanity survive to the point of inventing organised religion? and i do mean invent.
 
Actually, I don't know who said God was necessary - must have missed it. ;)

I guess the objection to 'if deistic religion has only been around a few thousand years, where was God before that' would be that religion may have been a feature of human life long before; that we lack the records to back that up does not exclude the possibility.

Also, it assumes 'no worship = no God'.
 
Entia non multi said:
Right as this has reached a point where people seem to be saying you need god for people to survive, atleast that is my interpretation of the moral view point being expounded, as christanity is 2000 years old, and

Dravidianism is estimated to have been practiced around 6,000 to 3,000 BCE

how did humanity survive to the point of inventing organised religion? and i do mean invent.

As Alexius has said its unclear if anyone has said that. I should really set out my stall a little clearer though:

The basic tenets of religion as set forth by the various Prophets are essentially codifications of principles that have been found to work and have been developed and refined over millenia - it is is possible that the emergence of civilisations (or at least the coordiantion of large groups) wasn't possible without these kinds of laws.

By rejecting (or at least be very sceptical about) God and organised religion atheists and agnotstics throw out the baby with the bathwater. Granted that organised religions tend to get corrupt and that God may just be a supernatural addon to help with the idea of observance but the underling principles are sound.

Although some people seem to be fine with a generally "godless" existence (I know I am although there is the occasional dark teatime of the soul about death, etc.*) it may be that without an explicit moral framework people are drifitng back into religion which is unsatisfatory for them (you can't make yourself believe) and corrosive for the religions. I know plenty of Catholics who practice birth contorl, are pro-choice and don't go to church very often which as far I'm concerned means you aren't really a Catholic.

So it should be possible to create a moral framework from what religion without the need for some essentially supernatural elements to force observance (if you don't have God you have reincarnation, etc. which works towards similar ends) or a heirarchy.

This needn't mean we have to replace the old Gods with new ones (Gaia, Mammon, etc.) either.

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* I'm planning on not dying but one of Cupitt's five principles for a kind of secular/god-free religion is Solar Living - because things are plastic and open to interpretation the more we put into society the more help shape it in our own image and that this provides both a focus and a kind of non-genetic immortality (hell even a kind of secular deity - as long as there are humans and a stable thriving civilisaiton people will remember Einstein, Newton, da Vinci, etc.).
 
Alexius said:
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I'm not going to say that the onus is on Atheists to make a definitive case, as I don't think it works that way. Rather, given the strength of the objections that can be made against the arguments at the heart of the Atheistic worldview, it is difficult to put it forward as the preferred rational choice.


I would say it is the overwhelming historical prevailing culture of irrational belief in theism that causes the difficulty in putting forward a dissenting view , not weakness in the arguments themselves.

Strong rational objections to atheism? Where?.
 
Originally posted by Emperor

By rejecting (or at least be very sceptical about) God and organised religion atheists and agnotstics throw out the baby with the bathwater. Granted that organised religions tend to get corrupt and that God may just be a supernatural addon to help with the idea of observance but the underling principles are sound.


I've nothing against having sound underlying principles or even organised religion . I just think these are not ultimately determined by some supernatural surrogate father type intelligence. Religion is the by-product of Man alone not god.
 
Rrose Selavy said:
Religion is the by-product of Man alone not god.

Quite right, what would God want religion for anyway?
 
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